173 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

I agree I don't want demons/spirits to be mwahahahahahaha evil thats boring in my opinion.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 01 décembre 2013 - 09:27 .

[Reznore57]

Well I already think demons and spirits are boring.
They get vaguely interesting when they get in touch with different emotions , like Justice possessing a corpse and Anders later.But still they remain very single minded .

I guess their struggle dealing with the mortal world is more interesting , than the whole trying to tempt you.
I mean it could be nice if Cole is a companion , you befriend him and later you find out he's a sort of demon.Then your inquisior could wonder if Cole will try to posess him/her , can a demon be trustworthy?

[Bigdoser]

Funny enough I am expecting a spec in DAI that deals with demons and their power its too good to pass up considering the kind of issue DAI is dealing with. Interesting fact that demons call mortals creatures considering the conversation you have with the desire "spirit" during the whole conner issue. 

After talking with merrill I agree that calling them demons is silly they are all spirits(demon is the chantry word) and you have to be careful around all of them even the "good" ones. Considering what happend to the spirit of justice and anders.

Plus I don't even think they are the makers children consdering justice had no idea who the hell the maker was he never heard of that entity before. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

zMataxa wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, but I just don't see any argument for revising that word's definition at all.

A spirit became a demon, and I didn't object. So clearly I'm okay with some major shifts in the way those two archetypes work.

I think that's cool that you're ok with major shifts.
As for an argument to revise it - well if I want to play devils's advocate - I could say that maybe "my group" doesn't like B/W definitions to describe any sapient creatures.  Instead, shades of grey are preferred.  The idea being pure evil and pure good are myths. 
But that opens a huge debate on the value of B/W vs shades of grey.
And I don't have the time for that.  So I'll just have to leave this door open there.

That's already present, though. The Templars are leery of Spirit Healers because of the innate danger of working with things from the Fade, and reluctantly tolerate it because of the good they can do. Justice is stated by the fluff and by Anders to have turned into a demon, but even then he has a moral case to be made with regards to the act that is meant to really showcase this. (Edit: I don't think it's a strong case, hence why I'm not arguing Vengeance is misclassified, but he still has a case.) Meanwhile, two of the four "spirits" you can summon in the Summoning Sciences quest can be argued to be misclassified. Merill even says that it might be safer to dispense with the dichotomy altogether and just assume that all spirits/demons are dangerous beings with their own agendas. I think there's more of a distinction than that, but she's not wrong that there's some serious overlap.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:07 .

[Angrywolves]

I don't want any major shifts.

[Zyree]

 I always assumed that the spirits and demons were two beings from oppisite sides of their own emotional/moral spectrums. They were both extremes, one for "good" and one for "bad" but that extremes of anything can be bad in the long run, so it was really an issue of what morality they would been seen as possessing, if in fact they posses any moral sense at all.

For example:

The reason Sloth is bad is because if you know something is wrong/needs to be done but you do not do it, then you are denying and disrespecting the rights of others. If you see a form of opression that you can not justify, and you do not act out to get rid of that opression, then you are just as bad as those commiting the opression. A moderate is just as bad as the fanatic, but at least the fanatic fights for what it believes in.

Which brings in Diligence, the oppisite of Sloth, which is someone who is zealous. Being active in your community and acting towards your goals, the goals of others, and acting against what you percieve as bad, is a "good" thing. Someone who is diliginte always acts towards their goals and makes sure they never waste time. And while this could be "good", taking it to the extreme can cause it to be bad, because you become a fanatic. There is also the whole issue of what the person sees as "good" and "bad". Someone may diligently work towards getting all people of a certain race enslaved/killed because they believe that is best, but they are still committing an act many would see as immoral.

So I guess, maybe demons and spirits, or the beings classified as demons and spirits, are just extremes of one side or the other? Like neither is really good or really evil, they just are classified as such because the demons follow the extreme that most people see as evil, and spirits tend to follow the extreme that most people see as good. They are, technically in that sense, different beings, one just happens to have the inclination to mess around with the people of Thedas, and the other doesn't have any need to.

That's just me though.

[metatheurgist]

zMataxa wrote...
As for an argument to revise it - well if I want to play devils's advocate - I could say that maybe "my group" doesn't like B/W definitions to describe any sapient creatures.  Instead, shades of grey are preferred.  The idea being pure evil and pure good are myths. 

If you're talking about a human-like race with free-will, individuality, hopes and dreams I'd agree with you. But when you're talking about the supernatural embodiment of all that's negative and wrong in your fantasy universe, I think it's perfectly fine to have creatures that are pure good or pure evil. Demons are evil, Angels Are good. If you want ambiguous demons don't call them demons - call them djinn, or efreet or maybe leprechauns.

