208 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

Maker is Fenharel, that is obvious. He got pissed when all the little people in Thedas worshipped other gods. He got rid of them (the good and bad gods) and presented himself as the "maker".

[Afro_Explosion]

I would hate if bioware took the god is evil trope, it would like a huge cop-out

[DarthSliver]

mx_keep13 wrote...

I would hate if bioware took the god is evil trope, it would like a huge cop-out

Well in most religions there where there is a god there is usually a devil like entity. I think thats where the topic is trying to hint at, we find out our troubles have been coming from hell sorta thing. 

[Il Divo]

I'd be down, if for no other reason than committing deicide is always fun in a RPG. I still remember taking down Vivec in Morrowind, who may or may not be regarded as a false God. Fun stuff.

[Angrywolves]

not obvious ukki. shrugs. just your opinion.

[Dayze]

TK514 wrote...

I like how, to some posters, if a parent and their adult children are estranged, it's child abuse.

I also like how, if a parent works with dangerous materials and keeps them in a secure facility in an inaccessible part of the world, it's the parent's fault when the child goes to extraordinary lengths to find the facility and break in.

I would also debate the Maker's omnipotence and omniscience. An unimaginably powerful creator deity, yes. But one who has been explicitly shown to be fallible in creating, and who has shown no ability to modify or repair.

He created his first children, the spirits, and was disappointed in what he made. That means he didn't foresee how they would turn out, and was incapable of making them perfectly the first time. He then, rather than modify his creation, started over from scratch. And, further reenforcing the idea that the Maker is neither infallible nor all powerful, his second project also failed. And, again, he showed no inclination or potential to modify or repair.

Nothing the Maker has or hasn't done is in the slightest an indication of malevolence, or even neglect. According to some posters, the only way the Maker could possibly be a benevolent deity is if he completely stripped away free will and created puppets that he constantly manipulated.

Remember they are debating the "Maker" of the Chantry myth not the one that might actually exist in game lore.

In the Myths of the Chantry the Maker actually infected the priests and sent them back to the world they came from as punishment.

If you want to look on the bad side of that; essentially he punished people who were being oppressed, enslaved and sacrificed by the thousands for the acts of the people who were oppressing them.

Thats....kind of messed up on a pretty epic level.  Also; they were children inregards to how easily they could be manipulated by demons and old gods.....things the Maker did nothing to limit or help against.

I don't think you can argue against Neglect; even when he was around he didn't do much to involve himself in his children's lives aside from judge them as being unworthy and starting again or abandoning them.

The Maker didn't do anything to set them up with protection from forces they couldn't possible forsee or protect themselves from.  Really; s/he should have known better.

Pretty much; no matter how you look at it, even the best view of The Maker isn't one of an entity that should be worshipped.

[Absafraginlootly]

I hope we never find out whether the maker is real or not. Part of the reason I like Dragon Age is that the people who have faith, have just that, faith. There are no concrete facts about anyone's beliefs, not like dnd where everyone knows that their god exists.

It makes the setting feel more real to me, and allows for a lot more different view points both for npcs and antogonists and for my own character.

[K_Tabris]

After reading the Golden Compass trilogy, I am intrigued with the idea that the Fade/spirit world is made up of a hierarchy of spirits, one of which is/was the Maker, before retreating into some secluded and protected corner of the Fade. It's possible the Maker was stronger at one point and took Andraste into the Fade with him.

I like the idea of a Metatron character taking over for the Maker and trying to undo the veil between the Fade and the tangible world in which Thedas resides.

Of course, it's all just speculation, and I wouldn't want to see DA:I borrow too much from other fantasy worlds.

[TK514]

Dayze wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I like how, to some posters, if a parent and their adult children are estranged, it's child abuse.

I also like how, if a parent works with dangerous materials and keeps them in a secure facility in an inaccessible part of the world, it's the parent's fault when the child goes to extraordinary lengths to find the facility and break in.

