416 réponses à ce sujet

[uv23]

Im a huge RPG nerd and I love Me, and ME2 looks amazing. I'd say there are four core aspects for a game to tickle me in the right spots:



1) Dialogue trees

2) Exploration

3) Character customization

4) Loot



ME2 has all of these things. What's not to love?

[Console Cowboy]

Ahglock wrote...

Memengwa wrote...

Kelanil wrote...

most likely the rpg "purists" are the same people who like playing jrpgs that haven't evolved story wise since the snes years.

Doubt it, since JRPGs are very different from the Western-style RPGs..

Though they are closer to a true RPG than ME2 is. 

Jesus, i hope not.

[todahouse21]

Ahglock wrote...

brunomalta wrote...

Nimander wrote...

"Dumbed Down" is one of the keywords of the RPG Elitist. For tabletop games, add stuff like 'It's like World of Warcraft!' nowadays (for 3E D&D it was 'Like Diablo!')

You saw it when the oWoD went to the nWoD. When D&D went to 3E and then again to 4E. When SR went to 4E.

It basically translates to 'They changed it, now it sucks! *BAWWW*' and so on. Ignore the 'dumbed down' statements and just have fun, is my advice.

But...but....D&D 4E is an abomination 

Truth.  4E D&D sucks.

As for the main point of the thread, other than where the OP is trying to insult  a gorup I really don't what is hard to understand.

Lets say RPG purists like A,B,C,and D.  They are not fans of W,X,Y,Z.

If ME2 developer says we reduced A to get more W, and you know we totally took out B, so we could fit in X, and we had a mix of C,d, and Y, Z elements.  Why should the RPG purists be happy.  Its like if someone doesn't like Horror movies and you keep saying why don't you like Let the Right one in, its still a good movie.  Not to them it isn't they don't like horror movies.

I like almost all games so hybrid games can be fun.

Still I'd say for me what makes a pure RPG is primarily creating a character and the characters abilities determine the level of success.  When your remove the characters abilities controlling the effect and change it to the players controller/mouse-keypad skills it is not really an RPG.  It might be a shooter with a good story, but it isn't really a RPG.  Mass effect 1 was going for a hybrid game so it didn't really hit that, ME2 is more solidly going hybrid instead of being an RPG with shooter elements.  I just don't consider hybrids RPGs they are a hybrid.

But that's my point! Ok I like A, B,C. You like D,E,F. That's fine! But we both agree, it's still a movie! I don't say "Oh there's no A, and they took out B and crapped on C! I don't consider this a movie anymore!" It's still a movie. I might not like it, but I can't say it's not a movie.

And seriously, my snarkiness is for the sake of humor. I'm not insulting anyone. If you want to call me a dumb gun jockey I'll laugh it off.

[Cadarin]

The argument that if you're the one who is aiming and shooting, then it's not really an RPG always makes me laugh. It's no different if you're playing a turn-based, isometric RPG. Regardless of whether its 1st or 3rd person, you're still the one who's controlling your party. They will die without you.

Put no skill points into sniper rifles and try to go through all of Mass Effect only using that weapon. Then come back and tell me that the stats don't matter.

[Malastare-]

todahouse21 wrote...

Is it the lack of grind? Of random encounters? Of prepubescent teens and effeminate heroes saving the world?

What is it?

Why did you add this?  You ask a group for their opinion, and then proceed to antagonize them.  How would you respond if I asked:  "What is it that you like about shooters?  Is it the mindless spraying of bullets?  Is it the testosterone drenched display of dominance?  Or do you like to pretend that you have real world skills?"  Were you trying to be inflamatory?  Did you think that would make you look better or more superior?  Do you like it when people insult your opinions?

I'm going to assume that you were just typing without thinking and I'll ignore that part.  Moving on:

I don't honestly have any problem with shooters.  I own a number of them.  I prefer RPGs.  I enjoy pure RPGs.  I also enjoy mixing RPG elements with other genres.

todahouse21 wrote...

