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[Lord Raijin]

HiroVoid wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Orlais is crap. Tevinter rocks.

Blood magic!!!!

Theirs nothing wrong with blood magic

Aside from it being empowered by killing off others?  Blood magic can have good uses, but it certainly has plenty of wrong aspects.

True but that is only if the wrong people get their hands on this art of magic.

[HiroVoid]

Lord Raijin wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Orlais is crap. Tevinter rocks.

Blood magic!!!!

Theirs nothing wrong with blood magic

Aside from it being empowered by killing off others?  Blood magic can have good uses, but it certainly has plenty of wrong aspects.

True but that is only if the wrong people get their hands on this art of magic.

Which they have and will.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

No country in Thedas is free of horrible sins but between Orlais and Tevinter Orlais is the worst of the two.

They are both guilty of having slaves, crushing the elven people, and trying to occupy and subjugate other nations. I actually found it hysterical how identical both countries were when a Blight occurred. Both countries were more than strong enough to hold back the Darkspawn however the countries in between them suffered greatly once they saw how weak they had become both Tevinter and Orlais took over the countries and held them until the nations were able to fight the occupiers out.

The truth is Orlais is the mundane ruled version of Tevinter the only reason I say Orlais is worse is because at least Tevinter is honest they don't hide the fact they have slaves or treat certain groups worse than their own however Orlais likes to pretend that its the moral center of the world and their hands are clean despite the fact they are just as guilty as Tevinter is.

So Orlais is worse because of their hypocrisy.

I've already posted why that is wrong. Every bad thing Orlais has done, Tevinter has done greater in magnitude and quantity. Orlais is not as guilty as Tevinter is.

The only reason Tevinter has done more is because they've been around for longer. Since they've been on the scene at the same time they've both done a very good job at being equally horrible. Remember that time Orlais occupied Fereldan and treated its people like dirt and had that wonderful rape culture?

Then you have the Exalted Marches which cause countless lives to be ended and destroyed whenever a country or group of people do something they don't like.

[Angrywolves]

Tevinter. They WERE the Imperium.

[HiroVoid]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

No country in Thedas is free of horrible sins but between Orlais and Tevinter Orlais is the worst of the two.

They are both guilty of having slaves, crushing the elven people, and trying to occupy and subjugate other nations. I actually found it hysterical how identical both countries were when a Blight occurred. Both countries were more than strong enough to hold back the Darkspawn however the countries in between them suffered greatly once they saw how weak they had become both Tevinter and Orlais took over the countries and held them until the nations were able to fight the occupiers out.

The truth is Orlais is the mundane ruled version of Tevinter the only reason I say Orlais is worse is because at least Tevinter is honest they don't hide the fact they have slaves or treat certain groups worse than their own however Orlais likes to pretend that its the moral center of the world and their hands are clean despite the fact they are just as guilty as Tevinter is.

So Orlais is worse because of their hypocrisy.

I've already posted why that is wrong. Every bad thing Orlais has done, Tevinter has done greater in magnitude and quantity. Orlais is not as guilty as Tevinter is.

The only reason Tevinter has done more is because they've been around for longer. Since they've been on the scene at the same time they've both done a very good job at being equally horrible. Remember that time Orlais occupied Fereldan and treated its people like dirt and had that wonderful rape culture?

Then you have the Exalted Marches which cause countless lives to be ended and destroyed whenever a country or group of people do something they don't like.

Orlais isn't the chantry though.  And how many exhalted marches have there been for Orlais' reasons since the time of Andraste?

[Reaverwind]

Tevinter, without question.

[Gold Dragon]

Orlais is worse.

Simply because we aren't going to Tevinter in Inquisition.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

No country in Thedas is free of horrible sins but between Orlais and Tevinter Orlais is the worst of the two.

