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Drew Karpyshyn provides a few more details about the Dark Energy ending


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#726
Iakus

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txgoldrush wrote...

No, you didn't get it.

Time and time again, the narrative says you can't win without the Crucible, that victory isn't without sacrifice.

So by NOT choosing to impact destinies of others through firing the Crucible, you still impact the destinies of others, sacrificing the entire cycle for your ideals.

That's the nature of the universe, no one is truly free, people will always impact the destinies of others.


That is a dark, cynical outlook on life.  One I'm sure Bioware wholly approves of.

Both Shepard and the galaxy sacrificed plenty even in the most optimal playthroughs.  The Crucible is nothing but an arbitrary trageddy machine so even more angst can be dumped onto a mediocre story.  The Crucible could have done practically anything, could be calibrated as specifically as they wanted.  

But Bioware chose to take the path of "Art" and say beyond a certain EMS score "You shall not pass!"

#727
durasteel

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iakus wrote...
...
Both Shepard and the galaxy sacrificed plenty even in the most optimal playthroughs.  The Crucible is nothing but an arbitrary trageddy machine so even more angst can be dumped onto a mediocre story.  The Crucible could have done practically anything, could be calibrated as specifically as they wanted.  
...


That's a good point. None of the "tragic" outcomes possible from the ending sequence flow naturally or necessarily from the narrative of the game or from the trilogy. For that matter, neither do the "good" effects. 

If you believe that the Crucible will allow you to defeat the reapers, you're probably expecting it to send some kind of signal that disables or weakens them locally, like the Leviathans did. You probably expect it to turn the tide of the battle. You almost certainly did not ride the beam up to the Citadel expecting to wind up with a chain of space magic explosions, nor did you expect to encounter the Mother of All Reapers in the form of the Catalyst.

If the elements you write into the final act of your script are arbitrary, if the entire sequence represents a massive shift in the narrative, if your outcome is driven by new characters you're pulling out of your backside simply to force the story into an end state, then you should probably avoid breaking the world, killing the protagonist, or in any other way limiting your ability to come back later and do it right.

If you have not, in the course of your narative, ever linked the fate and well being of two different characters, it is silly to come along at the end of the story and state that lilling one with somehow--without explanation--also kill the other one.

If you have not, in the course of the narrative, ever even posited the idea of using a biological element like DNA to provide an intelligent machine with organic properties, or to modify an organism on the molecular level to eliminate the need for AI, then introducing this as the solution to your central genocide plot is a bad idea.

If you have not, in the course of the narrative, introduced a god-like being that created and controls the entire army of almost god-like beings that are threatening everyone everywhere with etermination, it is a bad idea to--at the last moment--solve the conflict by simply allowing your protagonist to replace that god-like being with himself. Stories of apotheosis usually use it as a way to ameliorate the tragedy of the death of a sympathetic character, which occurs for reasons which flow natrually from the preceeding narrative.

In other words, if you're going to end your story with a deus ex machina and an incomprehensible resolution which you and the protagonist can only have knowledge of by virtue of a new character telling you, in general terms, what is happening, then whatever the outcome is cannot be other than arbitrary, capricious, and meaningless. If the best you can offer under the circumstances is an arbitrary and capricious ending to the story, there is no reason to also make it unpleasant.

#728
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...

Both Shepard and the galaxy sacrificed plenty even in the most optimal playthroughs.  The Crucible is nothing but an arbitrary trageddy machine so even more angst can be dumped onto a mediocre story.  The Crucible could have done practically anything, could be calibrated as specifically as they wanted.  


Aren't all plots arbitrary?

#729
Armass81

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iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, you didn't get it.

Time and time again, the narrative says you can't win without the Crucible, that victory isn't without sacrifice.

So by NOT choosing to impact destinies of others through firing the Crucible, you still impact the destinies of others, sacrificing the entire cycle for your ideals.

That's the nature of the universe, no one is truly free, people will always impact the destinies of others.


That is a dark, cynical outlook on life.  One I'm sure Bioware wholly approves of.

Both Shepard and the galaxy sacrificed plenty even in the most optimal playthroughs.  The Crucible is nothing but an arbitrary trageddy machine so even more angst can be dumped onto a mediocre story.  The Crucible could have done practically anything, could be calibrated as specifically as they wanted.  

But Bioware chose to take the path of "Art" and say beyond a certain EMS score "You shall not pass!"


Hey ME is still a pretty positive outlook of the future when compared to some other scifi games out there like Halo, where every alien species in the galaxy is out to kill you and humanity for one reason or another, or Dead Space where space is full of zombifying, abomination making living moons which eat planets.

Dark and misery seems to be the theme of the generation....

Modifié par Armass81, 17 décembre 2013 - 06:40 .


#730
durasteel

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AlanC9 wrote...
Aren't all plots arbitrary?


They all start that way, but if they maintain any kind of narrative cohesion then by the time they are concluded they at least do not seem arbitrary.

