173 réponses à ce sujet

[metatheurgist]

zMataxa wrote...
I'm hoping this is where Bioware takes a new direction in DAI.
I agree with the underlying idea that the OP has put forward.
The issue is demons are so Typecasted as evil manipulative creatures. 
It's a shut and closed case.  Or is it?
You'd have to go the way of "Shrek" - as they did for recasting what an ogre could be.  (For all the literal readers, I mean that in terms of breaking out of the norm of what an ogre is - and not make a shrek demon.)  That recasting worked. 
Could it work for demons?  They'd have to weave quite a compelling story.
Probably easier to come up with new spirit characters.

I general I really like the OP's idea 0f having some Demons (or spirits) cast in shades of grey.
I let both the desire demons in DAO live as well - out of curiosity.
While we are at it, throw "the Maker" concept onto the table for "shades of grey" exploration.
And then leave us with a cliffhangar ending. 

I believe that's called a deconstruction. It's a technique that sometimes reveals interesting facets of an old story (like Unforgiven) but it doesn't need to happen for everything, every time. And the idea of good demons and evil angels isn't even new, it's been done before.

[zMataxa]

Plaintiff wrote...

I would like to see more complexity in that area, yes. Whenever a story presents a being or group as simply being evil "by nature", I roll my eyes.

Of course, it's Bioware's fictional universe. If they want to say that there is "natural evil" in Thedas, I have to respect that. I just think it's a boring motive for an antagonist's actions.

_________________

I agree.  There's just something "eye opening" and fascinating to the world when you add in all the twists and turns and stay away from the B/W.  Others probably like the B/W because it reaffirms their own preferred world views.
The only value I see for the natural evil creatures is there's no moral ambiguity for the massive slaughters that make up a good portion of the game.  As another poster suggested it's a major XP harvest.

[zMataxa]

metatheurgist wrote...

I believe that's called a deconstruction. It's a technique that sometimes reveals interesting facets of an old story (like Unforgiven) but it doesn't need to happen for everything, every time. And the idea of good demons and evil angels isn't even new, it's been done before.

________

I agree it doesn't need to happen.  I was just voicing a preference here on the friendly social network.

As for good demons, evil angels I wasn't thinking of that.
I was more interested in "shades of grey" spirits of the fade.
More a reflection of humans, such as  Good and selfish, Intelligent and bull-headed, etc.
I love twisty stories with lotsa surprises.
The sky is the limit there.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

[Plaintiff]

Ha.

"You're bad, so you shouldn't try to be better."

Always good advice.

[leaguer of one]

Op...Look up Cole from DA: asunder.

[leaguer of one]

Bat32391 wrote...

I wouldn't mind seeing a demon that was some how warped into being good just like how justice turned into a demon.

....Cole....

[zMataxa]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

___________

What Game instalment are you basing that on?
Based on what they accomplished in DAO - I'd say they should totally do it.
To me DAO is in a way like AC1.  THey got the base built.  Where can they go from here.

DA2 was rushed.  End of story.
ME series is a different group.

Modifié par zMataxa, 01 décembre 2013 - 05:40 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

Dude, They already have been exploring this from Kotor.

[Cainhurst Crow]

zMataxa wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

___________

What Game instalment are you basing that on?
Based on what they accomplished in DAO - I'd say they should totally do it.

DA2 was rushed.  End of story.
ME series is a different group.

And the overwhealming choices in DAO were binary dichotomies. You get two sides, and you can only pick one of those two side, and if you do you have to fully commit to that one side, and that's the end of that.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 01 décembre 2013 - 05:42 .

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

1. Bioware already has been doing this.
2. We alrady have a demon in the story who can be stated to be "not evil"...His name is Cole.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

___________

What Game instalment are you basing that on?
Based on what they accomplished in DAO - I'd say they should totally do it.

DA2 was rushed.  End of story.
ME series is a different group.

And the overwhealming choices in DAO were binary dichotomies. You get two sides, and you can only pick one of those two side, and if you do you have to fully commit to that one side, and that's the end of that.

Nether side is ever stated to be good or bad. Added, there is know reason you have to stick with a choice. Lastly, what you can do changes with the stats and actions you made.

