310 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Do you even realize the dalish are acting more like a street gang then a noble people? They're living by their own rules, have contempt for the society they live in, and kill people for coming on their "turf" even if they had no idea they were doing so in the first place.

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Elves try to go to war against humans in a large rebellion only to lose and face worse prejudice than before.

As far as the Dalish go, I don't see any other outcome. Their numbers are far too few, and elves are the frailest race in Thedas. The only way they could have any chance of claiming a home for themselves is if the Inquisitor and the entirety of the Inquisition helps them directly. 

Or they and the city elves could sell their souls to the Qun and lose their culture in the process.

Or they could just...ya know, leave.

And go where, exactly? They're already entirely nomadic.

South of fereldan seems like a nice place to go.

Somehow I doubt it. If there was an inhabitable area where they could settle without fear of being subjugated or attacked, they wouldn't be nomads.

Do you understand why certain cultures adopt nomadic lifestyles? It's because circumstance forces them to do so in order to survive. There's either a lack of resources or they're forcibly driven away.

[Cainhurst Crow]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Dalish origin shows a very different tale though, one of rationalized murder out of petty revenge. Zatharin unleashed a hellish plague onto the world out of such petty vengeance as well, even hundreds of years later against people he never even knew or met before.

Frankly, the dalish with their sense self-righteous moral relativism allowing them to "justify" having a more ruthless mentality then the supposedly evil humans they pick fight against.

Because one Dalish = Every Dalish right? Also the Dalish didn't know about Zathrians curse.

Your accusations are pretty flimsy. 

And then there are the DA2 dalish, who fluxuate between "we would kill you if not for the keeper" and "you should just go **** off"

[ImperatorMortis]

Morocco Mole wrote...

How are the Dalish at fault for human stupidity and racism

because of elven stupidity and racism.

"Waah! But they started it! "Waah!" is what all of this boils down to. 

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do you even realize the dalish are acting more like a street gang then a noble people? They're living by their own rules, have contempt for the society they live in, and kill people for coming on their "turf" even if they had no idea they were doing so in the first place.

Humans do this as well. 

Also they don't have contempt for the society they live in. They live in Dalish society, not human society. 

Darth Brotarian wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Dalish origin shows a very different tale though, one of rationalized murder out of petty revenge. Zatharin unleashed a hellish plague onto the world out of such petty vengeance as well, even hundreds of years later against people he never even knew or met before.

Frankly, the dalish with their sense self-righteous moral relativism allowing them to "justify" having a more ruthless mentality then the supposedly evil humans they pick fight against.

Because one Dalish = Every Dalish right? Also the Dalish didn't know about Zathrians curse.

Your accusations are pretty flimsy. 

And then there are the DA2 dalish, who fluxuate between "we would kill you if not for the keeper" and "you should just go **** off"

But isn't the Keeper a Dalish, and she didn't want to kill you. Infact she treated you with hospitality. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 30 novembre 2013 - 01:58 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Elves try to go to war against humans in a large rebellion only to lose and face worse prejudice than before.

As far as the Dalish go, I don't see any other outcome. Their numbers are far too few, and elves are the frailest race in Thedas. The only way they could have any chance of claiming a home for themselves is if the Inquisitor and the entirety of the Inquisition helps them directly. 

Or they and the city elves could sell their souls to the Qun and lose their culture in the process.

Or they could just...ya know, leave.

And go where, exactly? They're already entirely nomadic.

South of fereldan seems like a nice place to go.

Somehow I doubt it. If there was an inhabitable area where they could settle without fear of being subjugated or attacked, they wouldn't be nomads.

Do you understand why certain cultures adopt nomadic lifestyles? It's because circumstance forces them to do so in order to survive. There's either a lack of resources or they're forcibly driven away.

Some are nomadic out of tradition, adhering to their own cultural beliefs and lifestyles not suited for the western ideal of settling in one area forever.

But as for why the dalish haven't moved already, the answer to that is quite simple. They are clinging to the past. They want the dales back, and they won't settle for just going somewhere they might be more welcome, or doing things to make themselves more welcome. No, they'd rather be ****s, killing people as they go along, or otherwise avoiding anyone like the plague as to keep up the facade of a wounded people instead of just calling themselves for the indignant mooping that it is.

So the reason they stay in fereldan is because they don't want to move on with their life. They'd rather cling to what they used to have then accepting what they have now.

[Cainhurst Crow]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

How are the Dalish at fault for human stupidity and racism

because of elven stupidity and racism.

"Waah! But they started it! "Waah!" is what all of this boils down to. 

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do you even realize the dalish are acting more like a street gang then a noble people? They're living by their own rules, have contempt for the society they live in, and kill people for coming on their "turf" even if they had no idea they were doing so in the first place.

