876 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...
I can see how dark energy could have been made into a steaming pile. I can also see how it could have been made interesting and, dare I say it, cool. It could have gone either way.

I can say the same about the endings we have now. It's not what you say but how you say it, after all. The Leviathan backstory is - for my money - cooler and more philosophically rich than the dark energy backstory, which makes even less sense than the Catalyst.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 décembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I don't find the Dark Energy subplot compelling in the least.


So eezo is going to overheat the universe and wipe us out one day? Ooh, mmm... ... interesting.

[Sion1138]

CronoDragoon wrote...

durasteel wrote...
I can see how dark energy could have been made into a steaming pile. I can also see how it could have been made interesting and, dare I say it, cool. It could have gone either way.

I can say the same about the endings we have now. It's not what you say but how you say it, after all. The Leviathan backstory is - for my money - cooler and more philosophically rich than the dark energy backstory, which makes even less sense than the Catalyst.

It makes sense if you accept the premise.

It's pretty much the same thing as what was used, technology leading inexorably to extinction.

I like the flavor of dark energy better, because it's less convoluted. The AI version introduced a rather ridiculous positive feedback loop.

Modifié par Sion1138, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[CronoDragoon]

Sion1138 wrote...
It makes sense if you accept the premise.

It...does?

[Deathsaurer]

Sion1138 wrote...

I like the flavor of dark energy better, because it's less convoluted.

Flooding the galaxy with dark energy factories so everyone would learn to make dark energy producing tech so you could stop them from destroying the galaxy with dark energy is less convoluted how?

[Sion1138]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...
It makes sense if you accept the premise.

It...does?

What's the problem?

Suppose the use of a certain fuel causes irreparable damage to the environment.

Modifié par Sion1138, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:52 .

[CronoDragoon]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Flooding the galaxy with dark energy factories so everyone would learn to make dark energy producing tech so you could stop them from destroying the galaxy with dark energy is less convoluted how?

This is more what I was getting at, though Dean_the_Young did lay out a possible scenario for this making sense. Which was not the scenario outlined.

[KaiserShep]

Sion1138 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

durasteel wrote...
I can see how dark energy could have been made into a steaming pile. I can also see how it could have been made interesting and, dare I say it, cool. It could have gone either way.

I can say the same about the endings we have now. It's not what you say but how you say it, after all. The Leviathan backstory is - for my money - cooler and more philosophically rich than the dark energy backstory, which makes even less sense than the Catalyst.

It makes sense if you accept the premise.

It's pretty much the same thing as what was used, technology leading inexorably to extinction.

I like the flavor of dark energy better, because it's less convoluted. The AI version introduced a rather ridiculous positive feedback loop.

Anything can make sense if you accept the premise, because you can fill in the holes or cherry-pick the things you like and ignore the things you don't for it to work.

As for whether or not it's less convoluted, this is not really something we can determine outright, because it's just a concept that never really had any follow-through. Basically, it's less convoluted only because it's just an idea, and not a real plot that gets to be resolved. This still has some nagging contradictions that would need to be reconciled, likely necessitating the use of tons of handwavium. The mass relays would have to somehow be exempt from the entropic effect the manipulation of dark energy has on the galaxy, as would just about every other device that emits a mass effect field, which is just about everything. Even Traynor's toothbrush uses eezo. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[Sion1138]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

I like the flavor of dark energy better, because it's less convoluted.

Flooding the galaxy with dark energy factories so everyone would learn to make dark energy producing tech so you could stop them from destroying the galaxy with dark energy is less convoluted how?

It has one level, the AI version goes way beyond. 

Modifié par Sion1138, 11 décembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Sion1138]

KaiserShep wrote...

Anything can make sense if you accept the premise, because you can fill in the holes or cherry-pick the things you like and ignore the things you don't for it to work.

As for whether or not it's less convoluted, this is not really something we can determine outright, because it's just a concept that never really had any follow-through. Basically, it's less convoluted only because it's just an idea, and not a real plot that gets to be resolved. This still has some nagging contradictions that would need to be reconciled, likely necessitating the use of tons of handwavium. The mass relays would have to somehow be exempt from the entropic effect the manipulation of dark energy has on the galaxy, as would just about every other device that emits a mass effect field, which is just about everything. Even Traynor's toothbrush uses eezo. 