They are both guilty of having slaves, crushing the elven people, and trying to occupy and subjugate other nations. I actually found it hysterical how identical both countries were when a Blight occurred. Both countries were more than strong enough to hold back the Darkspawn however the countries in between them suffered greatly once they saw how weak they had become both Tevinter and Orlais took over the countries and held them until the nations were able to fight the occupiers out.

The truth is Orlais is the mundane ruled version of Tevinter the only reason I say Orlais is worse is because at least Tevinter is honest they don't hide the fact they have slaves or treat certain groups worse than their own however Orlais likes to pretend that its the moral center of the world and their hands are clean despite the fact they are just as guilty as Tevinter is.

So Orlais is worse because of their hypocrisy.

I've already posted why that is wrong. Every bad thing Orlais has done, Tevinter has done greater in magnitude and quantity. Orlais is not as guilty as Tevinter is.

The only reason Tevinter has done more is because they've been around for longer. Since they've been on the scene at the same time they've both done a very good job at being equally horrible. Remember that time Orlais occupied Fereldan and treated its people like dirt and had that wonderful rape culture?

Then you have the Exalted Marches which cause countless lives to be ended and destroyed whenever a country or group of people do something they don't like.

Not everything is due to Tevinter's age. But even if were, so what? If there's more atrocities in Tevinter's history, they are worse. Slavery in the Imperium is far more omnipresent and brutal than in Orlais. The Destruction of Arlathan was a far greater catastrophe for the elves than the Fall of the Dales. You think the Imperium didn't treat conquered peoples like dirt?

Codex entries mention Tevinter's corruption more often than they do Orlais'.

The Exalted Marches are almost always called whenever there is a grave threat (the Qunari invasion, the sack of Val Royeaux, the Tevinter occupation of Starkhaven) not just whenver a country does something they don't like.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 décembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

1.That's not true. Orlais made plentry of attemt. It was just stopped by the random coming of a blight and the invation of the Qun. They hand many marches on other counties and people. Unlike Orlais, the Tevinter never have anything  like the servival of the human race stop their campains.

2. The Chantry's will is want ever Orlais tell them what it is. If you're now seeing the roles are different, that was my point. The black chantry is the ruling party in tevinter while in Orlias it control by the nobles. The point is Orlais is in control of the white chantry and make the white chantry do what they want.

3. Not when an entire family of nobles and their servents are killed off and when a civil war happens because of it.

1. Uh, the reason the Imperium began to fall into decline was because of the First Blight. And even that didn't stop them from trying to reconquer the Free Marches on more than one occasion. Orlais was still strong even after the Blights, and didn't attempt to conquer as much as the Imperium did. But as I said, why doesn't matter. The Orlesian Empire has less of a history of conquest compared to the Tevinter Imperium.

2. No The Chantry's will is the Chantry's will. The Divine doesn't answer to Orlaisian nobility. What I meant was the role of the Chantry in Thedas covers different areas than the Orlesian Nobles. Their power structure and purpose is different.  The Empire may have influence but can't just make the Chantry do whatever they want. Otherwise every enemy Orlais has ever had would have been aided by an Exalted March.

3. A rebellion or civil war is not quite the same as the nobles grand game. The Imperium has a lot of those as well but that's not what I was talking about. Although now that you mention it, the Imperium is also worse in keeping order because Fenris says there are slaves rebellions all the time.

1. And they lost. And since then they have not invaded others. Orlais have be doing that. And mid blights Orlais was trying to take control of Tevintor due to the black chantry isuue.

2.Yes, She does. Most times she is just a puppent. If she does not the chantry loses there best benifactors. Just look at the invasion Orlais did on Fereldin and you can see it clearly.

3. This rebilion in DAI was caused by the grand game. So yes it can be that distructive.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1. Yes they have. I already gave you an example.

2. No she does not. If she was just a puppet there would have been calls for Exalted Marches against Ferelden and Nevarra.

3. The Imperium has had it's own civil wars. One that lasted 72 years. I'm pretty certain the Orlesian one isn't going to be as destructive. Also didn't the blurb about The Masked Empire say Gaspard's rebellion was because he lost faith in the Empress?

