91 réponses à ce sujet

[lady_v23]

I believe that you believe that others believe that other realms of reality exists

[AutumnWitch]

Well even most cosmologists/astronomers/physicists now accept that there may be alternate universes so in a way its not that far fetched. They fact is we know very little about our own universe so who are we to makes rules that say others can't/don't exist?

[Lady Abstract]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Well even most cosmologists/astronomers/physicists now accept that there may be alternate universes so in a way its not that far fetched. They fact is we know very little about our own universe so who are we to makes rules that say others can't/don't exist?

I agree. I feel that who are we to assume something doesnt exist when we cant even comprehend the things that go on on our own planet much less he universe

[Lady Abstract]

metatheurgist wrote...

There is 0 evidence that other realities exist. And I'm the kind of person that needs at least some kind of proof that something is real - so I don't believe. I think it'd be awesome if they did and as far as I understand it the current state of physics does not disallow the existence of parallel or other realities. Some theories even actively promote them.

What if everything was right in our faces? What if we are looking at things but not percieving them correctly because we are blinded by our own understanding of things. Our understanding is based upon the understanding of others. Sometimes things are not what they seem. The human eye is fragile which is why it can be tricked by optical illusions. Sometimes we are and are not looking at things for what they are. We percieve things based upon a limited perspective. Limited minds=Limited perspectives. Everything is based on perception of the mind. If the mind is open perhaps we can see things that were so obvious but since we lie in our own understanding we totally missed it. So just because there is 0 evidence to you doesnt mean evidence doesnt exist. Evidence could be right in your face and you just dont see it because your perception and reality is limited

Modifié par QU33N_ANG3L, 02 décembre 2013 - 09:30 .

[Jozape]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Well even most cosmologists/astronomers/physicists now accept that there may be alternate universes so in a way its not that far fetched. They fact is we know very little about our own universe so who are we to makes rules that say others can't/don't exist?

To understand the context of scientists accepting that there could be alternate universes is important. This is admitting ignorance, not admitting belief, which any good scientist should do. A good scientist stays in touch with empirical evidence and seeks out the truth before falling on an unjustified belief.

So yes, there could be alternate universes and multiple dimensions, but strings and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics will have to survive experiment first.

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

I agree. I feel that who are we to assume something doesnt exist when we cant even comprehend the things that go on on our own planet much less he universe

But we can comprehend what happens on our planet and even the universe. It is not easy, and takes geniuses like Albert Einstein and armies of scientists at the LHC, but we are understanding the world one step at a time.

How do we do this? We use the scientific method. Basically:

• Make an observation.
• Make a guess, also known as a hypothesis, to explain what was observed, based on what is already known.
• Make another observation while testing the hypothesis.
• Draw a conclusion based on the observation in step 3. If the hypothesis does not agree with observation, go back to step 2.

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

What if everything was right in our faces? What if we are looking at things but not percieving them correctly because we are blinded by our own understanding of things. Our understanding is based upon the understanding of others. Sometimes things are not what they seem. The human eye is fragile which is why it can be tricked by optical illusions. Sometimes we are and are not looking at things for what they are. We percieve things based upon a limited perspective. Limited minds=Limited perspectives. Everything is based on perception of the mind. If the mind is open perhaps we can see things that were so obvious but since we lie in our own understanding we totally missed it. So just because there is 0 evidence to you doesnt mean evidence doesnt exist. Evidence could be right in your face and you just dont see it because your perception and reality is limited

The great thing about the modern science is the availability of instruments which far exceed any measurement the human is capable of through their own senses. Even if we cannot feel a field, such as the nuclear strong field, we can measure its influence. We can measure light waves far beyond what the eye is capable of, at levels far below what could stimulate the optic nerve. We can even observe particles, neutrinos, which pass through us and the Earth without ever interacting with the particles of the Earth or us. And trillions of them pass through us every second! If there exist a thing in our universe, the thing can be measured one way or another, whether directly or indirectly, because our instruments make up for the flaws and shortcomings of humans.

[Ninja Stan]

No, we certainly don't (and can't) know everything about the nature of the universe, but that does not imply that any one theory or another is true, untrue, likely, or unlikely. I'm with Jozape on this one--he or she has good science.

Let's try to keep the spam down to a minimum, please.

[GoodyProctor]

If God wills it, yes, there can be other realms within this universe.

[xAmilli0n]

I've always found the idea of a multiverse fascinating, if nothing else. It opens up so many possibilities and raises many interesting questions. Of course we have no evidence for it and there are many other great ideas being thrown around in the science world.

