173 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Panda]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@OperatingWookie: The Maker did not deem to fix them.

Why should I?

I'm not saying that you should even try, just that you should consider that they are nowhere near evil.


They are amoral to us, yes, but that's because they have no understanding of what you believe is right or wrong.


It would stand to reason that a "demon" that has had lots of exposure to the denizens of Thedas would be capable of being reasonable, however. That is the point I want to make. First, in some cases they can be reasoned with. Second, they are just ridiculously amoral and ignorant of Thedas definitions of right and wrong.

Most of them would probably be better off if killed by fire and sent back to the Fade, or in the case of rage demons, frost.

[RobRam10]

I do hope we find one Demon to make a bargain, I mean how could I have resisted sacrificing Fenryel to Topor.

[TEWR]

Ethereal Writer Redux: Mouse is the... mouse... you encounter shortly after entering the Fade. He later reveals himself as a Pride demon - which had ingratiated himself to a Rage demon (the demon you are supposed to believe is your challenge).

The Sloth demon would be another example of a Pride demon "swallowing his pride" for the sake of deception.

I wasn't disputing that Mouse was the Pride Demon. Just the notion that a Demon could only take a form in the Fade if it possesses a host by mentioning another Demon that did take a different form. Don't know how you can claim Sloth is somehow a Pride Demon when he really is a Sloth Demon. The game pretty much smacks you over the head with that bit.

Though there isn't really evidence that Mouse's Mage persona ever existed in the first place. If it did, he wouldn't have needed to possess you after all. He'd have had a host in the real world.

Technically speaking, all the forms the Demons take require some form of imagination. So to say they have no imagination wouldn't be accurate to me. I'd say they have a limited imagination.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 novembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Fredward]

Didn't one of the devs say that demons are always created by darker emotions and thus are always ebil by default? Personally I think they're missing out on a lot. But then again maybe not, you could still be motivated by darker desires but do at least morally ambiguous things. Like the Desire demon in the tower. That leaned more towards symbioses than parastic. Though I guess that's debatable since his expiration date is probably a whole lot closer than had he never met the demon. But does it matter if the demon can make it feel like decades?

Anyway I feel like we need to know more about demonic motivation for messing with humans. The codex says it's the experience what it feels like to be human. That would imply that a symbiotic relationship is best, you don't want your pet sensate to expire when you still have use for it right? If so I figure demons have been portrayed kinda weirdly. But that's also Chantry propoganda, demons might just need humans to feed from and then only a few of them would have the foresight for sutainable... eh, farming.

I'd like the former best. They could be like Iezu demons from Coldfire.

[KC_Prototype]

Well, they're demons...what are they suppose to do? Have sex with us and then read us a bedtime story?

[Hellion Rex]

KC_Prototype wrote...

Well, they're demons...what are they suppose to do? Have sex with us and then read us a bedtime story?

That doesn't mean they necessarily have to fight us.

[Augustei]

There's only ever been 1 example of a good spirit so far in Dragon Age and that's Wynnes spirit of faith.
Justice doesn't count because he turned into a demon of vengeance, tried to kill an innocent girl for accusing him of what he was.. oh and he intentionally caused the Kirkwall Circle Annulment in an attempt to start a global war.

[Hellion Rex]

XxDeonxX wrote...

There's only ever been 1 example of a good spirit so far in Dragon Age and that's Wynnes spirit of faith.
Justice doesn't count because he turned into a demon of vengeance, tried to kill an innocent girl for accusing him of what he was.. oh and he intentionally caused the Kirkwall Circle Annulment in an attempt to start a global war.

Valor?
Plus, how many spirits have we even met? 2 or 3?

Modifié par eluvianix, 30 novembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

If Faith is what caused Wynne's actions in Asunder, I'd say we don't have any good spirits to list.

[Hellion Rex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If Faith is what caused Wynne's actions in Asunder, I'd say we don't have any good spirits to list.

