402 réponses à ce sujet

[Barbarossa2010]

Well, one thing I like about Beth games, which has gone unmentioned thus far, is the alchemic, enchanting, crafting, reloading, repair, and survival mechanisms they have, and how well they're integrated into the game itself.

While FO3 had anemic systems (but in full disclosure I still loved the game), FONV and Skyrim ramped these up dramatically, to the point, I probably spend more time doing (and enjoying) these than exploring...which as it is, go hand-in-hand quite well together. Truly, these are games themselves within the main game.

So, that's my answer to popularity.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[happy_daiz]

^ Oh yeah, crafting that is actually...crafting? It's a good point.

Honestly, I hope that Skyrim shows us the direction Bethesda is planning to take on future games. Not to say I'd want them to copy that exact system, but each of their games has been a progression in quality from game to game. Time and better technology should help us see an improvement with each iteration.

[Br3admax]

I had a Skyrim waifu once. I sacrificed her to Boethiah.

Any game with a marriage system, I usually use the spouse as the sacrifice for the inevitable cult, if only in repentance for how shallow they turn out to be.

[Mr.House]

NV crafting is more enjoyable. Nothing beats making a bunch of boxed lunches.

[happy_daiz]

^ Anything with Salient Green, yo!

And yes, the crafting in NV is fun. I'm right in the middle of a NV run myself, and I totally agree.

I would assume that Bethesda would/will take that into account in future games. I'm sure they noticed player enjoyment levels involved in crafting in NV, (being the publisher and all), and will use that to their advantage. It would be pretty negligent not to.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:41 .

[Mr.House]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Anything with Salient Green, yo!

And yes, the crafting in NV is fun. I'm right in the middle of a NV run myself, and I totally agree.

I would assume that Bethesda would/will take that into account in future games. I'm sure they noticed player enjoyment levels involved in crafting in NV, (being the publisher and all), and will use that to their advantage. It would be pretty negligent not to.

What's funny is the crafting in Nv was ouright stated to be inspired by the top quality crafting mods that where made for FO3.

[happy_daiz]

^ That's the thing, I think. Game developers seem to be quite aware of what works for other games, and if they're smart, will use it to their advantage.

The beauty of that whole scenario you mentioned, is that Bethesda's software allowed mods in the first place, which allowed people to improve it, which influenced Obsidian, which in turn made it awesome in New Vegas. It was a collaborative effort that came full circle.

Some...other developers that shall remain unnamed...should take notice of this.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[Br3admax]

And just like that Nvidia fails me again. I'm going to try again to make those gecko steaks.

Modifié par Br3ad, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[Addai]

Br3ad wrote...

I had a Skyrim waifu once. I sacrificed her to Boethiah.

Any game with a marriage system, I usually use the spouse as the sacrifice for the inevitable cult, if only in repentance for how shallow they turn out to be.

You guys need to embrace your inner fanfiction writer.

[Fast Jimmy]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Oh yeah, crafting that is actually...crafting? It's a good point.

Honestly, I hope that Skyrim shows us the direction Bethesda is planning to take on future games. Not to say I'd want them to copy that exact system, but each of their games has been a progression in quality from game to game. Time and better technology should help us see an improvement with each iteration.

My problem with crafting in general is that it only serves to do one thing - give better weapons/armor/potions/etc. That's not just Bethesda (or Bioware) games, but practically every game that uses the concept. It's all just a gateway to gear. The thing is that in order to buy the neccessary crafting equipment, to achieve the requisite skill points to invest, to explore enough areas to get the rare ingredients usually involved... it almost always requires the player to be of such a level as to make boosting stats even further unneccessary.

I'd like it if crafting was a means to a more satisfying end, rather than  a stat boost or cosmetic skin change that winds up being hollow upon completion. 

[happy_daiz]

^ How do you mean? Crafting to...save the world? What is there, if not a stat boost or skin change? I'm not following.

What is the 'satisfying' end you're referring to?

(And OMG, I just realized how that came out).

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:12 .