[dragonflight288]

Orlais isn't the chantry though. And how many exhalted marches have there been for Orlais' reasons since the time of Andraste?

None. Orlais didn't exist until over a hundred years after her death when Drakon chose one of many Andrastian cults to help exalted march all the neighboring city-states into submission and build Orlais as a nation.

[MrMrPendragon]

This debate will never get anywhere if people just keep referencing something that can't really be proven.

People say that the Divine is just a puppet of the Orlesian nobility, and some people are against that. Well truth is, while it does hint towards that idea, we don't know for certain. It was never explicitly stated that the Divine is just some arm of the nobility or whatever. Nor we can say the inverse. We also can't say what someone or something can or can't do because that's just guessing. Nor can we actually say that Orlais/Tevinter is "this and this and this" if that didn't actually happen. We don't count the country's ability to make things happen ( example: Orlais can be a lot more chaotic when riots happen - says who?), we just count the things the already happened.

So it's best to stick to what we DO know. (eg Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, Tevinter slavery, and all that stuff)

If you look at the historical facts (and don't say the "history is wrong" conspiracy bs argument), based on Tevinter's political system and social system, it's a lot worse than Orlais.

[dragonflight288]

As to the original question, I think
they are both equally bad but in different ways. Orlais tries to make
itself seem like the moral center of the world, home of the Chantry.
They are really big on culture, fashion and what is proper. But they are
also some of the largest hypocrites on the international stage. They
outlaw slavery, but Leliana tells an elven warden that Orlais is proud
of its elven slaves...sort of, although they don't call them slaves in
order to feel better about themselves. Fiona was an Orlesian sex slave
before she joined the Circle. Her being a sex-slave had nothing to do
with the chantry or the Circle's, but part of Orlais' culture.

Also,
it's highest ranked military order can legally rape commoners, both
human and elven, without reprisal or consequences, and it's considered
to be one of their rights as part of their service to Orlais.

They
also play politics to such a degree that everyone knows of "the game"
and using bards to one-up each other, borderline committing treason, and
nothing is done about it because it's part of the culture.

So Orlais celebrates murder, rape, assassinations, and espionage while all the while pretending it doesn't exist.

Tevinter has blood mages and slavery, and they don't even both denying it. Their atrocities are just as bad, but at least they're honest about it.

[Rawgrim]

dragonflight288 wrote...

As to the original question, I think
they are both equally bad but in different ways. Orlais tries to make
itself seem like the moral center of the world, home of the Chantry.
They are really big on culture, fashion and what is proper. But they are
also some of the largest hypocrites on the international stage. They
outlaw slavery, but Leliana tells an elven warden that Orlais is proud
of its elven slaves...sort of, although they don't call them slaves in
order to feel better about themselves. Fiona was an Orlesian sex slave
before she joined the Circle. Her being a sex-slave had nothing to do
with the chantry or the Circle's, but part of Orlais' culture.

Also,
it's highest ranked military order can legally rape commoners, both
human and elven, without reprisal or consequences, and it's considered
to be one of their rights as part of their service to Orlais.

They
also play politics to such a degree that everyone knows of "the game"
and using bards to one-up each other, borderline committing treason, and
nothing is done about it because it's part of the culture.

So Orlais celebrates murder, rape, assassinations, and espionage while all the while pretending it doesn't exist.

Tevinter has blood mages and slavery, and they don't even both denying it. Their atrocities are just as bad, but at least they're honest about it.

So Orlais pretends espionage assassinations, murder and rape doesn`t excist? Sounds the the USA, these days.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

OK so this is the third time I've posted this but Tevinter is worse because it's atrocities are on much greater scale and much more pervaisive.

Killing one person and pretending you didn't is bad. Killing 50 people and being honest about it is still objectively worse. It's the same with Orlais and Tevinter.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 décembre 2013 - 02:48 .

