235 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

Jestina wrote...

The rules didn't need to be simpler. People just need to stop being lazy. The problem was that with the coming of card games, the hobby got an influx of casual gamers that didn't want to be bothered with anything more complex than 1+1. AD&D doesn't use anything beyond simple mathematics skills. If I were introducing a new person to RPG's then I would go with something like Star Wars from GDW(not the atrocious WOTC version) then bring them into D&D. Paranoia was another system that was easy to grasp and it was a comical setting.

Its not about it "use simple mathematics" people being lazy, casual or stupid. Its about preference and the reviewer clearly does not have a preference some long dead ruleset to be able to play the game. That is who the review is written for and does not make them any less of a gamer then you.

[addiction21]

Jestina wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If to play a game you need to do research on how to play the game then that game has failed.

 You do realize that when this game came out, every gamer knew AD&D?

That is a load of bull****. Sorry for my candor but I know no other way to handle such self serving bull****.

[Jestina]

addiction21 wrote...
 That is who the review is written for and does not make them any less of a gamer then you.

That reviewer is clearly a moron. THACO is core to AD&D 2nd ed., the game system we used all the way through the 90's and BG came out right at the end of 2nd ed. cycle. 

[Il Divo]

addiction21 wrote...

Jestina wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
If to play a game you need to do research on how to play the game then that game has failed.

 You do realize that when this game came out, every gamer knew AD&D?

That is a load of bull****. Sorry for my candor but I know no other way to handle such self serving bull****.

This does beg the question: back in those days, how many other gaming genres actually had such barriers to entry?

Say we accept as true that everybody needs to read up on an in depth rule set to play an RPG. Well, did the FPS or Racing genre of those days require the same? Did playing Half-Life require extrensive knowledge of this sort?

If not, well we might have our answer as to why those style of games are less in fashion.

Much like how a movie rated R denies itself the younger demographic, a game which requires a longer term commitment to play is going to be more problematic than anything that's jump in and play.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:15 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Il Divo wrote...

The rules didn't need to be simpler, they just needed to be fun.

Yes!

Jestina wrote...

 You do realize that when this game came out, every gamer knew AD&D? Duh. There was no need for holding hands back then because we all knew 2nd. edition rules.

No!

[addiction21]

Jestina wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
 That is who the review is written for and does not make them any less of a gamer then you.

That reviewer is clearly a moron. THACO is core to AD&D 2nd ed., the game system we used all the way through the 90's and BG came out right at the end of 2nd ed. cycle. 

Clearly they are a moron and are such a terrible person for not knowing what THACO was.

I hate to be the one that needs to break it to you but you are not "the gamer". Not ever gamer has the same experiences, knowledge, or prefer the same things as you.

Get over yourself. You are not special because you played D&D in the 90's.

[Jestina]

Il Divo wrote...
This does beg the question: back in those days, how many other gaming genres actually had such barriers to entry?

 We did tend to be a lot more brainy back then. It was sort of an unofficial way of keeping out all the undesirables(you know ... like the jocks and other cliques that tended to pick us in school). When I was going to school, most gamers fit into the outcast crowd...those that tended to be bullied a lot and/or didn't fit into any other social crowd. We were those "weirdo kids." I was introduced to gaming through a classmates sister sometime in 88 or 89. Gaming wasn't exactly cool back then so we tended to be secretive.

[Jestina]

addiction21 wrote...
I hate to be the one that needs to break it to you but you are not "the gamer". Not ever gamer has the same experiences, knowledge, or prefer the same things as you.

If you're going to review something then you should know something about it...which the reviewer clearly does not.

Modifié par Jestina, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:38 .

[Cyonan]

Jestina wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
I hate to be the one that needs to break it to you but you are not "the gamer". Not ever gamer has the same experiences, knowledge, or prefer the same things as you.

If you're going to review something then you should know something about it...which the reviewer clearly does not.

If you're going to make a game then you should teach newer players the rules that it runs on, which clearly the game did not =P

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

This does beg the question: back in those days, how many other gaming genres actually had such barriers to entry?

Say we accept as true that everybody needs to read up on an in depth rule set to play an RPG. Well, did the FPS or Racing genre of those days require the same? Did playing Half-Life require extrensive knowledge of this sort?

If not, well we might have our answer as to why those style of games are less in fashion.

Much like how a movie rated R denies itself the younger demographic, a game which requires a longer term commitment to play is going to be more problematic than anything that's jump in and play.

I cant think of many other then hardcore simulators and maybe some in-depth 4x games.

Video games a genre born of pong, Pac-man, Donkey Kong and has thrived thru out the years on games and genres of games that don't require in depth knowledge to just be able to play is proof enough. That doesn't mean there cant be both but its clear one is more accepted then the other and that doesn't make those people who prefer one over the other stupid, lazy or casual.

