173 réponses à ce sujet

[Bat32391]

I wouldn't mind seeing a demon that was some how warped into being good just like how justice turned into a demon.

[nightscrawl]

OperatingWookie wrote...

I'm alright with burning all the shades, rage demons, and hunger demons, but allow us to negotiate with the more sensible and rational ones when and if and only if it makes sense.

The reason we aren't supposed to negotiate with demons is because they can manipulate you in such a way as to make you actually believe that it would be a good deal. Take for instance the demon interactions we see during Night Terrors, especially with our companions. Fenris and Merrill in particular should know better, yet they succumb because the demon tells them exactly what they want to hear.

Unfortunately, this has been badly portrayed when it comes to our PC because we have plot armor. We can't be fooled by the demon, which belies all of the warnings we have been given about demons and their tricks. We've even been able to lie to them in reverse manipulation.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Kinda hard to do when a demon is literally the embodiment of some evil trait.


Then again, there are "good" spirits, too (though I use the term loosely).

There are benign and benevolent spirits in the fade, but why should they go through the tear in the veil? Wynne tells us that many (note I did not say "all") of these spirits have no interest in mortals or the mortal world, and we can see that first hand in Justice's initial reaction at being trapped outside of the fade.

When the veil is torn demons are going to pour though and wreak havoc. That doesn't necessarily mean that ALL denizens of the fade will come through, especially if they have no desire to do so.


Actually, now that I write that, an interesting development would be having the benevolent spirits follow the demons though. They would know that this could be catastrophic for the mortal world and might descend specifically to help us. I think I'd like to see that.

[nightscrawl]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Some people are too much in love with the grimdark doom & gloom of WH40K, to accept any kind of middle ground when it comes to fade entities or the rights of mages, no matter what common sense and logic suggests.

DA is *not* WH40K people.

OP is merely suggesting that there may be other aspects to demons and spirits, more complicated than simply a desire to chew on people's faces.

So what? We haven't really been presented with any sort of nuance from Bioware. Demons are evil, and spirits are benevolent or benign. That's pretty much it. All of this discussion about the demons developing into more complex creatures is moot if Bioware doesn't present any evidence for that or any indication that that is possible. If anything, they've shown that the only sort of change is corrupting, as in the case of Justice.

However, I will add that I do like the idea of demons and spirits being more pliable and taking on traits of their host. Justice was warped by Anders and turned into Vengeance. If you kill Anders what happens to Justice? Does he go up into the air, find a new host, and then forcibly inhabit that person as a true demon would? On inhabiting that new person, would that person's own motivations and desires take over? If that person was a lawful-good paladin type, would Justice return to his true form?

If that is the case, I would argue that demons and spirits are incapable of any real growth or legitimate change. A lump of clay that can be continually molded into various shapes does not have real growth. One instance might see it as a simple cup, and another as an elaborate sculpture, but the base material is still there to be changed again.

[General TSAR]

Demons are evil by nature hence why they are called DEMONS.

[Hellion Rex]

Angrywolves wrote...

Why not ask God why doesn't he just fix Satan and his demons ?
An extremely unwise and unwarranted thread by the OP that I hope gets closed.

What are you, the thread police? Last I checked, this is quite the valid question and topic.

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Why not ask God why doesn't he just fix Satan and his demons ?
An extremely unwise and unwarranted thread by the OP that I hope gets closed.

What are you, the thread police? Last I checked, this is quite the valid question and topic.

Look at who you're responding to. <_<

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Why not ask God why doesn't he just fix Satan and his demons ?
An extremely unwise and unwarranted thread by the OP that I hope gets closed.

What are you, the thread police? Last I checked, this is quite the valid question and topic.

Look at who you're responding to. <_<

Don't care. I am thoroughly annoyed.

[Laughing_Man]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@TheRedVipress:  Don't you dare insult the glory that is 40K heretic!  ((calm down - despite loving 40K - I'm joking)).

Also - you're not too well versed in 40K if you don't think the daemons within that universe are vastly more nuanced than DA. 

Tzeench alone would protect whole worlds for thousands of years - in peace and harmony - just for the sake of eating one important soul.

I'm indeed not too well-versed in the lore of WH40K, but I am aware of Tzeench and his machinations.