[HiroVoid]

Well, I guess it's good to know being stabbed while I'm awake is better than being stabbed in my sleep.

[MrMrPendragon]

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, I guess it's good to know being stabbed while I'm awake is better than being stabbed in my sleep.

I guess it's also good to know that none of which matters since you're dead before you even decide which one is worse.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 01 décembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[TeamLexana]

Tevinter by a long shot.

[dragonflight288]

Rawgrim wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

As to the original question, I think
they are both equally bad but in different ways. Orlais tries to make
itself seem like the moral center of the world, home of the Chantry.
They are really big on culture, fashion and what is proper. But they are
also some of the largest hypocrites on the international stage. They
outlaw slavery, but Leliana tells an elven warden that Orlais is proud
of its elven slaves...sort of, although they don't call them slaves in
order to feel better about themselves. Fiona was an Orlesian sex slave
before she joined the Circle. Her being a sex-slave had nothing to do
with the chantry or the Circle's, but part of Orlais' culture.

Also,
it's highest ranked military order can legally rape commoners, both
human and elven, without reprisal or consequences, and it's considered
to be one of their rights as part of their service to Orlais.

They
also play politics to such a degree that everyone knows of "the game"
and using bards to one-up each other, borderline committing treason, and
nothing is done about it because it's part of the culture.

So Orlais celebrates murder, rape, assassinations, and espionage while all the while pretending it doesn't exist.

Tevinter has blood mages and slavery, and they don't even both denying it. Their atrocities are just as bad, but at least they're honest about it.

So Orlais pretends espionage assassinations, murder and rape doesn`t excist? Sounds the the USA, these days.

The same is true of other countries outside the US, but I won't get into that.

What Orlais does is espionage, assassinate, murder and rape their own citizens legally, and pretend it's not happening. I'm sure that the same things happen in the US, but that's a horse I'm not going to ride as I don't want to get into real-life politics or discuss my opinions on the current administration of my country.

[Silfren]

I don't personally like playing the game of who does what worse, because it leads to the kind of thinking that one nation's practices can be given a free pass for not being as bad as others. Lord knows I've seen it play out that way in people's misguided thinking in real life far too often.

That said, I would venture to say that I at least find Tevinter to be far more honest in its own dealings, which does make me view them as marginally less contemptible.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

OK so this is the third time I've posted this but Tevinter is worse because it's atrocities are on much greater scale and much more pervaisive.

Killing one person and pretending you didn't is bad. Killing 50 people and being honest about it is still objectively worse. It's the same with Orlais and Tevinter.

I agree. But I have to ask this question, does tevinter do such things to its own citizens or is it restricted soley for their slaves?

And no, I'm not defending Tevinter as they are still really bad, but I feel it's important to differentiate legal, economic and social class of the victims as well as the perpetrators in addition to the acts of the guilty.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

OK so this is the third time I've posted this but Tevinter is worse because it's atrocities are on much greater scale and much more pervaisive.

Killing one person and pretending you didn't is bad. Killing 50 people and being honest about it is still objectively worse. It's the same with Orlais and Tevinter.

I agree. But I have to ask this question, does tevinter do such things to its own citizens or is it restricted soley for their slaves?

And no, I'm not defending Tevinter as they are still really bad, but I feel it's important to differentiate legal, economic and social class of the victims as well as the perpetrators in addition to the acts of the guilty.

A Tevinter magister can do whatever they want to anyone. Slaves are the most convenient vicitms. But since the Imperium has a so many slaves it's hardly a problem for them. Morally speaking, I'm not sure what the difference is though. Isn't that what the argument is about?

Chevaliers are above legal reporach from the common classes, but they aren't the most poweful members of the nobility nor do they have the same freedom as magisters. There are certain expectations placed on Chevaliers and if they don't live up to them they are in trouble. Chevaliers are expected to die if they fail to live up to their code of honor.