You could say that the relays are a way for the Reapers to regulate the timescale of galactic civilization to a precise fifty thousand years.

Without them the cycle would be irratic.

Not the best explanation but arrived at with little thought.

[KaiserShep]

Problem is that the relays still birth a whole swath of eezo-reliant tech, not to mention that this mass transit system allows more species to discover the element, and ultimately exploit its properties to implement biotics. Without the relays, there would be no mass effect fields, and far far fewer biotics. It's possible even that only the asari would be the solidly biotic-capable species for most of this cycle.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Deathsaurer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This is more what I was getting at, though Dean_the_Young did lay out a possible scenario for this making sense. Which was not the scenario outlined.

You can make them both work just fine with some tweaking. I just don't see how it's automatically better. Both ideas need some work.

[eyezonlyii]

KaiserShep wrote...

Problem is that the relays still birth a whole swath of eezo-reliant tech, not to mention that this mass transit system allows more species to discover the element, and ultimately exploit its properties to implement biotics. Without the relays, there would be no mass effect fields, and far far fewer biotics. It's possible even that only the asari would be the solidly biotic-capable species for most of this cycle.

i don't see how there are sufficient numbers of othe species' biotics anyway. 

[Sion1138]

Deathsaurer wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

This is more what I was getting at, though Dean_the_Young did lay out a possible scenario for this making sense. Which was not the scenario outlined.

You can make them both work just fine with some tweaking. I just don't see how it's automatically better. Both ideas need some work.

Well, that's the gist of it there. I don't think it would have been much better, but I also don't see how it could have been worse. 

Anyway, I would have preferred a different approach entirely.

My idea was that the harvest was just that, a harvest. In that the Reapers were a race that had advanced so far that they could find no way to progress further and hence established the cycle as a kind of knowledge or experience farming scheme in search of something undefined.

Modifié par Sion1138, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[KaiserShep]

eyezonlyii wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Problem is that the relays still birth a whole swath of eezo-reliant tech, not to mention that this mass transit system allows more species to discover the element, and ultimately exploit its properties to implement biotics. Without the relays, there would be no mass effect fields, and far far fewer biotics. It's possible even that only the asari would be the solidly biotic-capable species for most of this cycle.

i don't see how there are sufficient numbers of othe species' biotics anyway. 

Fair enough, but there's plenty of tech that spawns from studying the relays that also manipulate dark energy. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Dark Energy could work with some adjustments (maybe). Like maybe the relays have the Dark Energy Star brand, and are built to keep all the races in one place and insure that the races' technologies are kept predictable.

I just find the current ending so disagreeable that I like to cling to the hope that the Dark Energy ending would have been better. That hope is probably would what keeps in afloat in my mind.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 11 décembre 2013 - 03:43 .

[durasteel]

Dark energy works fine if you change the purpose of the Reapers. Instead of searching for a solution that averts the impending doom, they melt species into Reapers as their answer. The idea would be that Reapers would be able to continue on past the "death" of the galaxy, perhaps even moving on to another galaxy to make even more Reapers. Using the relay network might accelerate the galaxy's demise, but it is efficient and the demise is inevitable anyway. Makes perfect sense to a god-machine.

The problem in any version of an ending comes with trying to reason with the Reapers, with them caring what Shepard's opinion about anything is, with the very idea of resolving the threat to humanity's survival through conversation with the Reapers in any form. To expose their vulnerability and enable the combined might of the galaxy to--barely--defeat them... that's awesome. To have their representative try to explain their position to Shepard is just lame.

Modifié par durasteel, 11 décembre 2013 - 04:01 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

I feel the problem was them going for something deep and meaningful, even if they had to shoehorn it in. Personally, I would have been happy with the unity-triumphs-all flavor of a conventional victory, which is where I always saw the ultimate ending heading towards since ME1 and the conversation with Vigil. And I think a lot of players would have been happy with that too.