However, I don't believe anything in the universe is unknowable, and in time we should have all the answers we want...it just might take a REALLY long time.

[Lady Abstract]

Jozape wrote...

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

I agree. I feel that who are we to assume something doesnt exist when we cant even comprehend the things that go on on our own planet much less he universe

But we can comprehend what happens on our planet and even the universe. It is not easy, and takes geniuses like Albert Einstein and armies of scientists at the LHC, but we are understanding the world one step at a time.

How do we do this? We use the scientific method. Basically:

• Make an observation.
• Make a guess, also known as a hypothesis, to explain what was observed, based on what is already known.
• Make another observation while testing the hypothesis.
• Draw a conclusion based on the observation in step 3. If the hypothesis does not agree with observation, go back to step 2.

I meant the many wonders of the world...the many theories such as lochness monsters, lost cities, bermuda and dragons triangle, pyramids, the 7 wonders of the world, hieroglyphics, the ocean is a world within itself, prophecies, people who experience being thrown out of bed and other paranormal things; those are the things that happen(ed)(s) on Earth that people cant quite comprehend. We dont even understand our own Earth. Alot of science is just theory.

Modifié par QU33N_ANG3L, 03 décembre 2013 - 02:29 .

[metatheurgist]

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...
I meant the many wonders of the world...the many theories such as lochness monsters, lost cities, bermuda and dragons triangle, pyramids, the 7 wonders of the world, hieroglyphics, the ocean is a world within itself, prophecies, people who experience being thrown out of bed and other paranormal things; those are the things that happen(ed)(s) on Earth that people cant quite comprehend. We dont even understand our own Earth. Alot of science is just theory.

Let's just tackle one part of that. The paranormal and let's focus on ghosts. People claim ghost sightings all the time. There are probably 20 different ghost hunting shows on right now and they've been running for years. They've probably captured 100s of years of grainy film, sound, infrared imagery and magnetic readouts and yet not one of them has managed to capture a single frame of believable evidence that ghosts exist.

Scientists aren't wilfully ignorant, if you can bring them evidence of an new and unexplainable force to show them they'd rejoice. They'd want to investigate it - why? 'coz they're scientists! The fact of the matter is no one can demonstrate anything paranormal exists.

I have to ask what about our earth don't you think we understand? And remember virtually everything around you was built by scientific theory.

[Lady Abstract]

metatheurgist wrote...

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...
I meant the many wonders of the world...the many theories such as lochness monsters, lost cities, bermuda and dragons triangle, pyramids, the 7 wonders of the world, hieroglyphics, the ocean is a world within itself, prophecies, people who experience being thrown out of bed and other paranormal things; those are the things that happen(ed)(s) on Earth that people cant quite comprehend. We dont even understand our own Earth. Alot of science is just theory.

Let's just tackle one part of that. The paranormal and let's focus on ghosts. People claim ghost sightings all the time. There are probably 20 different ghost hunting shows on right now and they've been running for years. They've probably captured 100s of years of grainy film, sound, infrared imagery and magnetic readouts and yet not one of them has managed to capture a single frame of believable evidence that ghosts exist.

Scientists aren't wilfully ignorant, if you can bring them evidence of an new and unexplainable force to show them they'd rejoice. They'd want to investigate it - why? 'coz they're scientists! The fact of the matter is no one can demonstrate anything paranormal exists.

I have to ask what about our earth don't you think we understand? And remember virtually everything around you was built by scientific theory.

The Bermuda and the Dragons triangle that has yet to be explained. Its obviously something happening within the Earth...then why cant we humans explain whats going on? The 7 wonders of the world...why are they still wonders? hieroglyphics scientists or people whatever they still dont understand them. When you watch the history channel or national geographics and etc its always speculation on different topics of Earth in-which people dont understand. Lost cities? How did they get lost? Why did they get lost? Scientists obviously acknowledge this concept.

[Fishy]

Has I see it .. Let's assume we're only able to see in white. Color would not exist. How could we know color existed if we could only see in complete white ? So let's assume we have more developped sense and that we're much more intelligent creature. We could be aware of thing that do not exist for us right now.

That one of the main reason I am agnostic. Science can go has far  has we can let it go. A dog could never build a spaceship. So maybe the human race can't go or everywhere either. There's probably thing or stuff we won't ever be able to see or build. Does not mean it could never be build by someone, but not by us.

So someone who claim that something is impossible is has foolish for me than someone claiming something does only based on his faith. We don't know everything, but can't pretend that something does only with assumption either. So it's a big void of question not answered.

