876 réponses à ce sujet

[Deathsaurer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

However, the Reapers themselves are an example of the possibility of organic extinction: just because they don't want to exterminate all organics doesn't mean they don't have that capability. They do. What's funny about the Catalyst is that he is actually proving his own point even if he doesn't see it (since he doesn't see Reaper form as death).

That's one thing I don't get. The Reapers are very obviously proof of concept, machines so advanced no organic could hope to compete with them in open warfare. They could have cleansed the galaxy of organic life long ago but chose not to. To say it can't happen with such an obvious oh yes it can staring you in the face confuses me.

[JamesFaith]

durasteel wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
But Catalyst spoke only about "rebelling".

He didn't say that every synthetics would try destroy all organics.

Meaning there is no actual threat from which he is protecting organics. It's all just BS.

So by this logic any treaty about nuclear disarmement is BS? There is no actual threat which they protecting us against?

Fact - states are creating nuclear weapon and threating with their use (both passively and actively).
Fact - not every nuclear superpower seriously want to use them to anihilation of their enemies.
Fact - we only theoretically known results of their massice using based on known facts (nuclear test, Hiroshima)
Fact - politicians are taking steps so this theoretical situation never happened, even most violent ones (f.e. bombing of Osiraq in 1981)

And what Catalysts say?

1) AIs are rebelling againts their creators
2) Not every AI want to destroy their creator
3) Catalyst only theoretically know result of technological singularity and it is based by his data collected during his existence
4) Catalyst is taking steps against this theoretical situation so it would never happened, even most violent ones

No parallel here?

Modifié par JamesFaith, 13 décembre 2013 - 09:37 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
It is all BS.

Aside from the Reapers themselves, the greatest threat to organic life has been other organics

Yes, aside from the synthetics.

The two biggest threats to the galaxy were the rachni and the krogan, who fought genocidal wars against the galaxy.

The geth fought one race, more or less in self defense, and deliberately held back when they could have exterminated teh quarians.

[durasteel]

Deathsaurer wrote...
That's one thing I don't get. The Reapers are very obviously proof of concept, machines so advanced no organic could hope to compete with them in open warfare. They could have cleansed the galaxy of organic life long ago but chose not to. To say it can't happen with such an obvious oh yes it can staring you in the face confuses me.

And that makes them more dangerous than organic life... how? Organic life can wipe itself out, too.

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...

And that makes them more dangerous than organic life... how? Organic life can wipe itself out, too.

Yes it can, but that's not the purpose programmed into the Catalyst. He was never coded with priorities to prevent organic/organic conflict because this wasn't an issue in the time of the Leviathans.

[durasteel]

JamesFaith wrote...
So by this logic any treaty about nuclear disarmement is BS? There is no actual threat which they protecting us against?
...
No parallel here?

Not really, no. We know the destructive potential of nuclear weapons, and we have pretty clear evidence that our species is prone to producing sociopaths and then giving them ultimate power. Peaceful pursuit of nuclear disarmament via treaty is a no-brainer.

Nuking Iran to prevent it from possibly gaining nuclear weapons, however, has been widely dismissed as a stupid f###ing idea.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

The two biggest threats to the galaxy were the rachni and the krogan, who fought genocidal wars against the galaxy.

The geth fought one race, more or less in self defense, and deliberately held back when they could have exterminated teh quarians.

I meant the Reapers. Saying "aside from these synthetics organics are the biggest threat" is still saying synthetics have been a bigger threat in the history of the galaxy.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 13 décembre 2013 - 09:49 .

[durasteel]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Yes it can, but that's not the purpose programmed into the Catalyst. He was never coded with priorities to prevent organic/organic conflict because this wasn't an issue in the time of the Leviathans.

I'm suddenly reminded of the plot of the first Star Trek movie, the one with the bald white chick instead of Uhura.

That was not a good movie.

So, if we accept that the Catalyst was programmed with a limited purpose and has gone totally off the rails in its pursuit of that purpose, does that in any way make the ending any better?

I've kind of lost track of where we're going with this.

[JamesFaith]

durasteel wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
So by this logic any treaty about nuclear disarmement is BS? There is no actual threat which they protecting us against?
...
No parallel here?

Not really, no. We know the destructive potential of nuclear weapons, and we have pretty clear evidence that our species is prone to producing sociopaths and then giving them ultimate power. Peaceful pursuit of nuclear disarmament via treaty is a no-brainer.

Nuking Iran to prevent it from possibly gaining nuclear weapons, however, has been widely dismissed as a stupid f###ing idea.

You are speaking about us. About our knowledge and information.  About our evidence.

But do you have all evidences, informations and knowledge as Catalyst who is creator of this solution? No, you haven't, so you basically judging him only on basis of your not knowing and ignorance.

Theoretical man who only know peaceful using of nuclear energy and never hear about nuclear weapons and destruction in Nagasaki and Hiroshima would also call these treaty BS, if they were damaging him in some way, f.e. if he found himself in the middle of military operation against owner of such weapons.

[durasteel]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I meant the Reapers. Saying "aside from these synthetics organics are the biggest threat" is still saying synthetics have been a bigger threat in the history of the galaxy.

