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[Erez Kristal]

JasonShepard wrote...

erezike wrote...

- there is also the part where anderson say if shepard wasnt on an off grid mission doing god knows what god knows where.(shepard never went off grid for more than a few hours in mass effect 2)

I know this is only a minor thing, but I disagree. Shepard was off the grid for most of ME2 - he only ever checked in when you visited the Citadel, and unless you did that every other mission, then "Away, working with a terrorist organisation" is legitimately off the grid.

Anyway, let's get into timeline stuff:

Retribution has to take place after the Suicide Mission. TIM directly references getting tech from the Collector Base (although it's ambiguous over whether or not the base was blown up). Judging by Anderson not referencing Shepard having been arrested, but instead simply being off the grid, this is before Shepard has been taken in by the Alliance.

Therefore Retribution takes place during the ME2 endgame. (Which I consider to be all of the time between the Suicide Mission and Shepard being grounded by the Alliance.) During the ME2 endgame, stuff on the Citadel and Omega are unchanging compared to how they were just before the Suicide Mission.
ME2's endgame doesn't really have plot content - it's just there for you to finish up any remaining missions. So it wouldn't recognise stuff like Grayson tearing through Omega, or Cerberus being attacked. Those things simply aren't in game - presumably because Retribution was written after ME2 was released.

Arrival can take place anytime between Horizon and ME2's endgame. It's entirely up to the player. For the purposes of the Vega-Omega comic, however, Arrival takes place 3 days before Shepard is grounded. This will be non-canon for anyone that didn't do Arrival as the very last thing in ME2. (Since the comic is only a few pages long, I think you're being picky if that bothers you. Dragon Age has done entire books that will be non-canon for some players.)

Which just leaves Anderson's comment within Retribution that Shepard is off-the-grid. As I've said, Retribution is post-Suicide-Mission, and one of TIM's scenes implies Shepard is no longer with Cerberus, so where is Shepard? What is this off-the-grid mission?

Does it matter?

Depending on your playthrough, it could be anything from LotSB, Overlord, spare Loyalty Missions, Arrival, or just getting drunk on Illium. Presumably it was left ambiguous because they hadn't yet decided how they were going to join ME2 to ME3. Karpyshyn needed a non-specific reason for Shepard to be unavailable. Off-the-grid just means "Whatever you had Shepard doing during the ME2 endgame."

shepard seems to be able to recieve emails on a regualr basis from various people. basicly shepard recieves emails after every mission. including n7 missions.  hackett even speaks with shepard directly on a direct link. so no shepard was only off grid for three occasions on mass effect.
1) overlord. when the vi turned off communication.
2) sucide mission. beyond the omega 4 relay. only people with qunatem communication could reach shepard
3) arrival mission where shepard is passed out.

way, working with a terrorist organisation" is legitimately off the grid.- working with a terror organization means someone is working with a terror organization. this is why anderson was still able to chitchat with shepard several times during the time shepard was working with cerberus.

-yes places are unchange due to gameplay limitations. but we cannot apply video game logic to let this one of the hook. especially when we are talking about video game logic which conflict directly with the game.  retribution events conflict with the in game content we do have. more so. arrival can take place right after horizon. and you said it yourself. you think retribution had to take place after sucide mission(i think retribtuion could take place some time after cerberus salvaged collector tech, horizon, dereliect repear and sucide mission. each one of these will do.)

at the end of the day, we have to choose the timeline which doesnt conflict with players choices. the only timeline which fit that descrbtion is a  timeline where retribution takes place after the events of me 2 and arrival. 

The comics which follows me2 dont match what the players exprience during the games.

[Erez Kristal]

JamesFaith wrote...

erezike wrote...

The asari group was could have been the last group to be killed by biotics. but grayson managed to kill enough by then to create a lasting impression. such thing would make it to the station news. the reason grayson had to kill hundreds and take his time was because ariah was ordering her people to block his path to the spaceports.
he had to fight his way around them.

You are again mistaken. It was first group.