Modifié par Suprez30, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:46 .

[Jarl Johnnie Walker]

Jozape wrote...

Jarl Johnnie Walker wrote...

This macrocosm is very old. We know a good deal about it. But then sometimes you gotta think. What if we got the "rules" of the cosmos wrong?

The "rules" of the "cosmos" are the same as the rules of physics, and they most certainly are not wrong; incomplete, sure, but not wrong.

Unless you are saying you do not believe in general relativity, quantum mechanics, or quantum field theory and the standard model. These are not just some of our most accurate theories in history, they are the most accurate and precise theories in history. Sure, they do not tell us everything about the cosmos; for example, they do not tell us about dark matter or dark energy. But what they do explain, they explain almost perfectly.

I think you're reading into what I said on that matter a little to much.

There are an infinite numbers of insane possibilities we could not test. Why should we believe any of them? And why that specific possibility or possibilities?

We shouldn't. Just throwing out things.

We could not know. There is no way to deduce it or observe it. And indeed, if we are brains stuck in jars being controlled by aliens, there is no way we could prove or disprove it. There is also no way I can prove or disprove I am a computer simulation by an i382 to determine the largest digit of pi.

And feel free to explain why we could not prove that the experiences of the consciousness do not exist if the conciousness can be proven to exist.

I'm not saying I believe it and it's real. It's just little wondering thoughts. I didn't realize how much imagination people lacked these days.

Yes, time is real. We can measure it  and have measured it to 0.00000000000000001 seconds or something ridiculous now. It may "only" be an emergent phenomenon of a deeper underlying principle, but then again, so are you and I. I am very distinct from the world around me, as is the force of gravity from the force of electromagnetism.

As for whether we invented time? You are just getting into one of an infinite number of impossible to test hypothesis again. Why should you believe humans invented time, when it could have been god, chimpanzees, bugeyed aliens, or Deep Blue?

I'm not getting into anything. You are really reading way too much into what I said.

But are you familiar with the wave particle duality? An experiment involving quantum physics and it is one of the most oddest phenomenons known to mankind. It makes some scientist wonder if the universe itself has a consciousness. That it feels like there is a mind watching everything.
The fact is that in the quantum world, the rules change and it's if somehow they know they are being watched or experimented with and behave differently if the camera is on or off. Sometimes things are nothing until you say they are something and then become that thing.
The wave particle duality of energy shows that particles in our macrocosm can act as both a single individual particle, and together as a wave at the same time and at different times producing a function as if time did not apply and these particles somehow know the future and distribute accordingly. These experiments show just how weird, yet incredible, the quantum world, and the cosmos as a whole really is.

So that reference to my "got the rules wrong" thing.

That does not really change anything. I am still here experiencing anger, sadness, humiliation, joy, elation, etc. Well, I suppose it means whoever is thinking us is not kind.

How did I word this? Oh yeah. "What if...." What if. I never said that it changes anything. And no, I wasn't implying.

Which makes believing in them irrational. 

Irrational? Maybe. But fun to think about? In my opinion, yes.
I'm not saying to believe in anything I just said. Sometimes it's good and mind blowing to open your perception and just think. About anything.

And what does it matter if someone believes something that you may view as irrational? It's their mind. (Unless our brains are another entity altogether, but we're not gonna get into that.) Point is, who cares? Does what another person believes in personally effects you?

Actually, much of what you wrote is untestable in principle. And to be picky, you are not talking about theory, but hypothesis, most of it philosophical rather than scientific in principle.

My dear. Everything is scientific. It's just a matter of perspective.

Modifié par Jarl Johnnie Walker, 03 décembre 2013 - 04:04 .

[Ninja Stan]

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

The Bermuda and the Dragons triangle that has yet to be explained. Its obviously something happening within the Earth...then why cant we humans explain whats going on?

They have been explained. To sum up, the Bermuda Triangle was simply made up by a dude, and those who believed it took every report of a "mysterious" disappearance or wreck and attributed it to the "mystery." The area of the Bermuda Triangle is well traveled and notoriously stormy, so you've got a) a higher number of wrecks even if the percentage of ships wrecked remains the same as in any other part of the world, and storms affecting more ships.

The 7 wonders of the world...why are they still wonders? hieroglyphics scientists or people whatever they still dont understand them.

Not all of the ancient wonders have evidence remaining of their existence, if indeed they ever existed. The seven wonders of the ancient world were written about and depicted in art, but we only have evidence for some of them. The Pyramids are easily seen now, but the Hanging Gardens of Babylon remains elusive. The world is a big place, not just in breadth and length, but in depth. They may be found in the future, or they may be entirely made up. But even if they are mythical, they make for a great story and scientists can still ask why and how, if they existed, were they built.