I dunno about that, I got the impression that the Leviathans were pretty bad. In fact, one of the things in the "plus" column for "control" is that The Shepard Reaper God could keep the Leviathans from getting the band back together, so to speak.

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...

I dunno about that, I got the impression that the Leviathans were pretty bad. In fact, one of the things in the "plus" column for "control" is that The Shepard Reaper God could keep the Leviathans from getting the band back together, so to speak.

Yeah the Leviathans were pretty bad. But worse than the Reapers? How long did the Leviathan era last? How many races were slaughtered in their entirety by the Leviathans? I mean, mass slavery totally sucks don't get me wrong.

durasteel wrote...
I'm suddenly reminded of the plot of the first Star Trek movie, the one with the bald white chick instead of Uhura.

That was not a good movie.

So, if we accept that the Catalyst was programmed with a limited purpose and has gone totally off the rails in its pursuit of that purpose, does that in any way make the ending any better?

I've kind of lost track of where we're going with this.

We're discussing the integrity of the Catalyst's argument. Insofar as you want to argue against the Catalyst, I think people are right to bring up just how much organic/organic "chaos" there is. It is something the Catalyst fails to address. However, that does make the ending better because it's less of a mistake or oversight on a meta-level by the writers, and instead something which makes you more deadset against the Catalyst, which you should be given that he is the villain.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:04 .

[durasteel]

JamesFaith wrote...
You are speaking about us. About our knowledge and information.  About our evidence.

But do you have all evidences, informations and knowledge as Catalyst who is creator of this solution? No, you haven't, so you basically judging him only on basis of your not knowing and ignorance.

Theoretical man who only know peaceful using of nuclear energy and never hear about nuclear weapons and destruction in Nagasaki and Hiroshima would also call these treaty BS, if they were damaging him in some way, f.e. if he found himself in the middle of military operation against owner of such weapons.

You're making me tired.

You're seriously comparing multilateral arms reduction treaties to sending an ICBM with a nuke on it towards a developing nation, with "non-proliferation!" stenciled on one side, and "Yo, Dawg..." scribbled on the other.

I can't even.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

The two biggest threats to the galaxy were the rachni and the krogan, who fought genocidal wars against the galaxy.

The geth fought one race, more or less in self defense, and deliberately held back when they could have exterminated teh quarians.

I meant the Reapers. Saying "aside from these synthetics organics are the biggest threat" is still saying synthetics have been a bigger threat in the history of the galaxy.

A synthetic race has been the greatest threat.  I'm not going to paint all synthetic life with the same brush.  One synthetic race doesn't prove that all are a threat.  That would be as foolish as judging all organic life based on the krogan.  Or the batarians.  Or the asari.

Modifié par iakus, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:12 .

[Deathsaurer]

iakus wrote...

A synthetic race has been the greatest threat.  I'm not going to paint all synthetic life with the same brush.  One synthetic race doesn't prove that all are a threat.  That would be as foolish as judging all organic life based on the krogan.  Or the batarians.  Or the asari.

While true it's observable fact that if a synthetic race does run away like that they can dictate the development of organics. Organic races, no matter how advanced they become, are still vulnerable to things like viruses and harmful genetic mutations. Said hyper advanced synthetics sit around forever doing their thing. It is a potential problem.

[Iakus]

Deathsaurer wrote...

iakus wrote...

A synthetic race has been the greatest threat.  I'm not going to paint all synthetic life with the same brush.  One synthetic race doesn't prove that all are a threat.  That would be as foolish as judging all organic life based on the krogan.  Or the batarians.  Or the asari.

While true it's observable fact that if a synthetic race does run away like that they can dictate the development of organics. Organic races, no matter how advanced they become, are still vulnerable to things like viruses and harmful genetic mutations. Said hyper advanced synthetics sit around forever doing their thing. It is a potential problem.

Synthetics have their own weaknesses.  Their programming can be corrupted or subverted.  They are capable of evolving and changing, of collecting errors (see the Heretics)  They still need physical housing for their minds, and that means they can be physically harmed.

And most of all, I am reminded of this line from The Matrix:

 I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall; men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air; yet, their strength, and their speed, are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong, or as fast, as *you* can be.

Modifié par iakus, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:32 .

[Nitrocuban]

I think BSN has discussed this 9000 times, but once again:
It would be very easy for post-singularity-synthtetics to permanently steralize the whole galaxy by simply make a couple of stars go supernova. Doesn't even have to be habitable star systems, just somewhat in range to them and the radiation is enough. Game over. Very efficient to get rid of those smelly meat bags. (Note that Rapers do not nuke planets to nuclear waste cause they want to preserve life)

Based on what the catalyst has seen synthetics trying to wipe out all organics always happens sooner or later. And how dare we question that?
Believe me, young students always think they are smarter than their teachers but they make the same mistakes as everyone before even if you tell them to watch out.
Even if our morals tell us the Catalyst is wrong he might be not, it's just something we can't comprehend emotionally.

[LinksOcarina]

Nitrocuban wrote...