I would also debate the Maker's omnipotence and omniscience. An unimaginably powerful creator deity, yes. But one who has been explicitly shown to be fallible in creating, and who has shown no ability to modify or repair.

He created his first children, the spirits, and was disappointed in what he made. That means he didn't foresee how they would turn out, and was incapable of making them perfectly the first time. He then, rather than modify his creation, started over from scratch. And, further reenforcing the idea that the Maker is neither infallible nor all powerful, his second project also failed. And, again, he showed no inclination or potential to modify or repair.

Nothing the Maker has or hasn't done is in the slightest an indication of malevolence, or even neglect. According to some posters, the only way the Maker could possibly be a benevolent deity is if he completely stripped away free will and created puppets that he constantly manipulated.

Remember they are debating the "Maker" of the Chantry myth not the one that might actually exist in game lore.

In the Myths of the Chantry the Maker actually infected the priests and sent them back to the world they came from as punishment.

If you want to look on the bad side of that; essentially he punished people who were being oppressed, enslaved and sacrificed by the thousands for the acts of the people who were oppressing them.

Thats....kind of messed up on a pretty epic level.  Also; they were children inregards to how easily they could be manipulated by demons and old gods.....things the Maker did nothing to limit or help against.

I don't think you can argue against Neglect; even when he was around he didn't do much to involve himself in his children's lives aside from judge them as being unworthy and starting again or abandoning them.

The Maker didn't do anything to set them up with protection from forces they couldn't possible forsee or protect themselves from.  Really; s/he should have known better.

Pretty much; no matter how you look at it, even the best view of The Maker isn't one of an entity that should be worshipped.

Except he didn't punish them.  The Chant of Light is ambiguous at best, but infers that their sin and the blackening of heaven, which they were responsible for, is what tainted and twisted them into Darkspawn.  The Maker didn't need to punish them.

And I don't know how much more protection you expect the Maker to have given them.  He put them on an entirely different plane of reality and then, in theory, built a barrier they weren't supposed to be able to breach.  You're blaming the homeowner because the thief got hurt breaking in.  After driving a bulldozer through the front wall.

Modifié par TK514, 02 décembre 2013 - 01:36 .

[metatheurgist]

TK514 wrote...
Except he didn't punish them.  The Chant of Light is ambiguous at best, but infers that their sin and the blackening of heaven, which they were responsible for, is what tainted and twisted them into Darkspawn.  The Maker didn't need to punish them.

This is a slippery slope...but I'll step forward. If the maker is all powerful then everything that happens under his watch happens with his blessing, if it happened, he wanted it to happen. If he's not all powerful and he couldn't control what happened, then he's just another fade spirit so why bother worshipping him?

TK514 wrote...
And I don't know how much more protection you expect the Maker to have given them.  He put them on an entirely different plane of reality and then, in theory, built a barrier they weren't supposed to be able to breach.  You're blaming the homeowner because the thief got hurt breaking in.  After driving a bulldozer through the front wall.

Something that goes off and poison the intruder sounds like a trap. It's illegal in my country to trap your home against intruders.

[BlueMagitek]

No, you can take down Vivec. There's actually a way to finish the game even if you do that.

[Il Divo]

MasterScribe wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

I'd be down, if for no other reason than committing deicide is always fun in a RPG. I still remember taking down Vivec in Morrowind, who may or may not be regarded as a false God. Fun stuff.

You mean Dagoth Ur. 

Both of them, really. My favorite character I ever played was a Wizard who inevitably made it his goal to hunt down/kill any god-like/powerful entity. Those two were at the higher end of the list.

[Il Divo]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's okay to abuse your children when they become adults?

Abuse? Leaving a grown adult to live their life is abuse?

Well, if we're going down the Maker as a parent approach, this starts getting a bit muddled. A normal parent (as an example) would go out of their way to help their children or if their child partitioned them for aid, would lend support.

Assuming a normal, well-adjusted family, it wouldn't be surprising for a parent to help their child in whatever way they could. Money, as an example.