Even then - in a fantasy universe where an evil god can impose their will upon their people I'm OK with all Dark Elves being bad.

[TEWR]

"Sin" is the absence of a good trait. It is a "sin" because it corrupts what otherwise would be beneficial not only to the person, but to others as well.

Greed is never good, otherwise it is not greed.

What did this "Greed" demon say in Full Metal Alchemist? I'm curious as to the argument.

That the desire, the want, to save the world from an impending apocalypse was a good thing. That it was a good greed to exhibit. The desire for friends, as well, was talked about. Though bear in mind that since I cannot find the scene in question on youtube -- Christ I hate how everything on Youtube is just a bunch of ****ty (IMO) AMVs -- I can't give you the dialogue where the context is key.

But that was the gist. I don't necessarily subscribe to traditional definitions of the seven deadly sins myself, particularly since the definition of sin isn't necessarily fully agreed upon 100%. There are similar definitions, but that's about it.

And he's not a Demon there. He's a Homonculus derived from a homonculus. You'd have to watch to understand. Good anime too. The author really did her research on real world alchemy while creating her own brand.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Zyree]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"Sin" is the absence of a good trait. It is a "sin" because it corrupts what otherwise would be beneficial not only to the person, but to others as well.

Greed is never good, otherwise it is not greed.

What did this "Greed" demon say in Full Metal Alchemist? I'm curious as to the argument.

That the desire, the want, to save the world from an impending apocalypse was a good thing. That it was a good greed to exhibit. The desire for friends, as well, was talked about. Though bear in mind that since I cannot find the scene in question on youtube -- Christ I hate how everything on Youtube is just a bunch of ****ty (IMO) AMVs -- I can't give you the dialogue where the context is key.

But that was the gist. I don't necessarily subscribe to traditional definitions of the seven deadly sins myself, particularly since the definition of sin isn't necessarily fully agreed upon 100%. There are similar definitions, but that's about it.

And he's not a Demon there. He's a Homonculus derived from a homonculus. You'd have to watch to understand. Good anime too. The author really did her research on real world alchemy while creating her own brand.

Yes, but in this case he is wanting things and wanting them for the right reasons, that is not greed. Greed is "the very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of maternal possesions." Wanting things is okay as long as this desire is held for the right reasons and in the right quantity. Greed is an excess of this desire, an extreme, and that is not "morally right". Too much of a good thing is always bad.

[TEWR]

Again, since the scene doesn't seem to be on youtube, I can't give the appropriate context and dialogue. And as much as I'd love to dig through the episodes looking for it (I have an idea. I think it was at Winry's (secondary character in the story) house) I can't right now.

[Nefla]

Maybe it's because I used to watch so much anime and play so many jrpgs, but to me the whole misunderstood/tormented/half-demon/anti-hero demon/vampire/tortured soul thing is really tired and boring. We have plenty of morally grey or evil forces which may have good members or favorable attributes in the lore already (Tevinter, the Qunari, even the darkspawn, etc...) and I for one would rather have something alien and terrifying that doesn't think like me and will try to trick me out of my life and soul (which as I said before I hope BW convincingly tricks the player) than some emo demon trying to escape its' nature like the "vampires" in twilight.

[TEWR]

nature like the "vampires" in twilight.

Twilight shouldn't even count as a serious literary thing. Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust is a better thing to gauge a "vampire as not always evil" story off of. It did it well and did in two hours what Twilight couldn't do at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:52 .

[Karlone123]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Harrowmont vs Bhelan, harrowmont is presented as overwhealmingly the good choice.

Branka vs Caridin, Branka showed to be overwhealmingly insane evil, caridin as sympathetic good.

Save or Defile the ashes, Kolgrim is depicted as mentally insane and evil, the guardian as completely good.

Side with werewolves or side with elves, zatharin depiceted as completely bitter and evil in his actions, forrest spirit as compasionatly good. Middle option avaliable so I give it a half a point.

Conner, this is the type of mission I would like. Even though the demon is purely evil, and everyone else good, the amount of choice in approaching this mission more then makes up for it.

Circle tower, killing mages bad, sparing mages good. This is pounded on the player harder then a smith forging iron.

So we got 1 and a half points for non-binary approaches, and 4 1/2 for the defult bioware formula.

Above which, is that there is a clear and constant "this is good, that is bad" blakc and white presentation to the whole thing.

Just want to say, Harrowmont is most definitely not painted as the "overwhelmingly good choice." As a paragon to the core, I've never been able to pick him.