Humans do this as well. 

Also they don't have contempt for the society they live in. They live in Dalish society, not human society. 

Darth Brotarian wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Dalish origin shows a very different tale though, one of rationalized murder out of petty revenge. Zatharin unleashed a hellish plague onto the world out of such petty vengeance as well, even hundreds of years later against people he never even knew or met before.

Frankly, the dalish with their sense self-righteous moral relativism allowing them to "justify" having a more ruthless mentality then the supposedly evil humans they pick fight against.

Because one Dalish = Every Dalish right? Also the Dalish didn't know about Zathrians curse.

Your accusations are pretty flimsy. 

And then there are the DA2 dalish, who fluxuate between "we would kill you if not for the keeper" and "you should just go **** off"

But isn't the Keeper a Dalish, and she didn't want to kill you. Infact she treated you with hospitality. 

As you said, one dalish can't be used to judge them all.

Your evidence is looking rather flimsy.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

How are the Dalish at fault for human stupidity and racism

because of elven stupidity and racism.

If humans are incapable of distinguishing between Dalish and City elves, as Darth Brotarian suggests, then humans are complete ****ing morons. Anyone who allows their perception of an ethnic group to be swayed by individual encounters is an idiot and deserves nothing but criticism.

The Dalish at least have the excuse of rarely encountering humans. But humans live alongside elves and see them every day. They should absolutely know better.

[Br3admax]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

How are the Dalish at fault for human stupidity and racism

because of elven stupidity and racism.

"Waah! But they started it! "Waah!" is what all of this boils down to. 

Isn't that exactly what you're side just said? It's okay for elves to blame humans, but not the other way around? 

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do you even realize the dalish are acting more like a street gang then a noble people? They're living by their own rules, have contempt for the society they live in, and kill people for coming on their "turf" even if they had no idea they were doing so in the first place.

Humans do this as well. 

Also they don't have contempt for the society they live in. They live in Dalish society, not human society. 

That really doesn't change anything. Gangs make their own society in contempt for the one they left. Just like here. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 30 novembre 2013 - 02:01 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Hang on a sec.

@ImperatorMortis "But humans do this to"

And when humans do this we call them gangs and criminals and try to put a stop to it, not give them sovereignty over their self-proclaimed turf.

But when the elves do it they're justified and noble and righteous for doing so? Go buzz off you hypocrite.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Plaintiff wrote...
But humans live alongside elves and see them every day. They should absolutely know better.

Your typical human too busy to be involved in matters of politics and the like only knows them as hostile whiny layabouts reminiscing of their lost glories.

Modifié par Inquisitor Recon, 30 novembre 2013 - 02:05 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I hope we get to treat city elves and dalish elves differently. They're two different groups, and having them clumped together into a single group we deal with would really make the issue dull.

It'd basically reduce any sort of complex story into a black and white race war.

[TK514]

Plaintiff wrote...
How are the Dalish at fault for human stupidity and racism?

If someone regards an entire race negatively because of an encounter they had with an individual (or even several individuals) of that race, then that person is an ignorant bigot, plain and simple.

I am saving this for later.  This things that can be done with this quote.  We can justify every side of every debate on these forums at will with this quote alone.

[ImperatorMortis]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Hang on a sec.

@ImperatorMortis "But humans do this to"

And when humans do this we call them gangs and criminals and try to put a stop to it, not give them sovereignty over their self-proclaimed turf.

Are you trying to tell me that there aren't legit human organizations that wouldn't kill certain people just for trespassing? That just strikes me as naive.

But when the elves do it they're justified and noble and righteous for doing so? Go buzz off you hypocrite.

>salty

Also I never said they were noble or righteous, and I certainly never said that every time they've done it was justified. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 30 novembre 2013 - 02:08 .

[BlueMagitek]

I hope that the City Elves catch a break this time around. Even a CE Warden only helps so much (eventual rage against the newly uplifted City Elves).

Perhaps the Divine could be persuaded to add the interpretation of the old Divine that elves need to do more than survive, but be integrated?

[sandalisthemaker]

One thing is certain.
The elves should certainly not be picking fights unless they suddenly acquire powerful friends.

[TK514]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I hope that the City Elves catch a break this time around. Even a CE Warden only helps so much (eventual rage against the newly uplifted City Elves).

Perhaps the Divine could be persuaded to add the interpretation of the old Divine that elves need to do more than survive, but be integrated?

You're in for it now.  "How dare you suggest that Elves and humans should be integrated, you elf hater.  You just want to see elven genocide, with them having to live and coexist, and gods forbid maybe make their own choice to procreate with humans!  You are an evil racist elf hater, you integrator you. You're a bigot, and you make me sick."