It obviously doesn't have anything to do with challenge, since its been
stated that this game was specifically made to be harder than the
original. It's not the actual role playing as Shepard is pretty much
define by your decisions. It's not the exploration. 

FPS/TPS fans often guage a game by how difficult it is.  This is an aspect that doesn't translate directly into RPG culture.  In a shooter, difficulty is often increased by adding more enemies, giving people less time to react to them, or forcing you to keep moving.  Most (pure) RPG fans see this as "shallow" difficulty.  Fighting four ogres instead of three isn't usually seen as better, and excessive application of the rule leads to boredom.  Instead, most RPG fans want to see more variety.

As I see it, the difference between shooter and RPG boil down to one main thing: in RPGs, the "action" is in the planning and in shooters the "action" is in the doing.  I find the former more enjoyable than the latter, especially on consoles where the aiming mechanism is abysmal.  I find it more fun to pick a squad with specific strengths and weaknesses and then use those attributes to resolve an encounter than to have a squad of people who fit my personal desires and to have my reaction time tested by a computer.  I can see why people would disagree.  Anyone who can't see why someone would like something they don't really shouldn't be discussing those things, anyway.

You'll see that same pattern repeated in discussions about ME's RPG nature.  Many RPG fans disliked the Mako because it was an empty challenge.  It bounced.  You could make it jump.  It could climb up insane cliffs (and yet, not the ridiculous cliffs which are apparently commonplace in the universe).  But there was no thought.  No planning.  No decisions.  No compromises.

I'm all for improving the combat in ME, but I'm on the fence about the removal of skill-based aiming.  It makes shooter fans happy, because they get their twitch and they can prove their suitability as a mate,  but for RPG fans, practicing how to aim is boring and as an alliance Spectre, my ability to shoot a Geth Trooper should not be limited by the joystick sensitivity of an XBox controller.  Still, so long as a strong auto-aim is available and you can still pause-and-look, I'll have no real problems with it.

Similarly, I like the more complex enemy defenses.  It forces me to think about how to solve problems and lets me come up with different solutions.  I'm disappointed that they chose to make the Soldier an answer to all problems, though.  Still, it doesn't really upset me because I just won't be playing a soldier (boring).  I will prefer the adepts and engineers, because I want to spend more time thinking about how to play the game and less time focusing on the fine motor control of joysticking a crosshair into position.

[Willie_on_Wheels]

I play rpgs almost exclusively, and I love ME. From what I've seen of ME2, I think I'll love it too. I've always defined RPG's by their focus on storytelling and dialogue.

[Arrtis]

unless we have auto battle we program their attacks for combat...thinking FF12...

[Mister Mage]

Now, I love 2D isometric RPGs that have turn-based combat on a grid. But that's not what Mass Effect is trying to be, and I'm not going to dictate what it should or should not try to do. Something different, a bit of variety, is always good.



I'm not sure if I'll know if I like the ME2 changes until I play it. You can easily see that a good majority of the changes are meant to strip away time in menus and the interface. A lot of people take this as dumbing it down, but I don't see any indication that balance is thrown out the window. It may end up like Oblivion, which essentially made the Elder Scrolls series turn stupid.



As long as my sister that doesn't read or listen to anything still gets stuck all the time, I'll have a chance of being happy.

[Nimander]

Not even going to argue D&D 4E, rather than to say I like it.



However, I will say that the arguments about ME2 do feel a lot like varies Tabletop RPG arguments. Usually by the same sort of people whose argument gets down to: 1) I don't like it, so it's objectively bad, and 2) They changed it, so it sucks. Sometimes combined with 3) Mainstream is automatically icky and dumb.



Just my 2c.

[Mister Mage]

Nimander wrote...
3) Mainstream is automatically icky and dumb.

To be fair, this is generally correct.  The number of indie games I play and love in a given year always far outnumber the big AAA titles.

[Memengwa]

Mister Mage wrote...

Now, I love 2D isometric RPGs that have turn-based combat on a grid. But that's not what Mass Effect is trying to be, and I'm not going to dictate what it should or should not try to do. Something different, a bit of variety, is always good.