[Cainhurst Crow]

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

1. Bioware already has been doing this.
2. We alrady have a demon in the story who can be stated to be "not evil"...His name is Cole.

Evidence that cole is a demon and not a spirit. Please produce it.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

1. Bioware already has been doing this.
2. We alrady have a demon in the story who can be stated to be "not evil"...His name is Cole.

Evidence that cole is a demon and not a spirit. Please produce it.

What other type of Spirit eats the life energy of people to say in this plain out side of a demon?

[Cainhurst Crow]

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

___________

What Game instalment are you basing that on?
Based on what they accomplished in DAO - I'd say they should totally do it.

DA2 was rushed.  End of story.
ME series is a different group.

And the overwhealming choices in DAO were binary dichotomies. You get two sides, and you can only pick one of those two side, and if you do you have to fully commit to that one side, and that's the end of that.

Nether side is ever stated to be good or bad. Added, there is know reason you have to stick with a choice. Lastly, what you can do changes with the stats and actions you made.

Harrowmont vs Bhelan, harrowmont is presented as overwhealmingly the good choice.

Branka vs Caridin, Branka showed to be overwhealmingly insane evil, caridin as sympathetic good.

Save or Defile the ashes, Kolgrim is depicted as mentally insane and evil, the guardian as completely good.

Side with werewolves or side with elves, zatharin depiceted as completely bitter and evil in his actions, forrest spirit as compasionatly good. Middle option avaliable so I give it a half a point.

Conner, this is the type of mission I would like. Even though the demon is purely evil, and everyone else good, the amount of choice in approaching this mission more then makes up for it.

Circle tower, killing mages bad, sparing mages good. This is pounded on the player harder then a smith forging iron.

So we got 1 and a half points for non-binary approaches, and 4 1/2 for the defult bioware formula.

Above which, is that there is a clear and constant "this is good, that is bad" blakc and white presentation to the whole thing.

[zMataxa]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

____________________

Well, I agree that I don't like the two extremes either. 
Some times it drives me crazy.  But I attribute it to a resource limitation and not a talent limitation.
BUT, and this is a big BUT, i see in many games a progession.
AC1 was a snorefest for me.  Just recently got back into it with AC-Brotherhood (loves the Assassins you can call in - and they are all female in my playthrough! if only Ezio had a fem version) and AC-B is much MUCH better.
The point with AC being, they used AC1 as a platform to build the series on.

So getting back to DA series, DA2 I can excuse because of short dev time. 
Still loved what they accomplished in that short time. 
DAI - well I am not sure what to expect. 
With the challenge of the new engine and focussing on Keeps, exploration and a big Inquisition - I'm willing to again extend them alot of slack for for story dev.  I am hoping the series matures more.  We've seen the elements there, such as the Connor substory, or Jovans story, or Morrigan and Lelianna as fascinating characters.
I'm not so quick to write them off.
I really do see it as a gradual building up of the series.

[Cainhurst Crow]

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

1. Bioware already has been doing this.
2. We alrady have a demon in the story who can be stated to be "not evil"...His name is Cole.

Evidence that cole is a demon and not a spirit. Please produce it.

What other type of Spirit eats the life energy of people to say in this plain out side of a demon?

Justice.

Wynnes spirit.

[zMataxa]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

___________

What Game instalment are you basing that on?
Based on what they accomplished in DAO - I'd say they should totally do it.

DA2 was rushed.  End of story.
ME series is a different group.

And the overwhealming choices in DAO were binary dichotomies. You get two sides, and you can only pick one of those two side, and if you do you have to fully commit to that one side, and that's the end of that.

_______________

Again.  I agree with you 100%.  Drove me crazy some of those binary choices.
Again, at this time, I'm attributing this more to a resource limitation as opposed to talent limitation.

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

Bioware has to demonstrate their ability with a test.

You've forbidden them from taking this test.

You then accuse them of lacking the ability which you have just forbidden them from demonstrating.

[Cainhurst Crow]

That binary dichotomy thing though, isn't just for dragon age. Mass effect suffered from it a lot. Kotor from what I played is chalk full of them as well. SWTOR is most defiantly filled to the brim with those types of choices, in fact most choices don't even give you an option for what side, just how you react to a situation less then choosing the situation itself.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Different shades of good and evil should be explored. But not by bioware, not at this time at their current level of writing at least.