In Tevinter society the legal, economic and social class disparities between are much greater among the population as well. All non mages are in the lower classes and are legally forbidden to rise above a certain status. And there is a huge population of slaves. As such Tevinter probably has fewer people that qualify as citizens at all than Orlais, even freed slaves in the Imperium don't count as citizens.

[Silfren]

Lebdood wrote...

Black Jimmy wrote...

 Haven't seen either. We'll find out Fall 2014

Blunt.

Although that's technically not true.

We saw Orlais in the Dawn of the Seeker movie 

And in Asunder.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

OK so this is the third time I've posted this but Tevinter is worse because it's atrocities are on much greater scale and much more pervaisive.

Killing one person and pretending you didn't is bad. Killing 50 people and being honest about it is still objectively worse. It's the same with Orlais and Tevinter.

I agree. But I have to ask this question, does tevinter do such things to its own citizens or is it restricted soley for their slaves?

And no, I'm not defending Tevinter as they are still really bad, but I feel it's important to differentiate legal, economic and social class of the victims as well as the perpetrators in addition to the acts of the guilty.

A Tevinter magister can do whatever they want to anyone. Slaves are the most convenient vicitms. But since the Imperium has a so many slaves it's hardly a problem for them. Morally speaking, I'm not sure what the difference is though. Isn't that what the argument is about?

Chevaliers are above legal reporach from the common classes, but they aren't the most poweful members of the nobility nor do they have the same freedom as magisters. There are certain expectations placed on Chevaliers and if they don't live up to them they are in trouble. Chevaliers are expected to die if they fail to live up to their code of honor.

In Tevinter society the legal, economic and social class disparities between are much greater among the population as well. All non mages are in the lower classes and are legally forbidden to rise above a certain status. And there is a huge population of slaves. As such Tevinter probably has fewer people that qualify as citizens at all than Orlais, even freed slaves in the Imperium don't count as citizens.

I'll direct my comments in the order of bolded, italicized and underlined.

I'm sure it is about morality. I've just recently taken an ethics class and I'm doing a mental exercise on the limits of societal morality mainly, exploring options as it were. I probably should've made that clear, and it's not what I really believe, but rather it's me exploring the possibilities and seeing if it inspires other possibilities of viewing it, even as we all agree that the actions are horrendous and neither side gets a free-pass.

A code of honor that only applies to nobility or high ranking military. To me, honor is only honorable when it applies to all circumstances. If you think it is dishonorable to lie, then it is dishonorable to lie in ALL circumstances, even if it may bring harm to someone else, even someone you know, directly or indirectly, if you were to tell the truth. Or if you believe it is dishonorable to fight someone who is no match against you, then it is dishonorable for EVERYONE, not just fellow knights or nobles. It would also apply to the peasants, merchants, and so on.

Chevalier's are rewarded for their service with these rights that allow them to take advantage of lower classes without reprisal. If they are expected to behave honorable, then those rights wouldn't have been granted in the first place.

And yet freed slaves can rise in rank and social class if certain conditions are met. Fenris/Leto competed to free his mother and sister. And while they felt freedom wasn't a boon (probably similar to Orana, didn't know how to handle it,) Verania, by virtue of being a mage, could also rise up to magister's apprentice and could've gone from slave to high noble because of her individual circumstances.

I'm not saying this is a good system, but the opportunities to rise in social and economic class are there. I won't say they are or aren't in Orlais because I haven't seen enough of Orlais to make an accurate statement. But saying all freed slaves don't qualify as citizens doesn't make any sense given Fenris' family.

Either way, I strongly dislike both nations and for completely different reasons, and my dislike is roughly equal in measure, so I see them both in the same negative light. Different colors of that negative light to be sure, but just as bad as the other.

[TK514]

I'd say the place we have firsthand experience with being slaving douchebags (multiple occasions) instead of the place where the only reports of wrongdoing we have are hearsay.