When you watch the history channel or national geographics and etc its always speculation on different topics of Earth in-which people dont understand. Lost cities? How did they get lost? Why did they get lost? Scientists obviously acknowledge this concept.

Yes. Scientists and experts speculate when they don't know something. Science is always willing to revise itself when new data are analyzed and concluded to be "correct" (or "correct insofar as we know right now").

The same thing happens on BSN when BioWare announces a new game. People speculate on what it's about, what the characters are, who the LI are, what the gameplay will be like, what platform it's on, etc. Each time BioWare releases a bit of information, that changes people's expectations about the game. Oh, it's on next-gen so I think the game will be like this; oh, we play an Inquisitor, so I think the game will be set here; oh, Mike Laidlaw said X so now I love the game even more; etc. And with each new bit of information released by BioWare, each new video, each new demo, each new interview, players' idea of the game keeps changing until playable demos come and players see just how similar their image of the game is to the actual game. Even then, their view can change once the game is released to retail. In this way, scientists and scholars continue refining their view of unknown things until they are proven "right," "wrong" or something in between.

EDIT: Please don't think I'm criticizing or dismissing your view out of hand. I love a good unsolved mystery and enjoy ghost stories, cryptids, and weird world stories. I just also love how marvelous some of these scientific explanations can be.

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 03 décembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[TEWR]

Yes, I do.

[metatheurgist]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the mystery is about the 7 wonders. They were just 7 things ancient people thought were awesome. So they called them the 7 wonders. I could name 7 things today and call them wonders (actually I'd be too late 'cause it's already been done), that doesn't make them a mystery.

And Heiroglyphs are just written language, no mystery there - there are people that read them. It's like saying chinese is a mystery.

Again I don't see what's so strange about lost cities. Earthquakes, diseases, volcanoes happen. Sometimes they wipe out whole civilisations. Ancient civilisations tended to be isolated, people didn't keep records like we do today. If a city got wiped and no one wrote about it or it was recorded by one guy on a clay tablet and the tablet got smashed, why is that a mystery? If humanity wiped itself out by nuking everything tomorrow no one would know we ever existed.

Modifié par metatheurgist, 03 décembre 2013 - 09:08 .

[TEWR]

To go in a bit more depth (though really just stating the obvious) I do believe that there are an infinite amount of universes out there, each with different things true for them. For instance, one might have different physics while another has different creatures, yet they're still reality and we exist in them in some form.

They might exist in another dimension/plane altogether, or perhaps space has a means for us to get there. I dunno. But I do believe in their existence.

There's so much we don't know about the universe and reality, and it's why I'm an ardent supporter of getting us off of this rock and exploring the cosmos immediately -- first with starting up a moonbase.

GoodyProctor wrote...

If God wills it, yes, there can be other realms within this universe.

http://t1.gstatic.co...O-nKDIDrlLHJrlw

[Jozape]

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

I meant the many wonders of the world...the many theories such as lochness monsters, lost cities, bermuda and dragons triangle, pyramids, the 7 wonders of the world, hieroglyphics, the ocean is a world within itself, prophecies, people who experience being thrown out of bed and other paranormal things; those are the things that happen(ed)(s) on Earth that people cant quite comprehend. We dont even understand our own Earth. Alot of science is just theory.

Just theory is an empirically supported explanation of the world. I understand what you mean though, and I am not sure why you hold this belief.

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

The Bermuda and the Dragons triangle that has yet to be explained. Its obviously something happening within the Earth...then why cant we humans explain whats going on? The 7 wonders of the world...why are they still wonders? hieroglyphics scientists or people whatever they still dont understand them. When you watch the history channel or national geographics and etc its always speculation on different topics of Earth in-which people dont understand. Lost cities? How did they get lost? Why did they get lost? Scientists obviously acknowledge this concept.

That we do not understand what is happening at the triangles, if anything is happening(I am not very familiar with the statistics between them), does not mean that we will not solve the mystery if any exists. It could very well have to do with something inside the earth; for example, the earth's magnetic field could interrupt with the instruments in these "triangles"(a triangle is a very basic shape and very easy to draw out of a group of objects by the way), or certain chemical reactions could be taking place in the ocean which cause boats to sink.

The seven wonders are still wonders because people consider them wonders. Honestly, I do not consider some of them to be particularly wonderous; though, they were probably very impressive for their time.