I'm not sure if I'll know if I like the ME2 changes until I play it. You can easily see that a good majority of the changes are meant to strip away time in menus and the interface. A lot of people take this as dumbing it down, but I don't see any indication that balance is thrown out the window. It may end up like Oblivion, which essentially made the Elder Scrolls series turn stupid.

As long as my sister that doesn't read or listen to anything still gets stuck all the time, I'll have a chance of being happy.

I agree with what you're saying.

ME is not trying to be a pure RPG, and isn't really trying to be a pure FPS either. For now I'm following my "camly wait and see" policy.  Personly I really don't see all the panic people seem to be having. BioWare is experimenting, yes. But I'm curious what the gameplay will be like. So much anger and panic... I choose to be happy instead.

The only thing I hated in ME was the hacking minigame... (I can't stand minigames at all), but I hope I will be able to circumvent them somehow.

I don't know about you, but either way I'm planning to have a blast with the game. So there.

[Domber121]

While I am keeping an open mind I can see how many people are upset. There are tons of great shooters out there and more keep coming out all the time. Great RPGs on the other hand, you are lucky if more than one great RPG comes out in any given year. So to take away some RPG to add more shooter in ME2 is to take away what is rare and put in what is common. But I'm still not going to make a call on this myself untill I play the game.

[Ahglock]

todahouse21 wrote...


But that's my point! Ok I like A, B,C. You like D,E,F. That's fine! But we both agree, it's still a movie! I don't say "Oh there's no A, and they took out B and crapped on C! I don't consider this a movie anymore!" It's still a movie. I might not like it, but I can't say it's not a movie.

And seriously, my snarkiness is for the sake of humor. I'm not insulting anyone. If you want to call me a dumb gun jockey I'll laugh it off.

Okay, so going back to a Horror mvoie example.  If you remove the gore, reduce the startling moments, reduce and remove all pshcological supsense and terror.  And then you add a bunch of slap stick comedy, one liners and impausible action is it a horror movie still.  Sure it is still a movie, but is it a horror movie.

That is what an RPG purist sees with ME2, they removed and reduded the elements they like(the RPG elements), and added or increased the elements they don't like( the shooter elements).  Sure its still a game, that does not make is a RPG though.

As I said before for me the primary element of a RPG is that the characters abilities are what determines there success in a skill, not the players.  Mass Effect 2 removed virtually all of that, which makes it hard for me to see it as a RPG. Same as Fallout 3(I heard 1 and 2 were more rpg like but i never played them.) or Oblivion.(Morrowind and previous elder scrolls were more RPG like)

[Console Cowboy]

Ahglock you're missing out on the first two Fallouts. two of the best digital RPGs ever coded, i think.

[todahouse21]

Ahglock wrote...

todahouse21 wrote...


But that's my point! Ok I like A, B,C. You like D,E,F. That's fine! But we both agree, it's still a movie! I don't say "Oh there's no A, and they took out B and crapped on C! I don't consider this a movie anymore!" It's still a movie. I might not like it, but I can't say it's not a movie.

And seriously, my snarkiness is for the sake of humor. I'm not insulting anyone. If you want to call me a dumb gun jockey I'll laugh it off.

Okay, so going back to a Horror mvoie example.  If you remove the gore, reduce the startling moments, reduce and remove all pshcological supsense and terror.  And then you add a bunch of slap stick comedy, one liners and impausible action is it a horror movie still.  Sure it is still a movie, but is it a horror movie.

That is what an RPG purist sees with ME2, they removed and reduded the elements they like(the RPG elements), and added or increased the elements they don't like( the shooter elements).  Sure its still a game, that does not make is a RPG though.

As I said before for me the primary element of a RPG is that the characters abilities are what determines there success in a skill, not the players.  Mass Effect 2 removed virtually all of that, which makes it hard for me to see it as a RPG. Same as Fallout 3(I heard 1 and 2 were more rpg like but i never played them.) or Oblivion.(Morrowind and previous elder scrolls were more RPG like)

Touche' my good man (or woman)!