The first group to get in his way had been easily dispatched with a biotic singularity. 

And he didn't only fought through merc, there is also written that Reapers used Grayson's memories to find shortest alternative side routes. And later is also mentioned that spaceport he used had only small security force.

None of the ports Aria controlled were heavily guarded—most people knew better than to steal a ship from Omega’s Pirate Queen. This one was no different; only a handful of defenders were there to try to stop him.

like i said, i will check the quotes of exactly how many where killed how when i get back to the book. for now i will have to take your word about the biotics. but i remember quite clearly i took grayson some time and a lot of dead people before he made it to the port.

[JamesFaith]

erezike wrote...
like i said, i will check the quotes of exactly how many where killed how when i get back to the book. for now i will have to take your word about the biotics. but i remember quite clearly i took grayson some time and a lot of dead people before he made it to the port.

Yes, there is mentioned a lot of people and many deaths, but no numbers except those 20 people in warehouse (considered as many people by Aria) and four asari.

When result should be around hunderd of people, hunderds is just your personal headcannon, because there is nothing in this part of book describing it in details, so you can hardly make objective judgmenent based only on speculated number of causalities.

[Clayless]

erezike wrote...

shepard seems to be able to recieve emails on a regualr basis from various people. basicly shepard recieves emails after every mission. including n7 missions.  hackett even speaks with shepard directly on a direct link. so no shepard was only off grid for three occasions on mass effect.
1) overlord. when the vi turned off communication.
2) sucide mission. beyond the omega 4 relay. only people with qunatem communication could reach shepard
3) arrival mission where shepard is passed out.

way, working with a terrorist organisation" is legitimately off the grid.- working with a terror organization means someone is working with a terror organization. this is why anderson was still able to chitchat with shepard several times during the time shepard was working with cerberus.

-yes places are unchange due to gameplay limitations. but we cannot apply video game logic to let this one of the hook. especially when we are talking about video game logic which conflict directly with the game.  retribution events conflict with the in game content we do have. more so. arrival can take place right after horizon. and you said it yourself. you think retribution had to take place after sucide mission(i think retribtuion could take place some time after cerberus salvaged collector tech, horizon, dereliect repear and sucide mission. each one of these will do.)

at the end of the day, we have to choose the timeline which doesnt conflict with players choices. the only timeline which fit that descrbtion is a  timeline where retribution takes place after the events of me 2 and arrival. 

The comics which follows me2 dont match what the players exprience during the games.

Why does it have to take place after Arrival? Pretty sure that, canonically, Arrival takes place after ME2.

Modifié par Robosexual, 30 novembre 2013 - 12:40 .

[JamesFaith]

erezike wrote...

-yes places are unchange due to gameplay limitations. but we cannot apply video game logic to let this one of the hook. especially when we are talking about video game logic which conflict directly with the game.  retribution events conflict with the in game content we do have. more so. arrival can take place right after horizon. and you said it yourself. you think retribution had to take place after sucide mission(i think retribtuion could take place some time after cerberus salvaged collector tech, horizon, dereliect repear and sucide mission. each one of these will do.)

at the end of the day, we have to choose the timeline which doesnt conflict with players choices. the only timeline which fit that descrbtion is a  timeline where retribution takes place after the events of me 2 and arrival. 

The comics which follows me2 dont match what the players exprience during the games.

Maybe I wrong (too much text here) but do you also operate with option suicide mission and then Arrival? This is also possibility and without any time constrain it can take a while.

[Erez Kristal]

JamesFaith wrote...


Maybe I wrong (too much text here) but do you also operate with option suicide mission and then Arrival? This is also possibility and without any time constrain it can take a while.

 for the players who played arrival after the sucide mission it will be easier to ignore the static game world by putting the blame on video game logic.
By why go there in the first place when retirbution can occur after arrival and the other events of mass effect 2 and fit perfectly with what the entire player base exprienced during the game. without having to use video game logic to keep immersion going.