#731
AlanC9

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durasteel wrote...
If you believe that the Crucible will allow you to defeat the reapers, you're probably expecting it to send some kind of signal that disables or weakens them locally, like the Leviathans did. You probably expect it to turn the tide of the battle. You almost certainly did not ride the beam up to the Citadel expecting to wind up with a chain of space magic explosions, nor did you expect to encounter the Mother of All Reapers in the form of the Catalyst.


This is not very consistent with several conversations in the game, nor with the Crucible's Codex entry, which specifically mentions killing Reapers halfway across the galaxy. Though, yes, a lot of people did expect something like what you're saying. Maybe because they saw Independence Day?

I don't really understand how anyone got to the end of ME3 without expecting the Crucible to do something unexpected, though. Bio beats you over the head with the Crucible's specific function being unknown.

#732
durasteel

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Armass81 wrote...
Hey ME is still a pretty positive outlook of the future when compared to some other scifi games out there like Halo, where every alien species is out to kill you and humanity for one reason or another, or Dead Space where space is full of zombifying, abomination making living moons which eat planets.

Dark and misery seems to be the theme of the generation....


But it is worth noting that Cortana's demise was set up from the very opening sequence of the most recent Halo game, and when it happened at the very end it was a triumph for Cortana, because her "life" bought a real victory and her "death" was on her own terms. It wasn't arbitrary, and when it happened if flowed naturally from the narrative.

And that's not even an RPG.

Modifié par durasteel, 17 décembre 2013 - 06:46 .


#733
durasteel

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AlanC9 wrote...
I don't really understand how anyone got to the end of ME3 without expecting the Crucible to do something unexpected, though. Bio beats you over the head with the Crucible's specific function being unknown.


I expected the Spanish Inquisition.

#734
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I can't say I really gave much thought to what the Crucible would do. By the time I got to Earth, I was going through the motions -- and by the time I was playing through Earth, I was ready for it to end. It sucked so bad I needed it to hurry up.. any ending would probably do at that point.

Not trying to be a total hater btw.. I liked a lot of missions before this one.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 17 décembre 2013 - 06:48 .


#735
AlanC9

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How is Priority: Earth different from those other missions, really? Too long? Too ugly? The last fight's reasonably hard, but shouldn't it be!

#736
dreamgazer

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StreetMagic wrote...

I can't say I really gave much thought to what the Crucible would do. By the time I got to Earth, I was going through the motions -- and by the time I was playing through Earth, I was ready for it to end. 


By that point, since the game drills the point home, I was fully ready for the Crucible to offer the choice between haphazardly destroying (with consequences) or controlling the Reapers.  Synthesis is the out-of-nowhere curveball. 

#737
AresKeith

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txgoldrush wrote...

No, you didn't get it.


You love your catch-phrase don't you

#738
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

Aren't all plots arbitrary?


Not good ones.  A story has to flow in a way that makes sense given the context of its surroundings.  Even a twist should keep things internally consistent from what came before.

Which is why the Crucible, its functions, and the Catalyst rampage through the Mass Effect's structure like a bull in a china shop.  That the galaxy sinks it resources into a "Prothean weapon" with a completely unknown function (let alone three completely unknown function)s is beyond stupid.  And comparing it to the atomic bomb was facepalminly bad, as at least they knew they were working on a bomb.

#739
Wayning_Star

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I dunno, it'd be really really really nice to know who build/designed the crucible gizmo.. How'd they know what the choices would be, or "could" be... yikes!!

#740
Iakus

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StreetMagic wrote...

Not trying to be a total hater btw.. I liked a lot of missions before this one.


That may be the worst part of ME3.  THe good points only further emphasize the bad.  As you gt a glimpse of what could have been,

#741
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AlanC9 wrote...

How is Priority: Earth different from those other missions, really? Too long? Too ugly? The last fight's reasonably hard, but shouldn't it be!


It lacks the sense of character involvement and drama I'd expect more from a mission at that stage in the story. It seems quiet and lonely. The squad doesn't talk (except EDI at that missle), and they dropped whatever plans they had for non squad character involvement (I'm sure you've heard the cut lines from Jack/Grunt/Zaeed/etc). I don't mind the fights and the "ugly environment". It's fitting enough. There's just not much else going on. The whole thing comes off like a template for a mission. Like watching the rehearsal of a play - but not the opening night version.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 17 décembre 2013 - 07:00 .


#742
Wayning_Star

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Look Ma, I'm like totally draumatized... (<new word day ;)

#743
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...

Which is why the Crucible, its functions, and the Catalyst rampage through the Mass Effect's structure like a bull in a china shop.  That the galaxy sinks it resources into a "Prothean weapon" with a completely unknown function (let alone three completely unknown function)s is beyond stupid.  And comparing it to the atomic bomb was facepalminly bad, as at least they knew they were working on a bomb.


