721 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Graphics don';t have anything to do with gameplay. Nor do they have anything to do with dialogue importance or writing.

It's a demand for more higher quality games, over cheap dime-a-dozen copy cashout games. A demand that games come up with good writing and a good story before they decide to just make a flashy, glitzy, star-****er of a mediocre turd and expect people to pay full price for it gleefully.

Or to put it in terms you both might understand, wanting more films like terminator, empire strikes back, lord of the rings, dirty harry, avengers, etc. And less movies like OZ: Great and Powerful, the prequel trilogy of star wars, world war z, bullet to the head, R.I.P.D., and after earth.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 03 décembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[Br3admax]

Dooku thought as you did. Where is he now?

[Jozape]

David7204 wrote...

We have all this supposed support for old school games with old school mechanics and look where they are: Panhandling for money over Kickstarter just to get a product out. And the majority will probably end up failing anyway. Meanwhile the AAA games with AAA graphics make hundreds of millions.

That time has passed. Evolve or die.

This seems like a premature judgement to me. None of the big KickStarter RPGs, Wasteland 2; Torment: Tides of Numenera; and Pillars of Eternity, have been released yet. Additionally, I find it incredible that 70,000 to 80,000 people were willing to shell out an average of 50 USD to fund sequels to decades old games which were not even in serious development yet. All without an enormous advertising campaign and on a new concept of funding.

Not that I expect it, but some of the games could end up selling very well after release. We should wait and see before judging.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

We have all this supposed support for old school games with old school mechanics and look where they are: Panhandling for money over Kickstarter just to get a product out. And the majority will probably end up failing anyway. Meanwhile the AAA games with AAA graphics make hundreds of millions.

That time has passed. Evolve or die.

That's only because execs refuse to fund them. Games like Project Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera made over 4 million dollars each from Kickstarter. You really think games that have received support like that will "fail"? Your arrogant disdain for any non-AAA game is pathetic. I hope you never become the head of a large video game publisher.

[AresKeith]

Br3ad wrote...

Dooku thought as you did. Where is he now?

Dooku was a good myn

[Cainhurst Crow]

Br3ad wrote...

Dooku thought as you did. Where is he now?

Murdered in his sleep by harkin that's where.

[David7204]

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We have all this supposed support for old school games with old school mechanics and look where they are: Panhandling for money over Kickstarter just to get a product out. And the majority will probably end up failing anyway. Meanwhile the AAA games with AAA graphics make hundreds of millions.

That time has passed. Evolve or die.

That's only because execs refuse to fund them. Games like Project Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera made over 4 million dollars each from Kickstarter. You really think games that have received support like that will "fail"? Your arrogant disdain for any non-AAA game is pathetic. I hope you never become the head of a large video game publisher.

'Disdain?' Not at all. I completely respect these games for what they are. Small projects with limited funding appealing to a niche audience. My 'disdain' is with the very silly idea that this is what developers should be looking towards for the future - throwing away the fruits of modern technology and the lessons learned over decades of releasing games.

Modifié par David7204, 03 décembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We have all this supposed support for old school games with old school mechanics and look where they are: Panhandling for money over Kickstarter just to get a product out. And the majority will probably end up failing anyway. Meanwhile the AAA games with AAA graphics make hundreds of millions.

That time has passed. Evolve or die.

That's only because execs refuse to fund them. Games like Project Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera made over 4 million dollars each from Kickstarter. You really think games that have received support like that will "fail"? Your arrogant disdain for any non-AAA game is pathetic. I hope you never become the head of a large video game publisher.

'Disdain?' Not at all. I completely respect these games for what they are. Small projects with limited funding appealing to a niche audience. My 'disdain' is with the very silly idea that this is what developers should be looking towards for the future - throwing away the fruits of modern technology and the lessons learned over decades of releasing games.

Slender: The Eight Pages and Slender: The Arrival are both indie games, the first one being free to play, and are 100000000 times scarier then any modern horror games. Also a lot more popular as far as I can tell.

The silly idea is thinking that just because you're throwing tons and tons of money at something, it'll be good while investing much more time and passion into something while using a smaller budget will always be inferior.