Considering that I love magic and supernatural in most forms, he could have been my god if he was abit more resonable and abit less evil and... well, chaotic.
As it is, worshiping the canibalistic rotting corpse, is probably the only thing that can keep the madness of chaos at bay for awhile.

I reffered more to the fact that in WH40K warp dwelling emtities are all evil.
(aside from some unfortunate mortals who became trapped there.)

In contrast, DA contains many types of fade entities, and I would be interested in seeing more than just outright-evil demons and benevolent spirits.

[t0mm06]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@OperatingWookie: The Maker did not deem to fix them.

Why should I?

I'm not saying that you should even try, just that you should consider that they are nowhere near evil.


They are amoral to us, yes, but that's because they have no understanding of what you believe is right or wrong.


It would stand to reason that a "demon" that has had lots of exposure to the denizens of Thedas would be capable of being reasonable, however. That is the point I want to make. First, in some cases they can be reasoned with. Second, they are just ridiculously amoral and ignorant of Thedas definitions of right and wrong.

Most of them would probably be better off if killed by fire and sent back to the Fade, or in the case of rage demons, frost.

Just because they do not understand that murdering an entire villiage isn't evil doesnt mean that the act is any less evil. For instace if i didnt know that murdering 100 people was evil and then went and did it, i should not go unpunished, or face lesser punishment 

[Demx]

There are spirits and there are demons. Demons are the ones that want to kill you. Spirits finding their way into the human world might happen.

[t0mm06]

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Why not ask God why doesn't he just fix Satan and his demons ?
An extremely unwise and unwarranted thread by the OP that I hope gets closed.

What are you, the thread police? Last I checked, this is quite the valid question and topic.

Look at who you're responding to. <_<

Shrug 
Shrug
Shrug
Shrug 
<_<

[Lyrandori]

I always had the feeling that even a ... let's say... a "good" demon would only attempt to communicate with you because said demon has a purpose, a need for himself/herself/itself (or themselves). If a demon is "trapped" in some magical bubble he can't escape without the help of a mortal, then it's most likely that if a mortal passes by the demon will try to communicate BECAUSE there's a need (to be freed by the mortal). Not exactly because said demon "feels like having a conversation because not completely evil". I guess that in other words I could say that at the very least in my mind a demon is the complete opposite of altruism (selfishness).

For me it goes like this:

Demon needs something = talk
Demon doesn't need anything from you, but you dare "debating" with "it" = you'll have problems
Demon "offers" a choice = illusion of choice (both choices fulfill his needs one way or another)

I mean, there's always a reason (or more than one) for a demon to be remotely interested in doing anything in a mortal realm with mortal beings. It's because they shouldn't be there (trapped, for example, or were banished there, or whatever), or because they're doing something there temporarily that benefits them (raising an army for the souls of said army in the end, or to hide themselves from more powerful demons, etc). You won't exactly walk in some unexplored woods, stumble upon a demon and out of nowhere start discussing the weather and "have a nice day!". They do not "belong" to the realms in which they happen to be if the realm in question isn't the one they come from or the one they were originally banished to after leaving their mortal envelop (which they often don't even recall).

I'm not even sure what was my point anymore... hmmm... well I guess demons are just ultimately selfish and they wouldn't hesitate to possess you, kill you, eat your soul, enslave you (or your soul), send you into a trap, interfere in your "good deeds" because you meddled in their affairs. There's always something, somewhere, somehow that explains and "justifies" a demon doing anything outside of its "home realm". They don't just go out on a trip because they're on vacation and they feel like being "nicer than usual" to a random joe trying to save mortal lives in a mortal realm "in peril" that the demon wouldn't even care for a second anyway.

I guess that's just me? I've never perceived "demons" as other beings than just selfish and more often than not simply ultimately evil (whatever the definition of your "evil" would be). So in the end I'm fine if there's not much "nuance" with the demons in the Dragon Age games (or any games). And I'm totally fine with demons wanting to be what they are, evil, so that all I have to do is end up killing them, to me that's not a cliché, contrarily it's simply to be expected out of a demon (I.E. you're a demon, do something evil and I'll stop you or die trying).

Modifié par Lyrandori, 30 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[BaronFonAphedron]

I believe, there's always a possibility for a demon to become a spirit just as for a spirit to become a demon. Maybe we will even be able to help one to rise? Maybe Justice?
There's a great book written on the subject of moral ambiguity, "The Master and Margarita", which i strongly recommend to those, who find this topic interesting.