We actually can understand quite a few ancient hieroglyphics. With some context, linguists can figure these things out, but some hieroglyphics are more difficult than others. That does not mean linguists will not figure them out. After all, we did find out how to read several other hieroglyphics.

The History channel should really be called the conspiracy theory channel. The standard answer for every mystery on that channel involves aliens, space ****s, or the end of the world. The National Geographic programs are usually quality programs though. What did you watch that was off its rockers?

[Jozape]

Suprez30 wrote...

Has I see it .. Let's assume we're only able to see in white. Color would not exist. How could we know color existed if we could only see in complete white ? So let's assume we have more developped sense and that we're much more intelligent creature. We could be aware of thing that do not exist for us right now.

The problem with this analogy is that we can develop impartial instruments for sensing and measuring things which we could never sense or deduce by ourselves. If we could only see white and black, we would still be able to figure out that light comes in different wavelengths by measuring them.

[Jozape]

Jarl Johnnie Walker wrote...

But are you familiar with the wave particle duality? An experiment involving quantum physics and it is one of the most oddest phenomenons known to mankind. It makes some scientist wonder if the universe itself has a consciousness. That it feels like there is a mind watching everything.
The fact is that in the quantum world, the rules change and it's if somehow they know they are being watched or experimented with and behave differently if the camera is on or off. Sometimes things are nothing until you say they are something and then become that thing.
The wave particle duality of energy shows that particles in our macrocosm can act as both a single individual particle, and together as a wave at the same time and at different times producing a function as if time did not apply and these particles somehow know the future and distribute accordingly. These experiments show just how weird, yet incredible, the quantum world, and the cosmos as a whole really is.

So that reference to my "got the rules wrong" thing.

You seem to have gotten the wrong impression of quantum mechanics and the wave collapse function.

The way the world functions at the quantum scale is indeed quite different from the way we experience reality. However, the waves do not collapse because they are being observed. They collapse regardless of whethey they are being observed. It is the interaction with another quantum system which causes them to be in a state and act as a particle.

But yes, quantum mechanics is still a bizarre and interesting set of phenomenon; IMO, particularly entanglement.

How did I word this? Oh yeah. "What if...." What if. I never said that it changes anything. And no, I wasn't implying.

I was merely answering the what if from my perspective, and I certainly did not imply that you were implying. I apologize if I offended you.

Irrational? Maybe. But fun to think about? In my opinion, yes. 
I'm not saying to believe in anything I just said. Sometimes it's good and mind blowing to open your perception and just think. About anything.

And what does it matter if someone believes something that you may view as irrational? It's their mind. (Unless our brains are another entity altogether, but we're not gonna get into that.) Point is, who cares? Does what another person believes in personally effects you?

It absolutely does. A persons beliefs is a reflection of their respect for or ability in logic and reason, and shapes their actions.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Most of what The Ethereal Writer Redux said.

And who sez that 7 wonders are unreal or just awesome? Here is some of their pictures!







Ah.. search the others.

[Br3admax]

We don't even know about a lot of our own planet yet. Baby steps, I say.

[mybudgee]

I'm Mybudgee & this is my favorite thread on the Citadel

[Sigma Tauri]

I'd say keep an open mind. But, scientists are held accountable for their theories, which kinda differs from anyone else from making assertions about other realities. You know what's a great way to augment your belief? Smarten up and read what comsologists say. They'll blow your mind to nerdgasm.

Jozape wrote...

How do we do this? We use the scientific method. Basically:

• Make an observation.
• Make a guess, also known as a hypothesis, to explain what was observed, based on what is already known.
• Make another observation while testing the hypothesis.
• Draw a conclusion based on the observation in step 3. If the hypothesis does not agree with observation, go back to step 2.

Lol, more like if the experiment fails to disprove the hypothesis's assertion, we are forced to accept it even if there's a small, but arbitrarily defined chance that it could still be wrong. Conversely, if the experiment disproves the hypothesis's assertion, we are forced to reject it even if there's a small, but arbitrarily defined chance that it could still be right.

Suprez30 wrote...
Has I see it .. Let's assume we're only
able to see in white. Color would not exist. How could we know color
existed if we could only see in complete white ? So let's assume we have
more developped sense and that we're much more intelligent creature. We
could be aware of thing that do not exist for us right now.

I've never seen an okapi, but I won't declare that it doesn't exist because it existing can be validated. If I've never seen color, color as a cultural construct wouldn't exist. But, color as measurable wavelengths can be validated. That's like saying UV doesn't exist because we can't see it.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 03 décembre 2013 - 09:16 .