173 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Panda]

With all of the fade tears and all that plot stuff, it looks as though the supposedly diverse and alien denizens of the Fade are going to be made into elite mooks to be felled by the handfuls.

Now, this happened quite a bit in DA: O, and especially throughout the entire game of DA:2, but there's an opportunity here.


However, the lore paints these denizens of the Fade as diverse and unique. Calling them "demons" is simply playing into the chantry supported superstitions of the land. The in-game representations have only served to support this most negative stereotype, with positive examples being few and far between but never really being within grasp of the player asides from mentions.

I only hope that we will be able to communicate with some of them at least, on the most cordial of terms (tea and crumpets not necessary), instead of having them be all "Mrawgh, I want to eat your face off!"



The entities of the Fade, that which you know as demons and spirits, for all their elaboration in the lore, kind of deserve to be better represented, considering the closer nature of Thedas to the Fade at the time of many areas developing veil tears, allowing said denizens of the Fade to strut haphazardly around Thedas.

I think they need at least some characterization like the rest of the characters in the game world, and not just the traditional "'I'm super evil and here's a bargain for you, but I want a person's body and soul, you know?' or the 'Let me possess someone and I'll teach you to be a blood mage for real'".


I'm alright with burning all the shades, rage demons, and hunger demons, but allow us to negotiate with the more sensible and rational ones when and if and only if it makes sense. That pride demon that crushed a kitten? It's going down to china town if you know what I mean.


Am I alone in this?

[Angrywolves]

disagree with you completely .
demons are evil. no moral ambiguity. They are the enemy. Another player a couple of weeks back asked for the opportunity to become an abomination. shrugs. Let anybody that wants it have it. shrugs.

[Chernaya]

Demons have always been portrayed as the kind of paranormal entity that is purely evil and nothing human, but in a fantasy setting I suppose you could really do anything. xP

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Kinda hard to do when a demon is literally the embodiment of some evil trait.


Then again, there are "good" spirits, too (though I use the term loosely).

[StarLitStranger]

Demons are just plain evil, while spirits like Justice are the ones who seem to turn.

[Maria Caliban]

People want walking XP bags they can slaughter by the thousand without a trace of guilt. Hence darkspawn, demons, and (ugly) abominations.

I'd like demons to be a bit more nuanced they've been portrayed as - even DnD has gotten rid of the 'always chaotic evil' label - but it's not going to happen.

[Lebanese Dude]

Maria Caliban wrote...

People want walking XP bags they can slaughter by the thousand without a trace of guilt. Hence darkspawn, demons, and (ugly) abominations.
 

That's.... one way to put it lol

[Red Panda]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Kinda hard to do when a demon is literally the embodiment of some evil trait.

It's kind of hard to argue for demons to not be mislabeled as "evil", when people think demon=evil.


The chantry propaganda against these relatively grey entities is a pervasive and annoying feature of Dragon Age when you consider how much of the "mortal" characters are complete jerks.

Just because citizens of the fade come from a different place doesn't mean that they should be treated so poorly. They're people too.

[Rawgrim]

I appretiate the thoughts the OP has shared, but I have to disagree with them. Demons are, by their very nature, evil. Simple as that.

[ScarMK]

I'm pretty sure there will be no "good" demons. The best you can probably hope for is a "morally" grey situation.

[Red Panda]

ScarMK wrote...

I'm pretty sure there will be no "good" demons. The best you can probably hope for is a "morally" grey situation.

In no way am I asking for "good" "Demons".



I see the dragon age world as a game of thrones-esque setting where everyone looks out for number one. Demons are no different from, say, templars or mages.

[Rawgrim]

OperatingWookie wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

I'm pretty sure there will be no "good" demons. The best you can probably hope for is a "morally" grey situation.

In no way am I asking for "good" "Demons".



I see the dragon age world as a game of thrones-esque setting where everyone looks out for number one. Demons are no different from, say, templars or mages.

Yes they are. Demons are just physical manifistations, of sorts, of mens base desires. They don`t even have a personality. Just 1 basic goal.

[Maria Caliban]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

People want walking XP bags they can slaughter by the thousand without a trace of guilt. Hence darkspawn, demons, and (ugly) abominations.

I'd like demons to be a bit more nuanced they've been portrayed as - even DnD has gotten rid of the 'always chaotic evil' label - but it's not going to happen.

That's not fair to DA:O's Circle Tower (the Desire Demon or the Sloth demon), or DA ]['s...DA ]['s...I can't think of a DA ][ example offhand. But there were definitely some more nuanced demonic creatures in DA:O.

As someone who let the desire demon live because I found it interesting, I'm still going to say that providing someone with the illusion of a happy family so you can feed on their life energies is morally sketchy, especially since it's implied the demon didn't get any sort of consent.

'I wish I were out of the circle and had a normal life' does in no way imply you're fine with a demon hijacking your brain so she can exist in the real world.

If you're talking about the sloth demon that pulls you into the Fade, I'm not sure how it's anything but evil. Trapping you in a dream realm so it can feast on your mind while your body starves and dies is rather far from a neutral or benevolent action.