[Medhia Nox]

@TheRedVipress: Not entirely true - though this isn't a 40K forum so I'll just be brief.

There are actually "good" being within the warp - the Emperor of Mankind, while not ideologically "good" in a simplistic faction - is literally all that stands between the four major gods of Chaos and the destruction of Mankind.

There are also rumored "angelic"-like being who inhabit 40K's warp - but I've never seen, nor heard of any.

Lastly - there are the Living Saints - angelic embodiments of good. Their representation is - despite the genre - truly saint-like. They are almost universally free of the grim-dark of the genre.

====

Also, Tzeench is the god of many a primitive world. He does not destroy these worlds - but rather, not unlike the Aztecs, demands "something" in the religions or customs of the world to keep the peace.

Many societies long removed from the Imperium of Man, actually perceive the Imperium as evil when they arrive - since they've lived so long accepting a bargain with a Chaos being for their safety and well being (and it's never portrayed as such a thing - it's also something like: "Kill a person a day to keep the sun rising.")

Anyway - no more time wasted on 40K.

[Ianamus]

"spirits" aren't portrayed as just enemies. Demons are, but they are by their very definition spirits that want to enter the real world by possessing a person. It's not exactly an easy thing to turn into a benevolent motive.

[metatheurgist]

Call me a grognard but I like having paragons of good and evil in my fantasy games. Demons are Eeevil, Paladins are Goood. Not to say that there's no room in there for semi-malevolent angsty supernatural beings or warriors that are unholy, just don't call them demons or paladins.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@OperatingWookie: They're not children. They're not living. They're ideas. They aren't birthed and cannot die.

Also - I do not consider consuming mortals an acceptable path to understanding.

I would not traffic, nor associate with those who traffic, with demons OR spirits. Even Wynne was a stretch for me - though I truly have found no evidence in game that the Spirit of Faith inhabited her body. So - I was inclined to keep her at arms length, though I made my stance very clear in character.

Oh, but they are, and your bias is most clear, for they are the Maker's first children, are they not?

Ideas are born from the thoughts and minds. They saw the complexities of mortals and sought to understand them. Your ideas birth them and shape them, just as you do ideas. They live just as your ideas do. When you dream, you bring so many ideas to life, all vibrant with the life your mind gives them.

And "Demons and Spirits" can fade into nothingness, when the ideas and beliefs they represent and hold dominance over fade.

Can you really judge another type of being for trying to comprehend, even sometimes with envy, to understand why the maker made Thedas, why the maker abandoned them?

You're assuming the Chantry knows where they really came from. Given the way this setting works, that's not safe to do. Besides, any demon that wasn't evil would by definition be a spirit. And even those can be a little sketchy; the Trickster Whim and Fade Rifter weren't considered demons. So, while what you request has arguably been done and will probably continue to be done, it won't be with demons. Edit: Or, if you are allowed to deal with demons, someone somewhere will be worse off for it, as with the Fade Beast from Asunder.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 décembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[Angrywolves]

Demons are evil. Some fans are so unrealistic . Expecting demons to somehow have a change of heart. sheesh.

[Big I]

Angrywolves wrote...
Demons are evil. Some fans are so unrealistic . Expecting demons to somehow have a change of heart. sheesh.

If Justice can go crazy and become Vengence, I don't see why the opposite can't happen. Moreover, most of Dragon Age so far has been about working with questionable people and organisations to achieve a greater good. Oghren, Sten, Shale, Zevran, Leliana, Loghain and Velanna were all known murderers. Justice was a walking corpse, Merril a blood mage, Anders an abomination, the list goes on.

I don't see there's much of a difference in working with one of the Crows, a qunari Sten, or a Desire demon.

[Lyrandori]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...
Demons are evil. Some fans are so unrealistic . Expecting demons to somehow have a change of heart. sheesh.

If Justice can go crazy and become Vengence, I don't see why the opposite can't happen. Moreover, most of Dragon Age so far has been about working with questionable people and organisations to achieve a greater good. Oghren, Sten, Shale, Zevran, Leliana, Loghain and Velanna were all known murderers. Justice was a walking corpse, Merril a blood mage, Anders an abomination, the list goes on.

I don't see there's much of a difference in working with one of the Crows, a qunari Sten, or a Desire demon.