___________

What Game instalment are you basing that on?
Based on what they accomplished in DAO - I'd say they should totally do it.

DA2 was rushed.  End of story.
ME series is a different group.

And the overwhealming choices in DAO were binary dichotomies. You get two sides, and you can only pick one of those two side, and if you do you have to fully commit to that one side, and that's the end of that.

Nether side is ever stated to be good or bad. Added, there is know reason you have to stick with a choice. Lastly, what you can do changes with the stats and actions you made.

Harrowmont vs Bhelan, harrowmont is presented as overwhealmingly the good choice.

Branka vs Caridin, Branka showed to be overwhealmingly insane evil, caridin as sympathetic good.

Save or Defile the ashes, Kolgrim is depicted as mentally insane and evil, the guardian as completely good.

Side with werewolves or side with elves, zatharin depiceted as completely bitter and evil in his actions, forrest spirit as compasionatly good. Middle option avaliable so I give it a half a point.

Conner, this is the type of mission I would like. Even though the demon is purely evil, and everyone else good, the amount of choice in approaching this mission more then makes up for it.

Circle tower, killing mages bad, sparing mages good. This is pounded on the player harder then a smith forging iron.

So we got 1 and a half points for non-binary approaches, and 4 1/2 for the defult bioware formula.

Above which, is that there is a clear and constant "this is good, that is bad" blakc and white presentation to the whole thing.

"harrowmont is presented as overwhealmingly the good choice."
...Outside the fact he wants to keep the retrictions on the castless and close off Ozamarr to the outside world.

"Branka showed to be overwhealmingly insane evil."

Not at all.  She more of a people who'll do anything to save her people, not kill people just because. She sees that the dwarven people's world is crumbling around that while the nobles fight over scraps. She's not evil.

"Circle tower, killing mages bad"

More of a case you don't know who's the blood mage or abomination.

"Save or Defile the ashes, Kolgrim is depicted as mentally insane and evil, the guardian as completely good."

I'm not arguing that Kolgrim is not insane or evil  but you can't say the same for the guardian. Something is off about him and Oghran points it out. Added, why should it be a good thing to bend to someone elses beliefs.

"Side with werewolves or side with elves, zatharin depiceted as completely bitter and evil in his actions."

That's also subjective. A person can see that both sides are wrong when you here the full story.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 décembre 2013 - 06:03 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

Bioware has to demonstrate their ability with a test.

You've forbidden them from taking this test.

You then accuse them of lacking the ability which you have just forbidden them from demonstrating.

I've forbidden them, assuming I have such power in the first place, from skipping the other test in order to take an advanced calculus test.

I want to see them take steps in the right direction first. Maybe have a non-crazy/megolomaniac villain? Or perhaps give us an option to not get involved in one colfict or another and focus on others? They could even do something as simple as giving us the option to control how we react to the railroaded two-chioce option they give us? Like we pick a side, then we get to pick if we're gladly taking that side, begrudingly taking that side, or downright resentful about taking that side?

Simple things, that help move them along  towards advanced calculus without having them suffer from over-streach.

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You don't bump remedial math kids up into advance calculus just cause they say they can do it.

They gotta work their way up the progression chain, and demonstrate their ability with test. These test for bioware take the forms of their games, which have continually reverted back to their "there are two sides, black and white, and there is no room for middle ground" choice systesm. Whenever they deviated from this model, they have produced sub-par work.

So, until they can demonstrate they are capable of writing such issues in a non-insulting manner I will continue to not have faith in their ability to do so.

1. Bioware already has been doing this.
2. We alrady have a demon in the story who can be stated to be "not evil"...His name is Cole.

Evidence that cole is a demon and not a spirit. Please produce it.

What other type of Spirit eats the life energy of people to say in this plain out side of a demon?

Justice.

Wynnes spirit.

Nope. They were just bounded to a living thing or object. They did not eat anyones life energy. In fact, Wynne is only alive because of that spirit. How can it eat her life energ?

Sorry, but only demons are show to eat life energy in DAO.

[zMataxa]

Based on the characters and substories in the DA universe vs the ME universe - I wouldn't make a comparison between the two different dev groups. Did the DA group dev the SWTOR series?