876 réponses à ce sujet

[Sion1138]

AlanC9 wrote...

Right. What the soldiers think they're doing doesn't matter. Same for the Reapers.

But the Catalyst isn't at war with organics any more than humans are at war with cows.

But you could say that it is at war with nature, if indeed as it remarks, the complete replacement of organic with synthetic life is the inevitable and hence natural course of events.

And we don't really kill cows in order to perpetuate the existence of cows, but of ourselves, which is another potentially interesting notion, in that the A.I. may really be doing what it does to preserve itself. 

Modifié par Sion1138, 04 décembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[SDW]

AlanC9 wrote...

Right. What the soldiers think they're doing doesn't matter. Same for the Reapers.

But the Catalyst isn't at war with organics any more than humans are at war with cows.

It's all a game of semantics. Yes, in his mind he's not at war, he's just solving a problem. So, if I don't have the intention of killing people, but I have this addicting habit of sticking knives into them, repeatedly, until they stop living, because I just love me some sticking knives into people, I'm not a murderer? After all, I'm not doing it with the express intention of killing them.

Anyway, as for the OP, that ending would indeed have made the Reapers some kind of good guys with horribly flawed execution. Read elsewhere that the original concept of Reaper harvest was not "sucking up the cells of people" but kind of a destructive download of the people's essence. Well, that way or by making a pseudo-organic-synthetic being, they would only be able to use part of the species harvested. There's always losses due to the ways the Reapers operate (lasering people out of the sky, siccing husks on them etc.). Wouldn't it be more effective to keep them alive and make them cooperate to think on your problem? Once you have subdued them with your Reaper overlord powers. At least guaranteees you won't run out of people to work on the dark energy problem.

Modifié par SDW, 04 décembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[Hazegurl]

AlanC9 wrote...

Right. What the soldiers think they're doing doesn't matter. Same for the Reapers.

But the Catalyst isn't at war with organics any more than humans are at war with cows.

Cows (and fire) aren't shooting at me, trying to thwart my plans for survival by the use of tactics, blowing up factories, transforming my friends and family into half cows to psychologically torture me, sending leaders to guide armies to kill me, instructing their lackeys to purchase a dead body to use, et al.....

"War is an organized and often prolonged conflict that is carried out by states or non-state actors. It is generally characterised by extreme violence, social disruption, and economic destruction."  

"A struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end."
 
Yeah, the Catalyst is most certainly at war with organics. Whether he wants to admit it or not. He is nothing but a synthetic who turned on his creators and killed them just like he said all synthetics will do.

Oh yeah, and I wish they had done something with that dark energy plot. All that set up for nothing.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 04 décembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[GreatBlueHeron]

AlanC9 wrote...

Right. What the soldiers think they're doing doesn't matter. Same for the Reapers.

But the Catalyst isn't at war with organics any more than humans are at war with cows.

The catalyst is at war with advanced organics.  Cows don't fire weapons, although it would be cool if they shot lazers out of their eyes.  Bad analogy.  Mass Effect advanced organics actually fight back and in strategic fashion.  It's not merely reactionary.   

[Ieldra]

Wulfram wrote...
I'm increasingly convinced that the technological singularity was a much better choice for the why or reapers.

Just needed to be handled in a not so stupid way.

I've thought the same for a very long time. The idea that seed AI with the potential for runaway self-improvement presents a danger to the civilization that created them is a well-established SF theme as well as grounded in the MEU with the geth and their Dyson sphere. There was even a Codex entry about it - which was cut!!!!!

The exposition turns it all into nonsense though. My impression is that they had a workable idea but then, for some reason completely inexplicable to me, they replaced it with nonsense. Happened with EDI at the Collector base and ME3's ending. I find this much more objectionable than being unable to come up with something workable in the first place.

[crimzontearz]

Every time I see this I wonder

Why the ****ety **** did they not stick with it?

[Oni Changas]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
I'm increasingly convinced that the technological singularity was a much better choice for the why or reapers.

Just needed to be handled in a not so stupid way.

I've thought the same for a very long time. The idea that seed AI with the potential for runaway self-improvement presents a danger to the civilization that created them is a well-established SF theme as well as grounded in the MEU with the geth and their Dyson sphere. There was even a Codex entry about it - which was cut!!!!!

The exposition turns it all into nonsense though. My impression is that they had a workable idea but then, for some reason completely inexplicable to me, they replaced it with nonsense. Happened with EDI at the Collector base and ME3's ending. I find this much more objectionable than being unable to come up with something workable in the first place.