[Il Divo]

Jestina wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
This does beg the question: back in those days, how many other gaming genres actually had such barriers to entry?

 We did tend to be a lot more brainy back then. It was sort of an unofficial way of keeping out all the undesirables(you know ... like the jocks and other cliques that tended to pick us in school). When I was going to school, most gamers fit into the outcast crowd...those that tended to be bullied a lot and/or didn't fit into any other social crowd. We were those "weirdo kids." I was introduced to gaming through a classmates sister sometime in 88 or 89. Gaming wasn't exactly cool back then so we tended to be secretive.

That's not what I'm getting at. Barrier of entry doesn't exclusively refer to the different cliques you might want to avoid.

Barrier of entry is the general awareness that how easily could someone who is a fan of X become involved in Y? From everything you're describing, it sounds like this narrow subset of RPGs alone suffers from this. If I'm an experienced racing game player, I could jump into an fps without any more difficulty than learning the new button commands.

Add on top of that, these RPGs aren't even taking the time to explain these rules within the game itself, which is the ultimate purpose of purchasing said product. It shouldn't exactly be surprising that a game which requires virtually no research to pick up and play is going to be experienced more than the game which you're demanding people go look up AD&D rulesets for.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:52 .

[addiction21]

Jestina wrote...


 We did tend to be a lot more brainy back then. It was sort of an unofficial way of keeping out all the undesirables(you know ... like the jocks and other cliques that tended to pick us in school).

http://www.escapistm...ith-Great-Power

Watch it, get over yourself and get over your childhood persecutions.

If you cant go to RPGcodex where the RPG master belongs and should never venture out of. All I see is the bullied who now wants to bully. You are as bad as those "undesirables" that mocked you because you were not like them.

Modifié par addiction21, 29 novembre 2013 - 02:00 .

[Jestina]

Il Divo wrote...
Add on top of that, these RPGs aren't even taking the time to explain these rules within the game itself, which is the ultimate purpose of purchasing said product. It shouldn't exactly be surprising that a game which requires virtually no research to pick up and play is going to be experienced more than the game which you're demanding people go look up AD&D rulesets for.

You have to realize that video games like this were made for the players that played those games p&p, so there was no need to expain anything or hold our hands. It's not like today where they try to make everything for casual players. If you're just going to gripe, criticize, and otherwise act disrespectfully about gaming history then something like this probably isn't for you.

[Il Divo]

Jestina wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Add on top of that, these RPGs aren't even taking the time to explain these rules within the game itself, which is the ultimate purpose of purchasing said product. It shouldn't exactly be surprising that a game which requires virtually no research to pick up and play is going to be experienced more than the game which you're demanding people go look up AD&D rulesets for.

You have to realize that video games like this were made for the players that played those games p&p, so there was no need to expain anything or hold our hands. It's not like today where they try to make everything for casual players. If you're just going to gripe, criticize, and otherwise act disrespectfully about gaming history then something like this probably isn't for you.

This coming from someone making all sorts of crap assertions about what constitutes an actual gamer?

Sorry, but you already revealed your bias. You were bullied as a child and it made you oh so bitter that it's kinda funny.

It's not acting disrespectfully to point out why the games you are attached to have failed to attract a larger audience. If Baldur's Gate was made for a minor subset of gamers, it's probably only going to attract a minor subset of gamers. Personally, I'm fine with the gaming industry's current state compared to your general perception of the average gamer. So you might want to take a look at your own griping for a bit.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2013 - 02:13 .

[Jestina]

Il Divo wrote...
It's not acting disrespectfully to point out why the games you are attached to have failed to attract a larger audience. If Baldur's Gate was made for a minor subset of gamers, it's probably only going to attract a minor subset of gamers.

So minor they remade it...and the original won a bunch of awards.

[addiction21]

Jestina wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
It's not acting disrespectfully to point out why the games you are attached to have failed to attract a larger audience. If Baldur's Gate was made for a minor subset of gamers, it's probably only going to attract a minor subset of gamers.

So minor they remade it...and the original won a bunch of awards.

Its not a remake. Its the same game with some extras. CoD and Battlefield have won copious amounts of awards so they must be some of the best games right?

It really is a minor subset no matter how full of themselves some fans are. How many games just like Baldur's Gate have been released since then?

I love those games but I wont delude myself into thinking I/we are anything more then we are.

[MerinTB]

The bar has just kept being lowered. It's like those picture based, touch screen monitors at fast food restaurants. Sure, it might improve worker performance, but that's by allowing monkeys to be able to fulfill orders.

[Jestina]

I think there's still enough gamers around with the desire for deep RPG's like we used to have. The problem is, getting developers to listen. It's all about greed now. How much money can they suck out of us. It used to feel like I got plenty of game for my dollar, now i'll just feel ripped off...unless I buy the game on sale.