Faith, I believe, remains mostly uncorrupted. And I don't think it "caused" Wynne's actions in Asunder.

[Jonathan Seagull]

I would, at least, like to run into some demons that are less outwardly monstrous. Even when we've been able to have conversations and make deals with them, it's typically after they've carried out some kind of attack. I think it would be interesting to run into a demon that didn't appear to be causing any harm and isn't shamelessly fantasizing about devouring the Inquisitor's soul.

It's a demon, so you might safely assume that it has dark designs for something, somewhere, at some point; but does not have any desire to kill/enslave/possess you. Maybe because harming you is is contrary to its own agenda, or simply because doing so doesn't actively further its goals, or whatever. I think it would just be an interesting situation to encounter something that you know is a demon, but that (for whatever reason, self-serving or not) doesn't seem to be currently causing any harm.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 30 novembre 2013 - 09:43 .

[Vulpe]

Demons are after all demons. They are enemies. It would be nice if we could find a way to revert their trasformation and make them in good or neutral spirits, like in The Legend Of Korra.

What I hope more is that we'll find out later in game that killing the dragons was actually a bad thing to do and that the world has to suffer because of it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

OperatingWookie wrote...
Just because citizens of the fade come from a different place doesn't mean that they should be treated so poorly. They're people too.

No, they are not.

I honestly can't tell ifooyu're trolling or not.

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

There's only ever been 1 example of a good spirit so far in Dragon Age and that's Wynnes spirit of faith.
Justice doesn't count because he turned into a demon of vengeance, tried to kill an innocent girl for accusing him of what he was.. oh and he intentionally caused the Kirkwall Circle Annulment in an attempt to start a global war.

Valor?
Plus, how many spirits have we even met? 2 or 3?

Valor could have potentially killed you.....so I guess it's how you want to see it there.

[Augustei]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If Faith is what caused Wynne's actions in Asunder, I'd say we don't have any good spirits to list.

No that was Wynne's idiocy, something ever evident whenever speaking to her lol

[Ieldra]

@OP:
That [what you wrote in the OP] is indeed what I hope to see. There's an opportunity for some interesting storytelling here. I've always found the "naturally evil" approach to anyone's characterization simplistic, and that includes demons. My Warden has reasoned with a darkspawn in DAA, I see no reason why things should be different with demons. The only reason I don't deal with them is because I know the story will make me regret it, even where it appears I could give them what they want without compromising my integrity. Some change here would be appreciated.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2013 - 12:31 .

[Hellion Rex]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

If Faith is what caused Wynne's actions in Asunder, I'd say we don't have any good spirits to list.

No that was Wynne's idiocy, something ever evident whenever speaking to her lol

Hardly any evidence of idiocy.

[Zatche]

OP, I think you're missing the point of what demons/spirits are. They are not people or children. Some can be interesting or clever and have motivations that run contrary to killing you. But they are still just manifestations of a trait/idea. When a demons possesses/traps a person, it is to give characterization to the person, not the demon. The pride or desire or sloth was already there. The demon just brought it out.

Edit: More simply put. the narrative theme is people do crappy things when affected by crappy traits.

DA2 turned the idea over on its head with regards to spirits. Anders was so affected by the need for justice for mages, he did something bad. Too much of a good thing. I don't see this happening the other way around.

Modifié par Zatche, 30 novembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[drake heath]

Good demons?

Like Pappa Nurgle, whose only crime is loving you too much?

[fiveforchaos]

They have a name for good or morally ambiguous demons, they're called spirits. It's pretty much stated straight up that the difference between a demon and a spirit is that a demon has nothing but ill will towards the races of Thedas. The moment the demon becomes more morally ambiguous is the moment it stops being a demon.

[Laughing_Man]

Some people are too much in love with the grimdark doom & gloom of WH40K, to accept any kind of middle ground when it comes to fade entities or the rights of mages, no matter what common sense and logic suggests.