Looking back, I'd have preferred either this or the DE idea. My original theory and hope would have been that the reapers were a race that reached the apex of evolution that began spreading their way as conquerors of other species (hence the "ascension"). On the other hand, the DE plot was perfect. It WAS the Mass Effect, and gave purpose to the name of this series. Of course things could have been reworked and improved (such as ending on a choice, imo one of the main flaws of the trilogy).

[AlanC9]

Hazegurl wrote...

Cows (and fire) aren't shooting at me, trying to thwart my plans for survival by the use of tactics, blowing up factories, transforming my friends and family into half cows to psychologically torture me, sending leaders to guide armies to kill me, instructing their lackeys to purchase a dead body to use, et al.....
.

Oh, sure.... cows don't do those things to us. But we do at least some of those things to them.

So what makes organized killing "war"? Is it war if the targets fight back? If so, I haven't been at war with cows, but I have been at war with a certain hornet's nest.... unfortunately for hornets, they're not a party to the Geneva Convention, so I used a WMD on them.

[dreamgazer]

OniTYME wrote...

On the other hand, the DE plot was perfect.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Technological singularity and its risks aren't really the essence of the threat, IMO. The creation of the Catalyst and its decision to initiate the cycles was the result of the Leviathans' selfishness and arrogance. It was one more case of someone deciding to exploit other sapient beings and having the consequences spin out of control, which we've seen plenty of in Mass Effect - ExoGeni and the thorian, Project Overlord, the krogan uplift and genophage, Jack and the other children at Pragia, rachni experiments on Noveria, TIM's schemes, and some others I'm probably not thinking of at the moment.

I don't generally like villains that are "beyond our comprehension" or that "only understand force and must be destroyed," yet at the same time bear some resemblance to real people in their thought processes and communications. If they were going that route, they'd have needed to make the Reapers completely uncommunicative and behaving as more of an elemental force than a collection of living beings, and that ship sailed the moment Sovereign opened its mouth.

[KaiserShep]

OniTYME wrote...
On the other hand, the DE plot was perfect.

The DE plot was basically vaporware. It's only perfect because you wish it to be, not because of any merit you find in the details (of which there are practically none).

[Farangbaa]

crimzontearz wrote...

Every time I see this I wonder

Why the ****ety **** did they not stick with it?

Because it's horrible.

[Linkenski]

For me, honestly I thought the ending was good until The Catalyst outright stated what the Reaper's goal was. All they needed to do was completely change the dialogue between Shepard and The Catalyst and the choices, not totally scrap it in my opinion.

But considering the "draft" for Starchild was refered to this before it was fleshed out - "Shepard rises up to the guardian's garden where all mysteries of the universe are revealed to him" - and compare it to Drew's vague idea of the DE ending I think DE had much more chance to actually feel consistent to the story....

...but again talking about "what could've been" is pretty pointless because ME3 would've been a COMPLETELY different story alltogether if Drew had manned the high-level story.

[Argentoid]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
 The final choice culminating in harvesting the human race into a Reaper in order to eliminate or stop dark energy OR blowing the Reapers to hell and hoping for the best. (I like that part. It has weight.)

It makes the Reapers look good and Shepard be the jackass (or antagonist) who screwed up their plans every time.

not really. It shows he was a protagonist that is only human, fighting for survival against things he doesn't comprehend (nobody does). As I stated in a previous post, having the ending of a story turn reality on its ear for the protagonist, is quite common.

Yeah, I know that. But believe me, no one (albeit a small portion) would have liked it... if 90% of the people hated the ending we've got because "it doesn't make sense" and "it's sad" or "no blue babiez", you can quite imagine the massive fan uproar of finding out Shepard was the villain all the time.

(Plus, it makes the trip useless, who the hell would like to play this game again?)

My opinion though.

Modifié par Argentoid, 04 décembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[Argentoid]

Masterpiece.

Modifié par Argentoid, 04 décembre 2013 - 07:38 .

[dreamgazer]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I don't see how you guys can complain about the current endings being dark when the dark energy ones are "sacrifice an entire species" or "let the galaxy die"

Duh: Karpyshyn would've wrote it, so clearly it would've been flawless, void of holes, and utterly gratifying for "true" ME fans.

[dreamgazer]

Argentoid wrote...




Masterpiece.

I love that this exists.

<3