If you're talking about the sloth demon in the mage's Harrowing, he probably was evil, but was lazy and only tries to kill you if you fail his riddles.

[Medhia Nox]

The lore makes it very clear that spirits/demons are actually quite stupid. They are incapable of complex, nuanced thought patterns mortals are capable of. They do not possess the capacity to imagine or create.

More often than not, they're shown this way as well. Endlessly spewing their stupid about "Desire" or "Pride" or "Whatever ooey gooey trait they're pushing this week."

When we meet something like "Mouse" - it would seem that it consumed that mage long ago. Doing so - it is capable of hiding itself. Otherwise - I'm not sure how something with Pride - and no imagination - could be a mouse, and subjugate itself (even if only as a ruse) to a Rage demon.

This might be the entire concept behind more powerful demons. Eating more people - they become more complex - until, they become capable of reasoning like a mortal and breaking the coding of their nature.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Would like to continue to encounter demons we didn't need to fight, like we did in DAO and DA2.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 30 novembre 2013 - 05:28 .

[Red Panda]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The lore makes it very clear that spirits/demons are actually quite stupid. They are incapable of complex, nuanced thought patterns mortals are capable of. They do not possess the capacity to imagine or create.

More often than not, they're shown this way as well. Endlessly spewing their stupid about "Desire" or "Pride" or "Whatever ooey gooey trait they're pushing this week."

When we meet something like "Mouse" - it would seem that it consumed that mage long ago. Doing so - it is capable of hiding itself. Otherwise - I'm not sure how something with Pride - and no imagination - could be a mouse, and subjugate itself (even if only as a ruse) to a Rage demon.

This might be the entire concept behind more powerful demons. Eating more people - they become more complex - until, they become capable of reasoning like a mortal and breaking the coding of their nature.

But once they become more complex, they can indeed be considered like that of a person.

They just need time to develop, so infantlike are they, that we dismiss and attempt to abort their maturation at first sight.

Is that not morally wrong? Would you kill a child that doesn't know what wrong is?

[TEWR]

I'd like to see a combination of evil, amoral, and immoral Demons in the world other then just simply "MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

When we meet something like "Mouse" - it would seem that it consumed that mage long ago. Doing so - it is capable of hiding itself. Otherwise - I'm not sure how something with Pride - and no imagination - could be a mouse, and subjugate itself (even if only as a ruse) to a Rage demon.

Sloth was a bear, FYI.

[Medhia Nox]

@OperatingWookie: They're not children. They're not living. They're ideas. They aren't birthed and cannot die.

Also - I do not consider consuming mortals an acceptable path to understanding.

I would not traffic, nor associate with those who traffic, with demons OR spirits. Even Wynne was a stretch for me - though I truly have found no evidence in game that the Spirit of Faith inhabited her body. So - I was inclined to keep her at arms length, though I made my stance very clear in character.

=======

Ethereal Writer Redux:  Mouse is the... mouse... you encounter shortly after entering the Fade.  He later reveals himself as a Pride demon - which had ingratiated himself to a Rage demon (the demon you are supposed to believe is your challenge). 

The Sloth demon would be another example of a Pride demon "swallowing his pride" for the sake of deception. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 30 novembre 2013 - 05:33 .

[Red Panda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd like to see a combination of evil, amoral, and immoral Demons in the world other then just simply "MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

When we meet something like "Mouse" - it would seem that it consumed that mage long ago. Doing so - it is capable of hiding itself. Otherwise - I'm not sure how something with Pride - and no imagination - could be a mouse, and subjugate itself (even if only as a ruse) to a Rage demon.

Sloth was a bear, FYI.

I see what you mean.


Evil doesn't really seem to define demons, or at least it shouldn't.

The less experienced ones are like children grasping at a more complex world, trying to understand it. We demonize them, because they do not possess the same morals as mortals, being denizens of the Fade.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not all denizens of the Fade are evil but all demons are. Most Fade inhabitants are single minded manifestations of a single concept.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 novembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[Red Panda]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@OperatingWookie: They're not children. They're not living. They're ideas. They aren't birthed and cannot die.

Also - I do not consider consuming mortals an acceptable path to understanding.

I would not traffic, nor associate with those who traffic, with demons OR spirits. Even Wynne was a stretch for me - though I truly have found no evidence in game that the Spirit of Faith inhabited her body. So - I was inclined to keep her at arms length, though I made my stance very clear in character.

Oh, but they are, and your bias is most clear, for they are the Maker's first children, are they not?

Ideas are born from the thoughts and minds. They saw the complexities of mortals and sought to understand them. Your ideas birth them and shape them, just as you do ideas. They live just as your ideas do. When you dream, you bring so many ideas to life, all vibrant with the life your mind gives them.

And "Demons and Spirits" can fade into nothingness, when the ideas and beliefs they represent and hold dominance over fade.



Can you really judge another type of being for trying to comprehend, even sometimes with envy, to understand why the maker made Thedas, why the maker abandoned them?

[Medhia Nox]

@OperatingWookie: The Maker did not deem to fix them.

Why should I?