DA is *not* WH40K people.

OP is merely suggesting that there may be other aspects to demons and spirits, more complicated than simply a desire to chew on people's faces.

[Medhia Nox]

@Drake Heath: The warp daemons are leagues developed over the simple programmed response entities we're presented with in Dragon Age.

Grandfather Nurgle's blessing be forever upon you.

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: I honestly don't know what you're saying.

You have three demons you meet in the Fade. Mouse (Pride demon) - Sloth (sloth demon) - and Rage (Rage demon). The Rage demon states very clearly that Mouse has been serving it for a LONG time. That's the demon I'm talking about when I say Pride submitted to another demon. Not Sloth (though I would still wonder why the personification of Pride would even pretend to be lesser than a sloth demon).

That being said - I'm not making headcanon that these demons are simplistic. The game tells you this in several places and shows you this in several more. There's literally no nuance to them.

I'm fine with that - as I believe it presents the reason why demons seek to become Abominations.

@TheRedVipress:  Don't you dare insult the glory that is 40K heretic!  ((calm down - despite loving 40K - I'm joking)).

Also - you're not too well versed in 40K if you don't think the daemons within that universe are vastly more nuanced than DA. 

Tzeench alone would protect whole worlds for thousands of years - in peace and harmony - just for the sake of eating one important soul.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 30 novembre 2013 - 04:16 .

[The Elder King]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Some people are too much in love with the grimdark doom & gloom of WH40K, to accept any kind of middle ground when it comes to fade entities or the rights of mages, no matter what common sense and logic suggests.

DA is *not* WH40K people.

OP is merely suggesting that there may be other aspects to demons and spirits, more complicated than simply a desire to chew on people's faces.

I coudn't care less about WH40K, and I still believe that demons are 'evil' (I think that Laidlaw/Darrah stated this about demons and darkspawn in a GI video, but I'm not sure). They are corrupted spirits (Justice/Vengeance case is enough proof for me about this), who are interested in the mortal world, and on experiencing it through the eyes of a mortal (which means possessing him and generally kill him). They feed off on people's emotions, and they consider mortals as playthings. 
I guess that as spirit can be corrupted in demons, demons might become again spirits.
I don't have anything about spirits (they're not interested in mortals, in general), but I think that mortals should be careful when dealing with them, if they must. Other than Anders's case, it's known that even Rivaini seers, who are very knowledgable about spirit possession, can't prevent completely the formation of abominations, which means that some of them corrupted their spirits.

Modifié par hhh89, 30 novembre 2013 - 04:30 .

[Angrywolves]

Why not ask God why doesn't he just fix Satan and his demons ?
An extremely unwise and unwarranted thread by the OP that I hope gets closed.

[Usergnome]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The lore makes it very clear that spirits/demons are actually quite stupid. They are incapable of complex, nuanced thought patterns mortals are capable of. They do not possess the capacity to imagine or create.

More often than not, they're shown this way as well. Endlessly spewing their stupid about "Desire" or "Pride" or "Whatever ooey gooey trait they're pushing this week."

When we meet something like "Mouse" - it would seem that it consumed that mage long ago. Doing so - it is capable of hiding itself. Otherwise - I'm not sure how something with Pride - and no imagination - could be a mouse, and subjugate itself (even if only as a ruse) to a Rage demon.

This might be the entire concept behind more powerful demons. Eating more people - they become more complex - until, they become capable of reasoning like a mortal and breaking the coding of their nature.

Mouse was NOT a mage. It was a Pride Demon, why are you believing its story AFTER
"Simple killing is a warriors job. The true dangers of the fade are preconceptions... careless trust... pride."

Kitty in Honnleath took on the form of a cat to trick Amalia. The Sloth Demon in the fade knew riddles. I don't know where you got that demons are stupid; they're clever, and totally devoted to their goals. That does not make them stupid.