[Medhia Nox]

I'm curious what the appeal is of the elves of Thedas... is it just that they're elves? Is it that they're a downtrodden people?

The appeal of City Elves - is the very fact that I think it rather bold to make a subservient race to highlight prejudice. Removing alienages and prejudice permanently would make me rather ambivalent to the race.

The Dalish I find to be some of the most basic forms of fantasy stereotyping of the noble savage. Not a fan of them at all - and have found them rather worthy of being hunted down. I haven't destroyed any of their clans (I left Merrill stupified and alone in her house staring at a broken heirloom) - but neither do I feel any strange kinship for them.

I'm just curious what the actual appeal of "these" elves is.

[Lebanese Dude]

TK514 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
If someone regards an entire race negatively because of an encounter they had with an individual (or even several individuals) of that race, then that person is an ignorant bigot, plain and simple.

I am saving this for later.  This things that can be done with this quote.  We can justify every side of every debate on these forums at will with this quote alone.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

He's right.

Modifié par Lebdood, 30 novembre 2013 - 02:13 .

[ImperatorMortis]

TK514 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I hope that the City Elves catch a break this time around. Even a CE Warden only helps so much (eventual rage against the newly uplifted City Elves).

Perhaps the Divine could be persuaded to add the interpretation of the old Divine that elves need to do more than survive, but be integrated?

You're in for it now.  "How dare you suggest that Elves and humans should be integrated, you elf hater.  You just want to see elven genocide, with them having to live and coexist, and gods forbid maybe make their own choice to procreate with humans!  You are an evil racist elf hater, you integrator you. You're a bigot, and you make me sick."

Well to play devils advocate interbreeding with humans is a sort of gentle genocide when it comes to the elves thing. Though I'm planning on having my fem elf get with Cassandra so I really have no say in this. 

[ImperatorMortis]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm curious what the appeal is of the elves of Thedas... is it just that they're elves? Is it that they're a downtrodden people?

The appeal of City Elves - is the very fact that I think it rather bold to make a subservient race to highlight prejudice. Removing alienages and prejudice permanently would make me rather ambivalent to the race.

The Dalish I find to be some of the most basic forms of fantasy stereotyping of the noble savage. Not a fan of them at all - and have found them rather worthy of being hunted down. I haven't destroyed any of their clans (I left Merrill stupified and alone in her house staring at a broken heirloom) - but neither do I feel any strange kinship for them.

I'm just curious what the actual appeal of "these" elves is.

Meh.. For city elves they don't really have much an appeal for me other than the fact that they're not human, and I never play a human in a fantasy game(if I can help it). Plus the extra boost to magic is a plus. 

I like the Dalish elves though. Their culture is interesting to me, and I like how proud they are.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 30 novembre 2013 - 02:19 .

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Some are nomadic out of tradition, adhering to their own cultural beliefs and lifestyles not suited for the western ideal of settling in one area forever.

A tradition that only started because their options were keep moving or die.

But as for why the dalish haven't moved already, the answer to that is quite simple. They are clinging to the past. They want the dales back, and they won't settle for just going somewhere they might be more welcome, or doing things to make themselves more welcome. No, they'd rather be ****s, killing people as they go along, or otherwise avoiding anyone like the plague as to keep up the facade of a wounded people instead of just calling themselves for the indignant mooping that it is.

So you speak for all the Dalish clans now? You realise they were perfectly happy to accept the offer of land made by the ruler of Ferelden? Obviously they're not so hung up on the Dales that they will accept nothing less. If the results of the boon hadn't been so negative (keeping in mind that we don't know exactly what they are), the Dalish clan might've opted to stay, and more might've moved there.

So the reason they stay in fereldan is because they don't want to move on with their life. They'd rather cling to what they used to have then accepting what they have now.

I assume you mean the reason they don't stay, because the Dalish move around.

Saying that their interest in their past is somehow responsible for their failure to advance is just utterly stupid. All cultures "cling" to their pasts. The past holds valuable lessons. We put our past in special buildings and charge people money to come and look at it. History is taught at universities, people make entire careers out of it.

There's nothing "wrong" or "backward" about the Dalish trying to recleaim their lost knowledge; there's useful stuff in there. The knowledge of how to make wooden armour and weapons that are as tough as steel, the knowledge of how to fix and operate a teleportation device, who knows what else. This stuff is important, it could improve their lives dramatically. And they're supposed to just ignore it because it's "in the past"?

"Accept what they have now"? Do you give this advice to every disenfranchised minority? What the elves have now is subjugation and oppression, with no hope of advancing beyond positions of servitude, or even of living outside their squalid shtetls, with no protection from the rampant abuse of the human majority. They're not even allowed to carry weapons to defend themselves in the event of an attack. Why should they accept that? Why should anyone ever accept that?