If you are talking about the time that passes in a case sucide mission was completed a lot before arrival. and as a result there is a big gap in the timeline. you would have to ask yourself what was shepard doing during that time.
it will demand the player to invent more stuff up to make that work. and it will also imply shepard was doing nothing important in that time gap since you dont hear of anything important shepard managed to do with the exception of the mission shepard already participated in.

Robosexual wrote...

Why does it have to take place after Arrival? Pretty sure that, canonically, Arrival takes place after ME2.

I think one of the points i am trying to pass here.
whose canon? the players who played me2 with arrival or walters who changed me2 timeline to fit the comics?

Modifié par erezike, 30 novembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[Clayless]

erezike wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...


Maybe I wrong (too much text here) but do you also operate with option suicide mission and then Arrival? This is also possibility and without any time constrain it can take a while.

 for the players who played arrival after the sucide mission it will be easier to ignore the static game world by putting the blame on video game logic.
By why go there in the first place when retirbution can occur after arrival and the other events of mass effect 2 and fit perfectly with what the entire player base exprienced during the game. without having to use video game logic to keep immersion going.


If you are talking about the time that passes in a case sucide mission was completed a lot before arrival. and as a result there is a big gap in the timeline. you would have to ask yourself what was shepard doing during that time.
it will demand the player to invent more stuff up to make that work. and it will also imply shepard was doing nothing important in that time gap since you dont hear of anything important shepard managed to do with the exception of the mission shepard already participated in.

Or you could say:

"Arrival takes place post-SM, canonically."

Kinda solves the problem.

[essarr71]

This is why you cant cite a wiki when writing a thesis.

[JamesFaith]

erezike wrote...

If you are talking about the time that passes in a case sucide mission was completed a lot before arrival. and as a result there is a big gap in the timeline. you would have to ask yourself what was shepard doing during that time.
it will demand the player to invent more stuff up to make that work. and it will also imply shepard was doing nothing important in that time gap since you dont hear of anything important shepard managed to do with the exception of the mission shepard already participated in.

Actually I know what my Shepard did in my first game.

It was Lair of the Shadowbraker and Overlord because I first added them before SM in next playthrough. And there should be any other mission which wasnť directly tied to main story ark including virus infected robots and other side missions. 

Fixed timeline is limited only on main story ark and other missions are completely in players direction.

[in it for the lolz]

Timelines don't matter when it's "art."
Right. Right?

[Linkenski]

"GIVE UP erezike! You've lost! And there's nothing you can say to ever convince us otherwise" /lol

[KaiserShep]

Boy, I'm sure glad I don't give a volus' cloaca about how well the outside material meshes with the in-game stories. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 30 novembre 2013 - 03:07 .

[dreamgazer]

Morocco Mole wrote...

who cares

[AlanC9]

Robosexual wrote...

Or you could say:

"Arrival takes place post-SM, canonically."

Kinda solves the problem.

/thread?

[Linkenski]

in it for the lolz wrote...

Timelines don't matter when it's "art."
Right. Right?

More like, if everything had been good with ME3 people wouldn't bother bringing something like this up because they'd be like "Walters is god".

[Erez Kristal]

Linkenski wrote...

"GIVE UP erezike! You've lost! And there's nothing you can say to ever convince us otherwise" /lol

?

Robosexual wrote...

Or you could say:

"Arrival takes place post-SM, canonically."

Kinda solves the problem.

the canon conflicts with many players playthroughs who already have arrival installed. and even if it is how arrival is supposed to be play. the problem at hand still stands in regards to the order of retribution and arrival on the timeline.

and its quite bad, because arrival could have been placed anywhere on the timeline(after 27.1.2186) quite easily. and blended perfectly with all of the players playthroughs.  
as situation stand right now. putting arrival after retirubution and three days before arrest. sort of tells most of the players their playthroughs are irrelevant(which is what me3 kinda did.)

Modifié par erezike, 30 novembre 2013 - 11:18 .