[durasteel]

SR72 wrote...

Bottom line, ending a trilogy like this is hard, and no matter what ending they wrote, people would complain regardless. 

It might be hard, relatively speaking, but it is completely untrue that people would complain regardless. I can come up with an ending off the top of my head that I'm pretty sure everyone would have, at the very least, tolerated.

[Armass81]

durasteel wrote...

SR72 wrote...

Bottom line, ending a trilogy like this is hard, and no matter what ending they wrote, people would complain regardless. 

It might be hard, relatively speaking, but it is completely untrue that people would complain regardless. I can come up with an ending off the top of my head that I'm pretty sure everyone would have, at the very least, tolerated.

Really?

Lets hear it then.

[durasteel]

Well… you asked for it.

I’ll try to stay as close as possible to the structure of the game as-is.

Priority: Horizon
Shepard recovers data from the Sanctuary base that provides new information on Reaper indoctrination. When that information is analyzed by the Alliance, it finally gives Hackett’s guys the key to understanding the crucible’s function: it generates massive feedback on the indoctrination carrier wave that will cripple the Reapers, much like the feedback from Saren’s death crippled Sovereign.

We also learn why the crucible has never worked before: it requires a component—the Catalyst—that is almost impossible to obtain. The Catalyst is the master control module for all Reaper indoctrination, and it is part of Harbinger’s brain.

Priority: Cerberus Headquarters
As part of Cerberus’ experiments into indoctrination, The Illusive Man developed a prototype system that resists indoctrination. It consists of three parts: Mordin’s nanite protection that allowed the crew to fight the Collectors in ME2; a mental countermeasure developed from research into Prothean beacons; and a sonic countermeasure developed from data from the derelict Reaper you got the IFF from.

Priority: Harbinger (New)
The mission is to obtain the Catalyst. Studies of dead Reapers lead to the conclusion that the primary defense against breaching a Reaper and damaging it from the inside is indoctrination, so using the prototype system from Cerberus offers a chance—however slim—of success.

Analysis of Harbinger’s seeming fascination with Shepard leads to a plan to lure it away from the main body of the Reaper fleet by leaking info that Shepard would be personally investigating a major data cache discovered in the ruins on Feros. Shiala agrees to construct and activate a device that will broadcast a signal mimicking Prothean tech to support the ruse.

The Normandy remains on-station near Feros in full-on stealth mode, waiting for Harbinger to take the bait, Shepard and crew interact before this seemingly impossible mission.

When Harbinger arrives, Joker dodges oculi and Reaper beams to get in close, then Shepard and squad deploy in the M-44 Hammerhead hover tank. Skimming the surface of the massive Harbinger, Shepard fights more oculi in the tank making for a joint in the superstructure where it is possible to get inside.

Inside Harbinger, the tank is damaged and/or the passageways become constricted such that the squad has to continue on foot, fighting through waves of husks and other Reaper forces. A new enemy is introduced resembling a husk version of a Citadel keeper, just to keep things fresh.

While the squad is inside Harbinger, it lectures Shepard on the foolishness of resistance, because only by becoming a Reaper can the human race survive the inevitable dark energy death of the galaxy.

Shepard finally reaches the core and identifies the Catalyst. One team member must be defended through waves of attacks while he or she disconnects the module. The squad then straps a bomb to Harbinger’s core and makes for an exit. Once they reach the surface of Harbinger again, a Reaper Destroyer arrives to support Harbinger. As Shepard triggers to bomb he left inside and disables Harbinger, several Alliance ships arrive to support the Normandy.

If Shepard saved the Destiny Ascension, it kills the Destroyer with a shot from its main gun. If not, several smaller ships fire on it and the Destroyer is killed, but not before it gets off a final shot that kills one of Shepard’s squad.

Cortez picks up the survivors and the Alliance ships, including Normandy, blast Harbinger into dust.

Priority: Earth
With the loss of their oldest and most powerful capital ship, the Reapers take on a more defensive posture and bring the Citadel to the Sol system, planning to turtle around Earth until the humans have been neutralized. With the Catalyst installed in the Crucible, only one step remains: the Crucible needs to connect to the Citadel to use its transmitter to broadcast the indoctrination control feedback signal throughout the relay network. To connect to the Citadel, the arms have to be opened from the inside.

