208 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why does someone have to be wrong multiple pantheons can occupy the same world

^^This. Multiple pantheons should be able to coexist within the Thedosian universe, at least until Gaider or someone else tells us otherwise. I am inclined to believe that both the Maker and elven pantheons exist in this universe.

[TheBlackBaron]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

That wouldn't make his comments any less offensive. He's assuming
that anyone who would want an 'evil god' in the setting is a) an atheist
and a hateful person. Neither of those have to be the case.

There
are many reasons why someone might want to see such a character in the
setting. They might be a fundamentalist Christian who takes offense at
the notion that there is any god besides their own. They might be fan of
Lovecraft, and want to see Dragon Age implement some cosmicism themes.

Maybe they really, really like JRPGs.

It could be anything.

So why's it offensive to atheists to say there are atheists that want their belief projected in a game they enjoy?

How is the Maker being evil a projection of atheist beliefs in the first place? Atheism is the belief that there is no god, and revealing the Maker to be real (even if he's not how the Chantry has portrayed him) is the exact opposite of that.

Athiests, particularly of the anti-theistic variety, are often sterotyped as preferring that God be revealed as an evil being if he has to exist.

Stereotyping not required in Plaintiff's case. 

[Dabrikishaw]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

That wouldn't make his comments any less offensive. He's assuming
that anyone who would want an 'evil god' in the setting is a) an atheist
and a hateful person. Neither of those have to be the case.

There
are many reasons why someone might want to see such a character in the
setting. They might be a fundamentalist Christian who takes offense at
the notion that there is any god besides their own. They might be fan of
Lovecraft, and want to see Dragon Age implement some cosmicism themes.

Maybe they really, really like JRPGs.

It could be anything.

So why's it offensive to atheists to say there are atheists that want their belief projected in a game they enjoy?

How is the Maker being evil a projection of atheist beliefs in the first place? Atheism is the belief that there is no god, and revealing the Maker to be real (even if he's not how the Chantry has portrayed him) is the exact opposite of that.

Athiests, particularly of the anti-theistic variety, are often sterotyped as preferring that God be revealed as an evil being if he has to exist.

That's basically it.

[Plaintiff]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

That wouldn't make his comments any less offensive. He's assuming
that anyone who would want an 'evil god' in the setting is a) an atheist
and a hateful person. Neither of those have to be the case.

There
are many reasons why someone might want to see such a character in the
setting. They might be a fundamentalist Christian who takes offense at
the notion that there is any god besides their own. They might be fan of
Lovecraft, and want to see Dragon Age implement some cosmicism themes.

Maybe they really, really like JRPGs.

It could be anything.

So why's it offensive to atheists to say there are atheists that want their belief projected in a game they enjoy?

How is the Maker being evil a projection of atheist beliefs in the first place? Atheism is the belief that there is no god, and revealing the Maker to be real (even if he's not how the Chantry has portrayed him) is the exact opposite of that.

Athiests, particularly of the anti-theistic variety, are often sterotyped as preferring that God be revealed as an evil being if he has to exist.

Stereotyping not required in Plaintiff's case. 

I'm not an atheist.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I hope that the Maker is all a lie and that its demon behind it who is gaining power from all the idiots worshipping him a bit like the Ori from Stargate.

[Fredward]

Nah, malevolent god is so passe. I'd rather he be Fen'Harel or one of those other nice theories to be true.

EDIT:

Although, arguably, the Maker has already shown himself to be malevolent. Or at least indifferent to such a degree that it borders on malevolence.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 30 novembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Kalas Magnus]

No.

I want the chantry to be right.

I've played too many games where the church is a pool of lies.

[iOnlySignIn]

Hope?

How can the Maker be NOT malevolent (assuming that He exists, that is), given the history and current state of Thedas?

It is much more likely though that the Maker simply does not exist.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 novembre 2013 - 07:47 .

[metatheurgist]

Kalas Magnus wrote...
No.

I want the chantry to be right.

I've played too many games where the church is a pool of lies.

Well DA is a fantasy, so you've come to the right place.

[Vulpe]

 It has to do with the posts regarding The Maker that appeared at the beginning of the month and set the BSN on fire ? If yes, I want to make a clarification.

Those posts didn't refer to the actual Maker of the world, to its actual creator. They refered to an demon like entity that impersonated him and tricked people in believing he's their actual creator. It was an unfortunate chose of words that couldn't be corrected because the people against such a claim were already holding their pitchforks and torches and many missed the correction.

Leaving that besides, here's my answer:

I don't want The Maker to be a demon or something malevolent and by The Maker I'm referring to the actual creator of Thedas. I'll call him The Great Anonym to avoid confusion ( I love that name ). I'm hoping that his existance is never confirmed or denied. I'm hoping that he'll remain A Great Anonym.