So at that point, it might be better to consider that the Maker might not view him/herself as a parent or that they are bad at the whole parenting thing.

[Medhia Nox]

When something goes wrong - the Maker didn't intervene! He must be bad!

When things are fine - stay out of my business Maker! You must be bad!

This is not a new human trait.

===

As for "Maker as Parent".

A parent who coddles a child, will produce nothing more than an ineffectual adult.

To a being beyond death, death is hardly a punishment. It is, as some poets would describe, just another door.

But eternally scorned as Darkspawn? That would be punishment.

But no more than if you burned yourself on a hot stove when your parents warn you it is hot. The Maker forewarned, the Magisters did not heed the warning. They got burned, but through no other fault than their own.

The morality tale of the Black City - is hubris. It's little more than a retelling of a hundred different tales like it. The most familiar would be the popular tale of Lucifer.

===

As for all the "innocents" that get caught in the wake of the Darkspawn - the blame still remains upon the ancient magisters.

====

It's interesting that the Maker does not get the credit for liberating "innocent" people from Tevinter through Andraste.

Not surprising - selfish people want, but never want to take responsibility.

[Jorji Costava]

Haven't really kept track of the entire conversation, but in response to the OP, I'll just say that I'd prefer it if the game doesn't clarify anything regarding the Maker any more than it already has. Better to leave it ambiguous. I would not want to see a retread of Star Trek V in Dragon Age: "What does God need with horses?"

[Il Divo]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Consider that the Maker already gave Thedas everything they need to do. The Maker taught Thedas how to work. How to take responsibility. How to do the chores. How to live.

Then Thedas p*sses itself and expects the Maker to step in? What?

The Maker, for most people, doesn't exist outside of scripture. Consider that most people would not think it good parenting if my sole interaction with my children came in the form of writing which they are expected to hold to at all times.

As another point, I'd also be hesitant about holding Thedas collectively responsible.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's interesting that the Maker does not get the credit for liberating "innocent" people from Tevinter through Andraste.

Not surprising - selfish people want, but never want to take responsibility.

Meh, I am just chalking up the saving of the innocenet to Andraste being a ridiculously powerful mage. I honestly don't think the Maker had anything to do with it.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Do you chalk up the Darkspawn curse as the hubris of ridiculously powerful mages?

If you are going to take "that" literal - and say that the Maker cursed them, why do you not take the story of Andraste literally - since it does say that she begged him to intervene, and because of his love for her, he returned.

[Dayze]

Actually if we really look at people as being The Makers children, Andraste being his bride has some questionable attributes to it.

The Fade wasn't a barrier within the concept of the chantry myth it was just where they lived.

Kind of like amphibious creatures leaving water to stalk their prey; demons leave the fade to stalk humanity.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: Do you chalk up the Darkspawn curse as the hubris of ridiculously powerful mages?

If you are going to take "that" literal - and say that the Maker cursed them, why do you not take the story of Andraste literally - since it does say that she begged him to intervene, and because of his love for her, he returned.

Honestly, either way, I think we need more info. As for the magisters, I do not believe that the Maker necessarily cursed them. I think in some sense they were hubristic in their pursuit of a Golden City, an endeavor which backfired to them. They were obviously not prepared and overwhelmed by whatever was in that city, that ended with their transformation. Same with Andraste. I am hesitant to ascribe her power to the Maker, but rather think that she was an extraordinarily powerful mage, at least until I am proven otherwise. Perhaps, she was a dreamer as well.

[Dayze]

To put it another way; Maker's relation to demons is kind of like a neighbor having aggressive violent, rabid dogs it doesn't bother to control and lets wander around the block.

Also the Tevinter Mages were infected because of something the Maker owned and then ended up infecting a whole lot of other things. The Maker still bears responsibility for not trying to deal with that. If he can hear some pretty singing he can hear horrific cries of pain.

Though considering the nature of "singing" in this game, it probably means Andraste had the maker bound under some spell and was forcing him to do her will via mind control of some sort.