I'm not sure how you're using "stupid" there. Any chance beats zero chance. (And the three functions are irrelevant since nobody knows about them)

#744
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I wouldn't say they're wasting their resources on the Crucible. It's a silly plot device for the ending, but it supposedly has other uses. Kahlee Sanders talks about how it will inform human advancement for decades to come. It'd be nice if they went into more detail and all, but whatever. The experience of building it was supposed to be rewarding in itself.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 17 décembre 2013 - 07:07 .


#745
AlanC9

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StreetMagic wrote...
It lacks the sense of character involvement and drama I'd expect more from a mission at that stage in the story. It seems quiet and lonely. The squad doesn't talk (except EDI at that missle), and they dropped whatever plans they had for non squad character involvement (I'm sure you've heard the cut lines from Jack/Grunt/Zaeed/etc). I don't mind the fights and the "ugly environment". It's fitting enough. There's just not much else going on. The whole thing comes off like a template for a mission. Like watching the rehearsal of a play - but not the opening night version.


So it's not too long per se, but too long relative to the amount of noncombat content? As opposed to the SM, which breaks up the slog with speeches and whatnot?

OK, but then how is Priority:Earth different from the final mission of ME1? That's a long slog up the Presidium Tower leading up to the Saren boss fights.

#746
dreamgazer

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AlanC9 wrote...

How is Priority: Earth different from those other missions, really? Too long? Too ugly? The last fight's reasonably hard, but shouldn't it be!


My gripes with it are the lack of varation depending on your gathered military assets and the overly-rigid corridor feel to the maze leading up to the wavey missle-defense segment.  The ugliness and chaos were expected, so I wasn't as bothered by it as others were.  Not a favorite, but meh.

Image IPB

#747
MassivelyEffective0730

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Priority: Earth just feels so empty and anti-climatic.

#748
Armass81

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AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Which is why the Crucible, its functions, and the Catalyst rampage through the Mass Effect's structure like a bull in a china shop.  That the galaxy sinks it resources into a "Prothean weapon" with a completely unknown function (let alone three completely unknown function)s is beyond stupid.  And comparing it to the atomic bomb was facepalminly bad, as at least they knew they were working on a bomb.


I'm not sure how you're using "stupid" there. Any chance beats zero chance. (And the three functions are irrelevant since nobody knows about them)


Crucible is a pretty weak plot device, but what sort of solution would you expect when you have painted the enemy as hyper advanced dreadnoughts that number in the thousands and you have a middle part of the trilogy which advances the story about nil? A few thanix cannons aint gonna help in there.

Also I think they did at one point figure out that its a device which produces huge amounts of energy like Hackett says, but they didnt yet know how it would disperse the energy and in what form. Thus they had to still find the missing part.

Modifié par Armass81, 17 décembre 2013 - 07:22 .


#749
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AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
It lacks the sense of character involvement and drama I'd expect more from a mission at that stage in the story. It seems quiet and lonely. The squad doesn't talk (except EDI at that missle), and they dropped whatever plans they had for non squad character involvement (I'm sure you've heard the cut lines from Jack/Grunt/Zaeed/etc). I don't mind the fights and the "ugly environment". It's fitting enough. There's just not much else going on. The whole thing comes off like a template for a mission. Like watching the rehearsal of a play - but not the opening night version.


So it's not too long per se, but too long relative to the amount of noncombat content? As opposed to the SM, which breaks up the slog with speeches and whatnot?

OK, but then how is Priority:Earth different from the final mission of ME1? That's a long slog up the Presidium Tower leading up to the Saren boss fights.


You're asking the wrong person. There isn't much memorable about ME1 to me either (But the total package works. The individual missions by themselves aren't that great to me).

My favorite part actually is after Eden Prime - the first couple of hours of wandering the Citadel and banging Sha'ira/killing Fist/talking to Barla Von/recruiting Wrex. Apparently people complained about this when it came out.. I remember Hudson saying this was his favorite thing to do too.. just wandering around and getting a feel for the people and game world. Then they took it out. Like the Mako.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 17 décembre 2013 - 07:19 .


#750
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Which is why the Crucible, its functions, and the Catalyst rampage through the Mass Effect's structure like a bull in a china shop.  That the galaxy sinks it resources into a "Prothean weapon" with a completely unknown function (let alone three completely unknown function)s is beyond stupid.  And comparing it to the atomic bomb was facepalminly bad, as at least they knew they were working on a bomb.


I'm not sure how you're using "stupid" there. Any chance beats zero chance. (And the three functions are irrelevant since nobody knows about them)


Stupid as in foolish, naive, credulous, overly trusting.

The problem is:  the "chance" the Crucible provided was unquantifiable for the entirety of the game.  It may very well have been zero chance and it was an exercise in futility.  Or worse, It may have been a Reaper trap.  Odds were just as good as it being a Reaper "off" switch.  Or a "Summon Bigger Fish" spell.  There was literally no way to know.  Even as it was being built, no one knew what it was supposed to do.