What I hope is that The Chantry belief that The Great Anonym resides in the Golden City is erroneous. I personaly believe that it is a prison for a dark entity or a group of dark entities which I will call The Impersonators that are the source of The Taint and are imprisoned in The Golden City which it was never golden to begin with. 

I chose to call the The Impersonators because I believe they tricked the magisters and passed as The Old Gods in performing a teleportation ritual that wasn't only a teleportation spell, but it had the role in weakening their prison and passing The Taint to the magisters so that they could have a holding in the physical world.

So no, I don't want the original creator of the world to be a demon or evil spirit, but I would love to see that The Black City is the prison of some separated,malevolent forces.

EDIT

eluvianix wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Why does someone have to be wrong multiple pantheons can occupy the same world

^^This. Multiple pantheons should be able to coexist within the Thedosian universe, at least until Gaider or someone else tells us otherwise. I am inclined to believe that both the Maker and elven pantheons exist in this universe.

Of course they can exist separated, but as in real life, there are some elements that can be found in multiple religions and myths that never were in contact or had any ideeas excanges.

As I mentioned in another thread : the concept of a god ( trickster or not ) that traps malevolent entities beneath the ground one way or another can be found in all of Thedas beliefes : Elven, Andrastianism and the Avvar mythos.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 30 novembre 2013 - 08:18 .

[TK514]

The answer is still no.

[Exaltation]

Plot twist: Flemeth is the the Maker

Haha xD

[Laughing_Man]

Considering that I abhor the Chantry's duplicitous and self-rightous atitude, I won't have any problem with that.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Sandal is the maker. *brains blown*

[Vilegrim]

I would not, either keep it's very existence ambiguous, or if it has to be confirmed makes it blue and orange morality weirdness. Having the Old Gods confirmed as benevolent when not insane would be nice tho.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The same Old Gods that purportedly taught humanity blood magic and encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan?

[Plaintiff]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The same Old Gods that purportedly taught humanity blood magic and encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan?

According to an opposing religion. Funny how that works.

[Vulpe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The same Old Gods that purportedly taught humanity blood magic and encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan?

Depends how you see it. I personally believe that The Old Gods never spoke to The Magisters. Why ? After the Breach Of The Golden City they went silent.

I think that a dark force that is imprisoned in The Black City, which is the source of The Taint, tricked the magister in believing they are them and also tricked them that the spell they did to get in The Golden/Black City was just a teleportation spell, but it also wickened the prison.

I believe that The Old Gods play a similar role to the Seven Seals Of The Apocalypse, only that they try to mentain The Veil and The Black City prison up and going. That's why they are alwasy asleep - it's like a trance like state. Because of this, after each Old God death The Veil as a whole and the Black City prison gets wicker and after the last Old God death they will completely cease to exist.

That's why Flemeth wants the OGB. To make sure that The Veil and The Prison continue to exist. She also wants him to be made with a grey warden so that he'll be immune to The Taint and not suffer the same fate as the other Old Gods.  

When they become Archdemons they basically transform in puppets and conduits for the dark force that it's the actual source of The Taint.

If you take it this way, they can be seen as good guys. 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 30 novembre 2013 - 10:44 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The same Old Gods that purportedly taught humanity blood magic and encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan?

According to an opposing religion. Funny how that works.

Actually I think what the Ancient Tevinters themselves claimed.

[Vulpe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually I think what the Ancient Tevinters themselves claimed.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't had been misleaded by the entities they've talked to into believing what they wanted them to think.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What would be the purpose of pretending to be the Old Gods to the Tevinter dreamers? The reason the Imperium worshiped the Old Gods in the first place is because Thalsian claimed to have been contacted by Dumat himself.

[Vulpe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What would be the purpose of pretending to be the Old Gods to the Tevinter dreamers? The reason the Imperium worshiped the Old Gods in the first place is because Thalsian claimed to have been contacted by Dumat himself.

Read my previous post. The source of The Taint would have wanted to get a foothold in the physical world and if The Old Gods are responsible for its imprisonemet, it would want them to be seen as bag guys and gone.

[vaire]

As I see it what the Maker is (his existance admitted in the first place) is, in the end, something that concerns the world little, as he is an absent god. In my opinion the real "problem" is the Chantry since, aside from its fairy-tale dogma it has aboundantly proved to be, at the very best, a force unable to use its power for the good of Thedas. As the inquisitor I'd rather be able to do something about the real problem of the organization than to know some piece of information (as I did in the previous games). That said I like the idea of the "prison black city".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Personally, I' d want for the Maker to return and bless the Chantry for it's righteous service, and then he permanantly removes all mages from Thedas, kills all the archdemons and old gods, breaks the qunari empire and Tevinter in half, and the world lives happily on under his light!