[Fast Jimmy]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ How do you mean? Crafting to...save the world? What is there, if not a stat boost or skin change? I'm not following.

What is the 'satisfying' end you're referring to?

(And OMG, I just realized how that came out).

I don't know... maybe crafting to imrpove a city? Use smithing skills to build a water distribution system. Or enchantinf to detect and help root out/prevent crime. 

The Quest for Glory ganes had a character Erana who used her magic to do a lot of good, useful things in the places she visited outside of the standard "kill all the enemies" or "build the ultimate sword of epic stabbing."

There's story/setting uses for skills other than either killing thjngs or making things to help kill things, I guess. 

[Splinter Cell 108]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I don't know... maybe crafting to imrpove a city? Use smithing skills to build a water distribution system. Or enchantinf to detect and help root out/prevent crime. 

The Quest for Glory ganes had a character Erana who used her magic to do a lot of good, useful things in the places she visited outside of the standard "kill all the enemies" or "build the ultimate sword of epic stabbing."

There's story/setting uses for skills other than either killing thjngs or making things to help kill things, I guess. 

I'd bet if they had all the time and money in the world they would do things like this, unfortunately that isn't the case. A game like Skyrim encompasses so many things that it is impossible to make every corner of the game as good as its main focus. There's thousands of things to do to achieve what the developers want, so much that a lot gets cut.  If I remember correctly they wanted to add seasons to Skyrim, such and such place would have snow at certain time of the year and what not. It never happened, I'd imagine it was because such a thing is so complex and time consuming that it just wasn't viable. I don't know about BioWare but Bethesda has a lot to take into consideration with the size of their games. From what I've heard about weather systems for Bethesda games and from the mod authors who get involved in such things, it is very complex, some of those people took over 200 hours making those mods.

I don't know about crafting but compared to Skyrim as a whole, I'm going to say that it wasn't a big concern, and I doubt it will ever be in those games, unless they put it in their mind to make an ES game with crafting as an essential. In the end crafting did get somewhere to what you describe with Hearthfire, they did allow you to use smithing to make your materials, extremely limited I know but at least is there, meaning that maybe they do consider it as an option. 

They had a lot of creative things they wanted to do with Skyrim and very few made it among those were Vampire Lords and vampires in general and some other stuff but a lot of it never made it. 

[Br3admax]

Addai67 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I had a Skyrim waifu once. I sacrificed her to Boethiah.

Any game with a marriage system, I usually use the spouse as the sacrifice for the inevitable cult, if only in repentance for how shallow they turn out to be.

You guys need to embrace your inner fanfiction writer.

My inner fanfiction writer craves for blood. 

[happy_daiz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't know... maybe crafting to imrpove a city? Use smithing skills to build a water distribution system. Or enchantinf to detect and help root out/prevent crime. 

I could argue that by using diplomacy or brute force, I'm also improving a city/cities. Or making them worse.

By killing bandits, I'm rooting out and preventing crime.

I can probably pay someone to build a water distribution system.

I dunno, to me, those sound more like traits of a sim game, which Bethesda games typically are not.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:53 .

[Fast Jimmy]

happy_daiz wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't know... maybe crafting to imrpove a city? Use smithing skills to build a water distribution system. Or enchantinf to detect and help root out/prevent crime. 

I could argue that by using diplomacy or brute force, I'm also improving a city/cities. Or making them worse.

By killing bandits, I'm rooting out and preventing crime.

I can probably pay someone to build a water distribution system.

I dunno, to me, those sound more like traits of a sim game, which Bethesda games typically are not.

Yeah, I guess it goes back to my mindset that the idea of a game where every problem is solved by turning the player into a large scale mass murderer has worn me out now. Decades of playing games, and decades of games before me, have based this entire concept as their premise. Sure, there are brief respites like simulation games or the adventure game series of yesteryear, but by and large, you are slaughtering creatures, people and assorted pixel entities by the millions as a gamer. Maybe the billions.