[AlanC9]

Why is it a problem if the mission order a player picks doesn't match the canon playthrough's order? Any particular Shep can only do things in one order. It is logically impossible for all player Sheps to match a canon Shep's choice of mission order.

And are you sure most players don't finish with Arrival anyway? Or let's say most BSN members; most players probably finished with Arrival if they played Arrival at all, since it was the last DLC and they didn't replay the game.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 novembre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Erez Kristal]

Canon playthrough on its own is problematic in a multiplie choices game.
just like they never tell you if shepard is a male or female. they should tell you when things happen when it can conflict with your playthrough.

- i am sure a lot of players played arrival as last mission. if those players visited anderson-ariah or listened to the news. any claims of retribution occuring before arrival would break suspension of disbelief. more so when you take into the equation anderson statements about shepard being unavailable. "doing god know what, god know where"

The problem isnt with the players or when they choose to do arrival. the problem lies only within the comics and some statements by some of bioware devs.  the comics and statements conflict with players playthroughs.

Modifié par erezike, 30 novembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[AlanC9]

Still don't see the problem. DA has a canon for the non-game material, doesn't it?

[Clayless]

erezike wrote...

the canon conflicts with many players playthroughs who already have arrival installed. and even if it is how arrival is supposed to be play. the problem at hand still stands in regards to the order of retribution and arrival on the timeline.

and its quite bad, because arrival could have been placed anywhere on the timeline(after 27.1.2186) quite easily. and blended perfectly with all of the players playthroughs.  
as situation stand right now. putting arrival after retirubution and three days before arrest. sort of tells most of the players their playthroughs are irrelevant(which is what me3 kinda did.)

Who puts Arrival after Retribution? By the looks of it they both happen around the same time, post-SM.

[JamesFaith]

AlanC9 wrote...

Still don't see the problem. DA has a canon for the non-game material, doesn't it?

Yes, DA has it, minimally with Wynne surviving.

[Linkenski]

Honestly I always disliked that they expanded upon things via comics and novels. Think about how much more they have to keep in line when writing for the games when they have to consider all the extra canonical entries. That's why I often just regard comics as non-canonical. I don't care if Kai Lame was different in ME3 from his novel counterpart. To me ME3 is what defined him.

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Still don't see the problem. DA has a canon for the non-game material, doesn't it?

Yes, DA has it, minimally with Wynne surviving.

Wynne's survival is simply part of the timeline they use for their novels.  It's not "canon" so much as it's one possible outcome.  They have outright said if they write something about a character that could be dead or elsewhere, events if that story would have unfolded differently.

[Erez Kristal]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Still don't see the problem. DA has a canon for the non-game material, doesn't it?

Yes, DA has it, minimally with Wynne surviving.

Wynne's survival is simply part of the timeline they use for their novels.  It's not "canon" so much as it's one possible outcome.  They have outright said if they write something about a character that could be dead or elsewhere, events if that story would have unfolded differently.

bad behaviour is still bad even when it claim affects your playthrough-timeline.  unless they declare it as fan fic like they did for wayne. if the comics are walters elaborated fan fic then i guess i am cool with the issue.

Robosexual wrote...

Who puts Arrival after Retribution? By the looks of it they both happen around the same time, post-SM.

Thats better, i got the impression they put arrival after retriubtion. because in the comics shepard is arrested three days after arrival. 

Arrival can also happen any point after horizon. so its best to avoid putting it in any canon timeline and just settle for hackett words: i will delay them for as long as i can. but just be ready to be there when the music calls.

Modifié par erezike, 30 novembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Iakus]

erezike wrote...
bad behaviour is still bad even when it claim affects your playthrough-timeline.  unless they declare it as fan fic like they did for wayne. if the comics are walters elaborated fan fic then i guess i am cool with the issue.

Well, the Dragon Age team has explicitly said that their books and comics are 'canon" only if they match up to the players own conditions (ie, if Alistair is king, Isabela is alive, etc, then the comics are canon) Otherwise, the events either didn't happen or happened differently than described.

I have heard no such claim for the Mass Effect books or comics.