[David7204]

First of all, it's foolish to assume that smaller projects are going to have more passion. Secondly, it's foolish to assume smaller problems have more time devoted to them. In fact, pretty much by definition, smaller projects have fewer man-hours.

Secondly, I'm very interested to learn that two games I've never even so much as heard of are apparently "a lot more popular" (outselling?) than modern horror games. I'm interested to know why these games are indie at all if they're outselling giants such as Resident Evil and whatever.

Thirdly, nothing in my post said anything remotely close to more expensive games necessarily being better. So I have no idea where you pulled that from. There's no denying plenty of indie games are good and AAA games are crap.

Modifié par David7204, 03 décembre 2013 - 12:51 .

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We have all this supposed support for old school games with old school mechanics and look where they are: Panhandling for money over Kickstarter just to get a product out. And the majority will probably end up failing anyway. Meanwhile the AAA games with AAA graphics make hundreds of millions.

That time has passed. Evolve or die.

That's only because execs refuse to fund them. Games like Project Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera made over 4 million dollars each from Kickstarter. You really think games that have received support like that will "fail"? Your arrogant disdain for any non-AAA game is pathetic. I hope you never become the head of a large video game publisher.

'Disdain?' Not at all. I completely respect these games for what they are. Small projects with limited funding appealing to a niche audience. My 'disdain' is with the very silly idea that this is what developers should be looking towards for the future - throwing away the fruits of modern technology and the lessons learned over decades of releasing games.

"Evolve or die" sounds like disdain to me. The implication is that any game that doesn't "evolve" as far as graphics go is doomed, but Kickstarter utterly destroyed that notion. In fact, many of the games on Kickstarter are much more story-focused (particularly the aforementioned Project Eternity and Torment:ToN) than most big AAA titles nowadays. This is because they aren't beholden to  higherlevel execs like Bioware is to EA, and don't have to worry about things like shareholders or meeting profit goals.  As someone who keeps going on and on about storytelling, I'd think you of all people, David, would support story-focused games on Kickstarter.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, it's foolish to assume that smaller projects are going to have more passion. Secondly, it's foolish to assume smaller problems have more time devoted to them. In fact, pretty much by definition, smaller projects have fewer man-hours.

Secondly, I'm very interested to learn that two games I've never even so much as heard of are apparently "a lot more popular" (outselling?) than modern horror games. I'm interested to know why these games are indie at all if they're outselling giants such as Resident Evil and whatever.

Thirdly, nothing in my post said anything remotely close to more expensive games necessarily being better. So I have no idea where you pulled that from. There's no denying plenty of indie games are good and AAA games are crap.

It's equally foolish to assume AAA devs make millions because of shiny graphics and not because they spend a buttload of money on ads using prerendered cutscenes.

[David7204]

It's time to snap out of your fantasy, Someguy. You think small developers live in a magical realm of not having to worry about budgets and profits? Laughable. I suggest you get used to the harsh reality that content depends on money, because that's the world we live in.

[David7204]

Greylycantrope wrote...

It's equally foolish to assume AAA devs make millions because of shiny graphics and not because they spend a buttload of money on ads using prerendered cutscenes.

No, 'foolish' would be thinking that developers have invested millions or billions into improving graphics for no reason since sales are just dependent on ads. And that for some reason, nobody has figured out that they can get high AAA sales without graphics just by spending a 'buttload on ads.'

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

It's time to snap out of your fantasy, Someguy. You think small developers live in a magical realm of not having to worry about budgets and profits? Laughable. I suggest you get used to the harsh reality that content depends on money, because that's the world we live in.

Of course it depends on money. Why else would Kickstarter exist? What I dispute is your "evolve or die" mentality regarding these small games. You're the one who's living in a fantasy since Kickstarter is living proof that developers don't need AAA graphics or need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make good story-focused games. Planescape:Torment was released in 1999 and I still found it a better story experience than any Bioware game, outdated graphics and all.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Wii sports is still the best selling console game of all time and it's graphics are sh*t.