New Vegas has one of the possibility of playing a "diplomatic" character, but it is one of the hardest routes in the game. Mostly because for you to become diplomatic enough to get your skills high enough for them to be of any use, you'd need to survive about five dozen bullets in your body. And even when you can solve problems, it's mostly because you have charmed the help of other NPCs... who are the ones who actually do the killing. That's falling a little short of being a "diplomatic character" in my mind, simply because it's being "diplomatic" only so far as "diplomatic until my big friends with even bigger guns start shooting" ...and I even think New Vegas did a pretty amazing job with non-combat skills. 

I don't know... I'm just an old fuddy-duddy I guess. I saw the rise of games that were always trying something new, that were trying to replicate the total freedom of a tabletop game. Those games were insanely ambitious (and many DEEPLY flawed because of it, mind you) and it seems somewhere along the way, a certain dominant mindset and philosphy for creating all games has taken hold instead, where we have been creating practically the same game since 2003, with different stories and shinier graphics. It seems those earlier games were on a path to creating truly amazing titles and, instead, we're just now trying to catch up to doing what those games did ten, fifteen or twenty years ago.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 05 décembre 2013 - 09:46 .

[happy_daiz]

Maybe there's some kind of happy medium in there somewhere. I mean...maybe it just comes in a different form.

For instance, in Skyrim - the voice, aka shouting. When I first heard that we'd be playing as a Dragonborn, with the ability to "shout", my brow furrowed. Shouting, to me, sounded pretty silly. As it turned out, it's freaking awesome. And effective.

For it to be worthwhile, you have to go searching for parts of it, to make a complete shout, and there are quite a few of them. To get to each word, you have to jump through some hoops, be it a dungeon, a dragon, etc. With each DLC, we got a few more options, to further hone our DBs.

Is that crafting in the traditional sense? No, not really. Is it something you have to acquire parts of, to build the whole? Yes, definitely. So wouldn't that be crafting? I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Personally, I do understand where you're coming from, by wanting more substance in your gaming. Really, I do. And I think we're starting to go in that direction. Maybe because developers themselves are getting bored of the slaughter fest, themselves.

I guess time will tell where this leads.

[Lazengan]

"edited out by Mod03"

New Vegas is a superior game to Skyrim because there is actual gameplay

You make actual choices in combat. Combat is balanced and engaging, not just spamming the same garbage over and over again. You also make a lot of choices through actions rather than selecting a dialogue

However New Vegas is extremely buggy and until you download at least 25 mods and optimize them all, you might as well call it Fall Out Crash Vegas

Modding capabilities are a bandaid fix for developpers. While I like that modding is available, Bethesda uses their community to do most of their work for them, which I disagree with. Bethesda completely copy pasted midas Magic from Oblivion and balanced Skyrim magic around that, which ended up in a complete failure. I also find it hilarious that mods can result in Skyrim always having next gen cutting graphics. The game's community will continue to thrive since we do the work for them. While I'm not saying that I don't like waifu mods every week, Bethesda should contribute and attempt to fix bugs themselves, not let the players handle that

Modifié par BioWareMod03, 06 décembre 2013 - 06:34 .

[Heimdall]

Hmm, admittedly Skyrim was my first Bethesda game, my first open world game and really one of the first RPGs I played not produced by Bioware (Or Obsidian).

But I definitely felt there was choice in the gameplay...

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 décembre 2013 - 04:53 .

[AventuroLegendary]

Addai67 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I had a Skyrim waifu once. I sacrificed her to Boethiah.

Any game with a marriage system, I usually use the spouse as the sacrifice for the inevitable cult, if only in repentance for how shallow they turn out to be.

You guys need to embrace your inner fanfiction writer.

Or my inner fanfiction reader. It's how I deal with Skyrim's and Fire Emblem: Awakening's shallow characterization.

Lazengan wrote...

Modding capabilities are a bandaid fix for developpers.

I wish Workshop came before NV. Would save me the brain cells.

Modifié par LegendaryAvenger, 06 décembre 2013 - 05:00 .

[Lazengan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Hmm, admittedly Skyrim was my first Bethesda game, my first open world game and really one of the first RPGs I played not produced by Bioware (Or Obsidian).

But I definitely felt there was choice in the gameplay...