The "difference" will probably involve something along the lines of the Desire demon manipulating you, your spirit, possessing your body and mind and resulting in you losing all memory and identity.

I mean seriously, not much difference between an otherworldly being (out of the mortal realm to which you the player/protagonist belong, unless we'd happen to play the role of a spirit protagonist or something) known to "use for needs" (I.E. using you as a tool to meet a need, a purpose) and characters the likes of Sten or Merril? Those characters are mortals. What's the worst Sten can do to you, punch you in the face? He won't exactly chase your spirit after your death if he'd happen to kill you in his rage. A Desire demon, on the other hand? Sheesh.

Ultimately we worked with "questionable people" to achieve a greater good, absolutely, that's the best "difference" there is. You wouldn't be working with a Desire demon to achieve a greater good... maybe "Her's", sure, certainly not yours nor a greater good that would benefit "others", forget about that one when it comes to demons.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...
Demons are evil. Some fans are so unrealistic . Expecting demons to somehow have a change of heart. sheesh.

If Justice can go crazy and become Vengence, I don't see why the opposite can't happen.

Yes, but Vengeance was therefore a demon. A demon that pulled this would by the same token no longer be one. As for guiding a demon through that transition... maybe, if and only if it can be done convincingly.

Moreover, most of Dragon Age so far has been about working with questionable people and organisations to achieve a greater good. Oghren, Sten, Shale, Zevran, Leliana, Loghain and Velanna were all known murderers. Justice was a walking corpse, Merril a blood mage, Anders an abomination, the list goes on.

I don't see there's much of a difference in working with one of the Crows, a qunari Sten, or a Desire demon.

Demons, from all we've seen, are pretty simple creatures. Even Pride Demons, who are speculated to be the most human, are pretty much purely malevolent from all we've seen. Even in the three easy examples that come to mind of demons working with you, (Sofia's demon, Connor's Demon, and the Fade Beast) they did it for their own purposes, and the demon being free in the world after is either heavily implied or shown to be a bad thing. On the other hand, most of the situations you're drawing parellels to involved more complicated characters than that. (Though Justice and Anders still ended badly, since it did involve a demon by the end.) 

As for the original question, in which working with demons as in those three examples should continue to be a thing? Sure, why not? It was fun in Origins.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 décembre 2013 - 03:47 .

[zMataxa]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The lore makes it very clear that spirits/demons are actually quite stupid.

___________________

I'm hoping this is where Bioware takes a new direction in DAI.
I agree with the underlying idea that the OP has put forward.
The issue is demons are so Typecasted as evil manipulative creatures. 
It's a shut and closed case.  Or is it?
You'd have to go the way of "Shrek" - as they did for recasting what an ogre could be.  (For all the literal readers, I mean that in terms of breaking out of the norm of what an ogre is - and not make a shrek demon.)  That recasting worked. 
Could it work for demons?  They'd have to weave quite a compelling story.
Probably easier to come up with new spirit characters.

I general I really like the OP's idea 0f having some Demons (or spirits) cast in shades of grey.
I let both the desire demons in DAO live as well - out of curiosity.
While we are at it, throw "the Maker" concept onto the table for "shades of grey" exploration.
And then leave us with a cliffhangar ending. 

Modifié par zMataxa, 01 décembre 2013 - 04:42 .

[Plaintiff]

I would like to see more complexity in that area, yes. Whenever a story presents a being or group as simply being evil "by nature", I roll my eyes.

Of course, it's Bioware's fictional universe. If they want to say that there is "natural evil" in Thedas, I have to respect that. I just think it's a boring motive for an antagonist's actions.

[Nefla]

Demons are evil and any deal made with them has horrible negative consequences for someone (such as Feynriel and Connor). So they will always be my enemy at least. However as I've said in other threads I really want the game to try to convincingly trick us (via demons) where we are like the DA:O companions who don't know they're in the fade. No fade textures or floating spiky islands, just a convincing illusion that could fool the player and make the PC not immune to demons as they have been in the past.

[Angrywolves]

wishful thinking on the part of posters who want demons to have a change of heart. It won't happen, Gaider won't do it, so I feel pretty secure in what will happen in DA concerning demons. People who feel otherwise can write fan fiction reflecting how they would write about it or otherwise fantasize about it.
shrugs.