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

The bar has just kept being lowered. It's like those picture based, touch screen monitors at fast food restaurants. Sure, it might improve worker performance, but that's by allowing monkeys to be able to fulfill orders.

First any monkey could do fast food work.

Second I worked years behind a register so anything to make customers more clear and concise is a boon.

Third I don't think there was a bar to ever begin with. TO me it boils down to some people liking one thing and others liking something else. That does not make one group monkeys.

Some of my favorite games are X-Com UFO defense and Terror from the deep. I do not look down on someone that dislikes their gameplay  nor would I say someone is a monkey for liking or preferring X-com Enemy Unkown over the previous.

[Isichar]

Boy, if the reviewer thought this game was bad I cant imagine how hard of a time he would have with games like The Witcher 2, Super Ghouls and Ghosts, and Resident Evil 2 which would just continually keep killing you at the start if you did not know what you were doing.

Personally I like games that force me to actually think and take time to learn the gameplay without it holding my hand, I find it more immersive and in the case of Baldurs Gate I think it adds an absurd amount of replay value.

[Cyonan]

Jestina wrote...

I think there's still enough gamers around with the desire for deep RPG's like we used to have. The problem is, getting developers to listen. It's all about greed now. How much money can they suck out of us. It used to feel like I got plenty of game for my dollar, now i'll just feel ripped off...unless I buy the game on sale.

If this were true, then I suspect the indie devs would be jumping at the genre like they did for the horror games that AAA publishers didn't care for due to not making enough money.

[Isichar]

Cyonan wrote...

Jestina wrote...

I think there's still enough gamers around with the desire for deep RPG's like we used to have. The problem is, getting developers to listen. It's all about greed now. How much money can they suck out of us. It used to feel like I got plenty of game for my dollar, now i'll just feel ripped off...unless I buy the game on sale.

If this were true, then I suspect the indie devs would be jumping at the genre like they did for the horror games that AAA publishers didn't care for due to not making enough money.

Umm... Project Eternity, torment tides of numenera. Either of these ringing a bell? There is clearly a demand for these kind of games and the people who are making them have repeatedly stated they wanted to make these kind of games too but just were not given a chance outside of crowd funding.

We were told there was not enough of a demand for a megaman game but look at how well that did with crowd funding.

Modifié par Isichar, 29 novembre 2013 - 04:37 .

[Il Divo]

Jestina wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
It's not acting disrespectfully to point out why the games you are attached to have failed to attract a larger audience. If Baldur's Gate was made for a minor subset of gamers, it's probably only going to attract a minor subset of gamers.

So minor they remade it...and the original won a bunch of awards.

Pretty much what Addiction said.

Try comparing the two side by side. It's virtually the same game, with barely a graphics update, aside from a few additional characters. The plot, gameplay, and cast are all the same. Even the positive reviews have gone out of their way to remark that the goodoldgames copy is a much better deal.

It's the same concept how old movies like Beauty and the Beast are getting remade in 3D. You have a movie which you don't have to pay for writers, voice actors, or anything, but people are still paying the price of a full ticket in order to see.

[Cyonan]

Isichar wrote...

Umm... Project Eternity, torment tides of numenera. Either of these ringing a bell? There is clearly a demand for these kind of games and the people who are making them have repeatedly stated they wanted to make these kind of games too but just were not given a chance outside of crowd funding.

We were told there was not enough of a demand for a megaman game but look at how well that did with crowd funding.

I had heard of the kickstarters(and admittedlty forgot about them while making that comment), although they have yet to be released.

Getting funded is a solid step, and they certainly got quite a bit over their goal.

What we'll have to see is how well they actually do once released. It could end up being a very niche thing which goes back to the main point, the fans are a minor subset of gamers in general.

At the very least, if they're using D&D rule sets I hope that they explain them in-game =P

Modifié par Cyonan, 29 novembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[Dominus]

That doesn't mean I think every game should go out of its way to be player friendly. The Witcher 2 and Dark Souls were pretty vague about their mechanics, and people seem to enjoy that. What I take issue with is the idea that if a person finds a classic of the genre too hard to get into, they're automatically considered dumb or lazy. It can't possibly be that the game in question is simply archaic, and may not hold the universal appeal its fans believe it should.

For me it's more of a difference in preference or taste in types of games. I'm always going to feel like there's a lack of control in your character for ones based on commanding your PC/NPCs and letting the roll of a die determine your hit over real-time physics and whatever coordination skill said player happens to have.

Having said that, I'll also agree that there was a balancing issue with baldur's gate, I didn't feel the same satisfaction in terms of abilities/skills as I would with Dragon Age. Most of the game was pretty awesome to me, though.

I would ROFL at some supposed gamer that doesn't know what THACO is.

Until a couple years ago, I didn't. I've been gaming for the last 26 years.  ¯\\(°_o)/¯

Modifié par DominusVita, 29 novembre 2013 - 04:57 .