[izmirtheastarach]

I still don't feel like they made the came more of a shooter. They have simply made the shooter combat better.

[Ahglock]

Nimander wrote...

Not even going to argue D&D 4E, rather than to say I like it.

However, I will say that the arguments about ME2 do feel a lot like varies Tabletop RPG arguments. Usually by the same sort of people whose argument gets down to: 1) I don't like it, so it's objectively bad, and 2) They changed it, so it sucks. Sometimes combined with 3) Mainstream is automatically icky and dumb.

Just my 2c.

No 4e just sucks.  But it is still a RPG, just  a sucky one.

1.  Well duh, I am the center of the universe.(the center of the universe is dyslexic so nothingis organized)
2. I like good changes, I don't like bad changes.  2e to 3e, I prefer AC going up becuase late at night I can add easier than I can subtract.  But THACO was not as bad as some say.  3e to 4e, I like the attempt at a better balance the execution sucked, the bland sameness of everyone made the game boring.  Also way too many HP, fights took forever.
3.  I frequently prefer mainstream I want to be entertaied, not have a flase sense of superiority because of my alternative tastes.

[Ahglock]

Console Cowboy wrote...

Ahglock you're missing out on the first two Fallouts. two of the best digital RPGs ever coded, i think.

people keep telling me that, I don't know how I missed them when they came out.  Now I doubt they will work on my system.  The earlier elder scrolls no longer will, only morrowind+ will.  I'm suffering under a 64bit operating system curse.  Apparently, those games are not desinged to deal with it.

[todahouse21]

Fallout 1 & 2 were good stuff.

[Kalfear]

todahouse21 wrote...

Why is it that there is seemingly a crowd out there that feel that the game is somehow lessened because it doesn't specifically meet the specifications to make it a pure RPG?

 Call me crazy but as long as its fun, the can call the genre Bob and I wouldn't care.

It obviously doesn't have anything to do with challenge, since its been stated that this game was specifically made to be harder than the original. It's not the actual role playing as Shepard is pretty much define by your decisions. It's not the exploration. 

Is it the lack of grind? Of random encounters? Of prepubescent teens and effeminate heroes saving the world?

What is it?

Oh spare me on the stupidity (lack of grind). I played Halo and that was nothing but grind, infact every single shooter Ive ever tried been 99% grind. Bioware added ALOT of needless shooter aspects to this game so if anything they have INCREASED the grind, not lessened it.

Course I dont concider story and character development grind, you probably do.

You dont know (and neither do I) If this game better or worse, so I REALLY wish you pinheaded shooter fans would stop making broad claim this game better. You dont know that, none of us do and we cant take Bioware on their word about this. Bioware hinted and suggested DA:O would have nudity in its love sceens in DA:O. Now we see that was to create a stir and add sales, nudity was never in the plans. Bioware will make any claim to sell more games so their sweeping statements that more shooter/less brains = better is suspect at best right now.

Random encounters? more rocket scientist nonsence from the idiot gallery. Tell me, what random encounters were in ME1? I consider ME1 to be the BEST RPG of all time. Floors all yours, going to back up your nonsence with fact? Didnt think so!

Here ill make it really simple as I dont think you can understand anything else (which is part of the reason programing a game for you and yours not a great or challenging process).

The true worth of any RPG is variety. In ME1 we both could make soldiers but because of how you build that soldier, my soldier would be vastly different then your soldier, and thats a good thing. In ME2, with the removal of all weapon skills and decryption skills, we are left with a cookie cutter soldier that EXACTLY the same as everyone elses cookie cutter soldier. Master Cheif fromHalo all over again.

I DONT WANT TO PLAY YOUR IDEA OF A SOLDIER, I want to play my own idea of a soldier with MY OWN choice of what weapons (and other skills) im skilled in!

Cant make it any clearler (or dumbed down) for you! Thats why much (not all) of the changes sound bad and ruin game!