I think BSN has discussed this 9000 times, but once again:

It would be very easy for post-singularity-synthtetics to permanently steralize the whole galaxy by simply make a couple of stars go supernova. Doesn't even have to be habitable star systems, just somewhat in range to them and the radiation is enough. Game over. Very efficient to get rid of those smelly meat bags. (Note that Rapers do not nuke planets to nuclear waste cause they want to preserve life)

Based on what the catalyst has seen synthetics trying to wipe out all organics always happens sooner or later. And how dare we question that?

Believe me, young students always think they are smarter than their teachers but they make the same mistakes as everyone before even if you tell them to watch out.

Even if our morals tell us the Catalyst is wrong he might be not, it's just something we can't comprehend emotionally.

Comprehension is one thing, logically seeing the point of view is another. The Catalyst could be right on a technical level alone, (and im my opinion is) but for some people that is not enough because we don't see it in the moment, if that makes sense.

It is why it's a fair interpretation of the scene, driven by emotion over logic. 

[Daemul]

My biggest fear with the announcement of the Extended Cut was that BioWare devs were going to get frustrated with the complaints about the Catalyst and were going to just say "F*** it" and add in an option to question the Catalysts motive, which would then lead to Shepard getting completely and utterly owned with the Catalyst pulling out mountains of proof to prove his point whilst Shepard stands there looking like a moron and constantly repeating, "B, b, b, but EDI... ;_;" to himself. There are already large complaints about Refuse being a middle finger, the reaction to this would have been so much worse, but it would have been glorious to behold.

I'm glad they resisted the temptation, I doubt I would have been able to.

[Deathsaurer]

iakus wrote...


Synthetics have their own weaknesses.

Most synthetics, yes.  

Their programming can be corrupted or subverted.

 
I've never seen that happen to the Reapers unless they allowed it.

They are capable of evolving and changing

But not in ways that can be harmful to them like organics can.

of collecting errors (see the Heretics)

That wasn't an error, it was simply a different way of looking at things. The virus was intended to cause an error but see above.

They still need physical housing for their minds, and that means they can be physically harmed.

2km super dreadnought vs 6 foot tall squishy organic. Rather obvious disparity here.


Now I don't think it has to happen. It will be a potential issue as long as organics remain fearful and distrustful of AI. That doesn't need to be the case but we've yet to see the galaxy break the chains that cause these conflicts to occur and as long as they do such an AI can be born.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I still see no reason to attempt to create an AI in the first place, or a fully sentient sapient robot. Why do we need to do that? What is the purpose of doing it?

And there would be conflict. It is unavoidable. They do not tire. They will do your job faster and cheaper and will work weekends and holidays. You won't. Nor will they care about the environment. They won't have that need. You will complain. You will protest. You will try to harm the synthetics for taking your jobs and putting you out on the street. So how to you get rid of the conflict problem? Simple. Kill all the organics. No more conflict.

So unless you don't value organic life, don't build synthetic life. It is that simple.

[Deathsaurer]

Well I mostly agree with you Julia. It doesn't have to be a bad thing but people will more than likely make it a bad thing.

[Iakus]

Deathsaurer wrote...

iakus wrote...


Synthetics have their own weaknesses.

Most synthetics, yes.  

I meant all.  Everything has a weakness.  Nothing is indestructible.

Their programming can be corrupted or subverted.

 
I've never seen that happen to the Reapers unless they allowed it.

But we have seen it in other synthetics.  There is no reason to think Reapers can't be corrupted or subverted.  Heck TIM was studying how to do that very thing.

They are capable of evolving and changing

But not in ways that can be harmful to them like organics can.

You don't know that.  Their logic can be altered.  Who is to say it can't be altered into self-destructive behavior?

They still need physical housing for their minds, and that means they can be physically harmed.

2km super dreadnought vs 6 foot tall squishy organic. Rather obvious disparity here.

And there's a disparity between a salarian and a krogan. 

Now I don't think it has to happen. It will be a potential issue as long as organics remain fearful and distrustful of AI. That doesn't need to be the case but we've yet to see the galaxy break the chains that cause these conflicts to occur and as long as they do such an AI can be born.

Organics remain fearful and distrustful of each other too.  Overcoming those fears is part of the maturation process.

[SiriusXI]

Funny to see that people still care about Mass Effect... This series so beloved and so hated at the same time that it's actually kind of funny, now that I am at peace with it.

Mass Effect 3: The game with the worst ending in the history of story telling, relative to the quality to the rest of the series.

I guess that's one way to make gaming history. Well done Hudson, well done...

[dreamgazer]

LOL @ worst ending in the history of storytelling.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
A synthetic race has been the greatest threat.  I'm not going to paint all synthetic life with the same brush.  One synthetic race doesn't prove that all are a threat.  That would be as foolish as judging all organic life based on the krogan.  Or the batarians.  Or the asari.

It only takes one synthetic race to destroy everyone. Moreover, the Catalyst never claims that all synthetics always try to destroy all organics. It claims all synthetics will eventually rebel and that one of these races that rebel is eventually going to destroy all organics.