[David7204]

Here's the problem. You're not demanding a good story doesn't need a good graphics. You're demanding that they can't have them. That obviously, any focus on graphics is an appeal to the 'COD crowd' and comes at the expanse of storytelling. That games are doomed to suck because developers will never give storytelling the focus it needs unless they throw away graphics. That companies like BioWare should therefore abandon focus on graphics altogether.

That is plainly ridiculous nonsense.

Modifié par David7204, 03 décembre 2013 - 01:16 .

[madebynike]

I was really impressed with the promo photos, and the fact we can personalise the appearance/armour/weapons of our companions (I had a full silver armour squad accompany me in Dragon Age: Origins - it's nice having matching armour!);
Also the elemental effects are very imporant - just look how cool the combat/powers/skills looked in other games like Fable 3 and Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning..!

[Nonoru]

Seival wrote...

They can decrease the planned amount of cut-scenes and dialogues to make the rest look much better. It's not too late yet. They are still on the early stage of development.

   

So you want another FFXIII? You can truly tell it sold so well. 

[SlottsMachine]

"Visual part is very important. It makes the characters and the world alive." All I got out of that was Seival thread.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Nonoru wrote...

Seival wrote...

They can decrease the planned amount of cut-scenes and dialogues to make the rest look much better. It's not too late yet. They are still on the early stage of development.

   

So you want another FFXIII? You can truly tell it sold so well. 

But it did sell, that is the travesty here.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

Here's the problem. You're not demanding a good story doesn't need a good graphics. You're demanding that they can't have them. That obviously, any focus on graphics is an appeal to the 'COD crowd' and comes at the expanse of storytelling. That games are doomed to suck because developers will never give storytelling the focus it needs unless they throw away graphics. That companies like BioWare should therefore abandon focus on graphics altogether.

That is plainly ridiculous nonsense.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never once argued or even implied that AAA graphics and good storytelling are mutually exclusive. My argument is that AAA games are more prone to executive meddling than the types of games seen on Kickstarter, which in turn causes them to have worse stories. Of course, there are exceptions, but I'm speaking as a general rule.

By the way, a while back, you said this:

"Is that right? So who exactly is the developer making a mint off of that
willingness to throw away modern graphics and gameplay? Where exactly
is the huge profit off of that interest, again?
"

www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera

Over $4 million raised out of a $900,000 goal, a profit margin of over 300% Sounds like "huge profit" to me.

www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity

Almost $4 million raised with a 1.1 million goal. Again, huge profit.

inExile and Obsidian Entertainment. There's two of your developers "making a mint", and browsing Kickstarter will reveal many more.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

Here's the problem. You're not demanding a good story doesn't need a good graphics. You're demanding that they can't have them. That obviously, any focus on graphics is an appeal to the 'COD crowd' and comes at the expanse of storytelling. That games are doomed to suck because developers will never give storytelling the focus it needs unless they throw away graphics. That companies like BioWare should therefore abandon focus on graphics altogether.

That is plainly ridiculous nonsense.

You haven't read any of the thread or how sevial demanded bioware remove dialouge and trim it back, plus remove mechanics they told would be in the game at their big demo, becasue he wanted them to put it all into graphics and having "professional actors" replace everyone so everything could be "professional". Also, that it wasn't too late for bioware to not make the mistake of making everything dolls instead of hiring "professionals" to do their "professional" thing.

So here is everyone responding to that train of thought telling them no, you need to focus on writing first and foremost in a story driven game, and graphics after that fact. And here you come futzing in here with your own ideas of what's going on and condemning everyone else for not getting it.

You're a putz.

[__c]

OP...

It looks like you don't really care about playing RPG. Honestly... why are you here?

10h one weekend top of the line cinematic [forgettable] experience with minimal input is not my thing. I would prefer resources to go toward story, characters and in general content of DA world.

How about rather than wasting money on overpriced hollywood stuff, we spend it to make another interesting quest chain or two... or more dialogue or another race or couple of unique companions/NPCs etc.

Modifié par __c, 03 décembre 2013 - 01:39 .

[David7204]

Fact of life, Darth. Everything else in game development does not bow down to writing. Plots and characters get cut, dialogue streamlined, environments and enemies are scaled down. This isn't a choose your own adventure book. A game is more than words. And it should be.