There really isn't

Combat is selecting the highest dps spell or weapon and use it over and over again at something until it dies. There is no choice to use anything else. You spam potions because there is no cooldown. 

A good game makes you think and make different choices. 

[Cyonan]

Lazengan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Hmm, admittedly Skyrim was my first Bethesda game, my first open world game and really one of the first RPGs I played not produced by Bioware (Or Obsidian).

But I definitely felt there was choice in the gameplay...

There really isn't

Combat is selecting the highest dps spell or weapon and use it over and over again at something until it dies. There is no choice to use anything else. You spam potions because there is no cooldown. 

A good game makes you think and make different choices. 

There is a choice, you just choose to be a min/maxer.

That's not the only valid way of playing Skyrim however.

Actually, the idea that it is the only valid way is downright laughable. Skyrim is a very easy game that by no means requires optimal play.

[Lazengan]

Cyonan wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Hmm, admittedly Skyrim was my first Bethesda game, my first open world game and really one of the first RPGs I played not produced by Bioware (Or Obsidian).

But I definitely felt there was choice in the gameplay...

There really isn't

Combat is selecting the highest dps spell or weapon and use it over and over again at something until it dies. There is no choice to use anything else. You spam potions because there is no cooldown. 

A good game makes you think and make different choices. 

There is a choice, you just choose to be a min/maxer.

That's not the only valid way of playing Skyrim however.

Actually, the idea that it is the only valid way is downright laughable. Skyrim is a very easy game that by no means requires optimal play.

Well the point of a good game is to allow so many ambigious desicions that you cannot optimize one way of playing. 

If you cannot optimize mathematically, this is a good game because its open ended and allows for choices, and ensures a different experience each playtrhough

However with Skyrim there is really no reason to choose another spell over another. The Vanilla spells are literally, do X amounts of Y damage. There is no reason to use anything else. Perhaps if there were some utility spells.  Whacking things in melee combat is also the same thing over and over again

Archery has potential, To begin with, shooting takes presicion, and you can kite by running or even using terrain creatively. Perhaps if you could lay traps and use a slow spell to kite, this is a perfect example of good, open ended, organic, and ambigious desicion making

When Bioware said that they would model off Skyrim, I at first had concerns. But Then I remembered Dragon Age 2 combat, and Bioware indeed understands the need to make desicions. Many spells in Dragon Age 2 were different, and not just "do X damage" but a lot of utility, and every spell was very unique.

In Skyrim there is no real difference between a fireball and an iceball. It just does damage.

Modifié par Lazengan, 06 décembre 2013 - 06:54 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Lazengan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Hmm, admittedly Skyrim was my first Bethesda game, my first open world game and really one of the first RPGs I played not produced by Bioware (Or Obsidian).

But I definitely felt there was choice in the gameplay...

There really isn't

Combat is selecting the highest dps spell or weapon and use it over and over again at something until it dies. There is no choice to use anything else. You spam potions because there is no cooldown. 

A good game makes you think and make different choices. 

I think that's an odd thing to say about Skyrim. If you had said it was broad but shallow, I would possibly agree, but its broadness cannot be denied in my opinion.

Personally, I choose the weapon that I'm in the mood for, that is the most fun, or the most suited to my char, or even just looks the coolest as I'm going through my inventory/chests, or allows the best/most satisfying "moves", or is hardest for this enemy/area and will extend my gameplay or feel like I did something difficult, or is the most powerful for this enemy/area, or which I feel matches my armour the best, or which seems suitable to kill that evil enemy  or which will let the peasants know just who it was who saved them (eg: Dawnbreaker, Anduril or Excalibur), or which I need practice on, or which reminds my char of Lydia because it is coming up to the anniversary of her tragic disappearance in the mountains.

The reasons why I/my char might choose a given weapon on a given day, are myriad.

There's a lot of choice in Skyrim gameplay, and very little rail-roading, which is why this immense game, 2 years after release, is still something people can fire up and find a bit of gameplay that suits whatever random mood they are in.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 décembre 2013 - 10:03 .