At best Harrowmont is honourable, which Bhelen lacks. But Harrowmont isn't so honourable towards the casteless, even those who are not even criminals, as he favours the traditional caste-system and also uses golems to put down a rebellion. He seemingly dooms Orzammar to complete isolation from the surface which the city has become more dependent on.surface trade.

Modifié par Karlone123, 02 décembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[leaguer of one]

Angrywolves wrote...

I don't want any major shifts.

*Looks at Justic and Cole.

Too Late.

[LinksOcarina]

To be fair, have any of the demons really acted evil?

Taking over someones body or making a deal with people is dependent on the intentions of the person. There are examples of demons giving people what they want and it becomes symbiotic as a beneficial relationship; the demon and the human each getting what they need.

this makes the demons parasitic, but not necessarily evil.

[Medhia Nox]

@LinksOcarina: Actually, given their stated mindlessness in the lore - that is actually far more accurate that they are simply parasites performing their function.

It's kinda like "Evil as natural phenomena."

I suppose the problem comes in - in that they seek "complexity" but choosing a host. Becoming aware of good - makes you capable of evil.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:36 .

[LinksOcarina]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LinksOcarina: Actually, given their stated mindlessness in the lore - that is actually far more accurate that they are simply parasites performing their function.

It's kinda like "Evil as natural phenomena."

I suppose the problem comes in - in that they seek "complexity" but choosing a host. Becoming aware of good - makes you capable of evil.

And vice versa, if Justice/Vengence is to be used as the antithesis. It makes the spirits all the more suceptable and humanized than just mindless enemies.

[Medhia Nox]

Which, I would posit, suggests that only becoming an abomination is evil.

Whether it is a spirit or a demon.

Corrupting natural states is the evil act. Not the natural state itself.

[LinksOcarina]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Which, I would posit, suggests that only becoming an abomination is evil.

Whether it is a spirit or a demon.

Corrupting natural states is the evil act. Not the natural state itself.

By this logic, isen't magic and using it also an evil act, since it corrupts the natural state of things through manipulation?

[Angrywolves]

justice and cole.
I have read about cole.; Don't like him and don't want him as a companion.
Justice I think was ultimately a mistake as it tempted Bioware to retcon Anders.Bioware, if you ask them if Justice may return you either get silence or a maybe. so I look for him to return without Anders. But while Justice was cool in awakening he was corrupted in DA2 and I REGARD THAT AS A MISTAKE. So I don't want to have to deal with either of them and if they are in DAI and I have a choice I'll refuse to have anything to do with them,.

[Bfler]

Somebody like Neeshka in NWN2 would be nice. Cole seems to be the DA counterpart, but he is only a depressive killer, while she is a funny and cheeky person.

Modifié par Bfler, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Medhia Nox]

@LinksOcarina: I would not argue that it is an invalid argument to make, and one which is worthy of discussion.

The issue is this - mages are naturally born. So, in the natural laws of Thedas, it is very likely that magic (if natural) fits into those natural laws.

It is also possible that magic is literally a "gift" - though, not a gift as stated in the Chantry IF evil. A gift is given. If - for example - spirits/demons were priming mortals for inhabitation by created mages (gifting them). It would make it unnatural.

I doubt Bioware would take this route - but I think it would be quite unique (cue the person who's going to disagree.)

There's still so little known about magic on Thedas - but I do not believe that "magic itself is evil" is inherently a wrong statement and worth discussing.

I look forward to any thoughts you might have. Note, I am not saying it IS evil - or that what we're talking about proves or solves anything about Thedas. I just like the ideas you're throwing out and trying to add to my own. (Sorry, I've had a problem lately of people assuming I'm stating facts.)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:58 .

[LinksOcarina]

Well, this is where we get into a philosophical axiom of "What can I be certain of?"

Magic is always problematic like that, because most systems or settings tend to have very lax rules on how and why magic exists. For Dragon Age, I always see as magic being the fade itself, manipulated by individuals who have the willpower to do so. Through this, the question now is this, are we certain the fade is a natural world?

Many things point to it being unnatural in a lot of ways, But if we go by chantry teaching, then the fade was created by the maker first. So if we can answer the question regarding the fade and its natural state, then I would say we can answer the rest. If the fade is natural, and mages have the power to use the fade to create magic, then I would say it is not "evil" to use magic, since you are simply using the natural energy of the fade to cast it. However, if the fade is unnatural, then using the fade to cast magic would be "evil" because it is using power that messes with the natural forces of the world.

Of course thats just one way to look at it.