This is suppose to be a RPG/Shooter, not a Shooter/RPG

With the proposed changes, the game is simply lesser then it was in its original format! 

[Mister Mage]

Memengwa wrote...
I agree with what you're saying.

ME is not trying to be a pure RPG, and isn't really trying to be a pure FPS either. For now I'm following my "camly wait and see" policy.  Personly I really don't see all the panic people seem to be having. BioWare is experimenting, yes. But I'm curious what the gameplay will be like. So much anger and panic... I choose to be happy instead.

The thing is, Bioware isn't even abandoning more pure RPGs.  Dragon Age was released fairly recently, and it has a lot of the hallmarks of a western RPG.  It's 

I don't know about you, but either way I'm planning to have a blast with the game. So there.

I plan to.  Sometimes plans don't work out, but we'll see.  Bioware, unlike Bethesda, hasn't quite let me down yet.

Ahglock wrote...

Console Cowboy wrote...

Ahglock you're missing out on the first two Fallouts. two of the best digital RPGs ever coded, i think.

people keep telling me that, I don't know how I missed them when they came out.  Now I doubt they will work on my system.  The earlier elder scrolls no longer will, only morrowind+ will.  I'm suffering under a 64bit operating system curse.  Apparently, those games are not desinged to deal with it.

The Steam and GOG versions work perfectly fine on my and my friend's 64bit operating systems.  I suggest GOG personally.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

todahouse21 wrote...

Why is it that there is seemingly a crowd out there that feel that the game is somehow lessened because it doesn't specifically meet the specifications to make it a pure RPG?

 Call me crazy but as long as its fun, the can call the genre Bob and I wouldn't care.

It obviously doesn't have anything to do with challenge, since its been stated that this game was specifically made to be harder than the original. It's not the actual role playing as Shepard is pretty much define by your decisions. It's not the exploration. 

Is it the lack of grind? Of random encounters? Of prepubescent teens and effeminate heroes saving the world?

What is it?

Personally what annoys me about ME2 from an RPG standpoint is that you can't really build your character in your own way.  If you pick a class, you will play it the way the class is meant to be played.  The very minor differences you make in the order you select your abilities does not provide enough diversity.


I'd much rather they had one class that allowed you to build it with all the abilities in mind.  Sure the potential for an overpowered character is much higher but it allows you to play the character they way you want rather than the way the class wants you to.

Other than that, the deemphasis on customizing your party members and the lack of an ability to directly control party members is disturbing.  I like going through my items and equipping each character just right, and in battle I like being able to have more control over combat.  One of my biggest pet peeves in ME1 was the squad AI was dumb as nails and there was no real way to have them do anything useful.

I still will like the game, but the only hook it has in me is the Story and fiction. (Which Bioware seems to be playing pretty fast and loose with.  Eg Adding Heatsinks, Adding new alien races all willy nilly then rationalizing it by "Oh you've just never seen, heard or read about them before".)  The combat has potential to be entertaining but purely because I enjoy shooters as well.  As was with ME1, I feel abilities will be supplementary to the shooting rather than the actual focus of the game. (That's the equivalent of your basic attacks in Dragon Age being more important than talent usage)

They've removed a lot of the depth when it comes to statistics and customization (although the new armour customization is very much welcome) and while I'm really excited for the game I don't consider it to be much of an RPG, more of a shooter with an RPG framework.

[English Cooper]

I don't think it can all be attributed to purists, as with any game that has sequels people are worried that it will loose that special something that made the first game so great and memorable, it is often a different thing for different people, for example what made the game for me was (as with most RPGs is the choices and character interaction.. small things like the talking in elevators that made it for just a brief moment seem like they were a team) but for others it may have been the ability to mould your Shepard into what you desire.. a Jerk with mad Sniper skills.. or a hero with mad Biotic skills.. and as with all sequels things will be changed and some won't like the change others will, no game ever in the history and future of man will or has ever appealed to every gamer and satisfied everybody fully. trying to do so would drive companies bankrupt and developers to mass suicide.. so they do what the main demographic wants to make the most people they can happy.