At the fleet rendezvous, Shepard has a final communication with his allies before the last mission. The Normandy will be joining the attack with the rest of the fleet, but Shepard will be taking a squad through the Conduit on Ilos to prepare the Citadel for the Crucible. Based on reasons, Cortez can die in this mission.

Once through the Conduit, Shepard heads towards Citadel control with his squad. The enemies they fight are indoctrinated Cerberus troops as well as Reaper troops. Choices you made regarding Citadel defenses matter, making this part easier or more difficult, depending. Near control, Shepard encounters The Illusive Man, who has captured David Anderson and is holding him hostage to force Shepard to listen to his proposal.

TIM has been monitoring Alliance communications and knows all about the Crucible. He insists that it can be modified to allow control over the Reapers—reverse indoctrination instead of just crippling feedback. Anderson argues. Shepard can choose. Side with Anderson, and fight TIM, or side with TIM which means you have to kill Anderson. If you fight TIM, you get to fight a pair of new indoctrinated Cerberus enemies, which are a cross between Phantom and Banshee. They work together and it’s a hard fight. Anderson is mortally wounded, but dies telling Shepard how proud he is.

In Citadel control, Shepard opens the arms and signals the fleet. Every individual resource Shepard has gathered is shown in action, with the outcome determined by EMS. Too low, the Crucible is destroyed. High enough, Alliance fleet beats back the Reapers in time to dock the Crucible where Shepard and squad wait to hit the big red button. With a middle score, before the Crucible docks Shepard and squad are hit, Shepard is near death, and triggers the Crucible as a final act.

Final cinematic scene: the Alliance fleet either demolishes the crippled Reapers, or (if you sided with TIM) Shepard issues his ultimatum to the assembled peoples of the Galaxy, demanding they bow before their new emperor.

Wrap up with scenes of friends, rivals, and crew in various states of triumph, tragedy, celebration, lamentation, etc.

Roll credits.

Modifié par durasteel, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:07 .

[Deathsaurer]

How are they getting past Harbinger's kinetic barriers when Joker couldn't extract them from the derelict Reaper? Why does Harbinger have an opening on his hull that allows access? Why isn't he making a jump for the nearest star the moment they reach the core room? Why is a destroyer the only thing that comes to help and not a few dozen dreadnoughts?

[Sion1138]

durasteel wrote...

Well… you asked for it.

I’ll try to stay as close as possible to the structure of the game as-is.

...

Yeah, that's good.

I actually did hope myself that at some point we'd get to sabotage Harbinger by boarding it.

Modifié par Sion1138, 11 décembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[eyezonlyii]

Deathsaurer wrote...

How are they getting past Harbinger's kinetic barriers when Joker couldn't extract them from the derelict Reaper? Why does Harbinger have an opening on his hull that allows access? Why isn't he making a jump for the nearest star the moment they reach the core room? Why is a destroyer the only thing that comes to help and not a few dozen dreadnoughts?

Good questions. I like what was written, but I think a few changes would make it just a tad better. Such as:

Instead of having Cortez possibly die in Priority Earth, move that part to the Hammerhead flight scene. It would make the most sense, because he's the only one who can pilot it.

But WAIT! you say, Shepard and crew were able to pilot the hammerhead in ME2! 

I know, and buckle up for more changes. Since we are boarding Harby himself, I think a proper suicide mission is in order, but there's a catch: Shepard can't go. He is Harbinger's focus, therefore he needs to be on the Normandy to keep him distracted along with Joker's manuevers.

The rest of the squad splits into two teams: Hammerhead and Mako, and you get to choose leaders and teammates. As the mission progresses, you'll switch between the two leaders, and your choice of those two and the squad you put together, determines how many teammates return from this suicide mission. Also, the game, unlike ME2 wouldn't beat you over the head with who to put where, it would be a hidden point system, with the higher points allowing for more squaddies to make it. The rest of the game plays out as is.