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[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I don't accept garbage, House, and I don't really care what it compares against. It's still garbage.

I eagerly await this non-garbage alternative.

Note: I'm not fond of the Harbinger-infiltration idea, either.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Stupid as in foolish, naive, credulous, overly trusting.

The problem is:  the "chance" the Crucible provided was unquantifiable for the entirety of the game.  It may very well have been zero chance and it was an exercise in futility.  Or worse, It may have been a Reaper trap.  Odds were just as good as it being a Reaper "off" switch.  Or a "Summon Bigger Fish" spell.  There was literally no way to know.  Even as it was being built, no one knew what it was supposed to do.  

So we can trust Vigil but not the Crucible plans, got it.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

  A thousand Sovereign class Reapers? The war wouldn't have lasted a month. Even a hundred would be invincible.

I'll let you have the "easily" there since the fudge factors are arbitrary.

Actually my estimate while likely innacurate, is also quite conservative.

Derelict Reaper was 37 million years old (estimated)  Assuming cycles come every 50,000 years (which granted may or may not be standard) you get 740 Reapers assuming no losses (already innacurate because Derelict Reaper) and one Reaper is made every single cycle.  That's plenty of room for the Derelict to not be the oldest Reaper ever and have under a thousand Reapers total invading the galaxy.


Instead we get those 740 Reapers (and likely more) plus untold thousands of other Reaper destroyers.  And the fighting went on for a lot longer than a month.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Stupid as in foolish, naive, credulous, overly trusting.

The problem is:  the "chance" the Crucible provided was unquantifiable for the entirety of the game.  It may very well have been zero chance and it was an exercise in futility.  Or worse, It may have been a Reaper trap.  Odds were just as good as it being a Reaper "off" switch.  Or a "Summon Bigger Fish" spell.  There was literally no way to know.  Even as it was being built, no one knew what it was supposed to do.  

So we can trust Vigil but not the Crucible plans, got it.

Shepard was going after Saren anyway.  Doing a fetch quest for Vigil was a bonus that took no extra effort on Shepard's part.

Besides which, Vigil was at least willing to explain what was going on.  Apparantly the Protheans who put the blueprints into the Mars Archives couldn't even be bothered to include a description of what the plans were for.  Seriously, how Did Liara even know it was a weapon? 

[Deathsaurer]

Now try to make sense of the Leviathan of Dis' original age estimate with the Leviathan DLC estimate. Keep in mind, the original estimate could be accurate depending how you interpret what the Catalyst says about being created eons ago.

This is the problem with the Reapers. They're too freaking old, all our tech is based off theirs, they're really really big robots you can't really "fight", they have mind control powers because the rest of that isn't enough. Well damn, no wonder this is a lopsided mess.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Shepard was going after Saren anyway.  Doing a fetch quest for Vigil was a bonus that took no extra effort on Shepard's part.

Shepard knows somehow that Vigil's "fetch quest" isn't a trap?

Besides which, Vigil was at least willing to explain what was going on.  Apparantly the Protheans who put the blueprints into the Mars Archives couldn't even be bothered to include a description of what the plans were for.  Seriously, how Did Liara even know it was a weapon?

Vigil could be feeding you misinformation. You have no way of knowing beyond the obvious way of knowing: meta-gaming.

And Liara specifically corrected the Council by saying it wasn't a weapon: it was plans for a device which could in theory be turned into a weapon.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 décembre 2013 - 04:32 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Shepard knows somehow that Vigil's "fetch quest" isn't a trap?

Maybe it is.  But when Shepard gets there, the ward arms are closed and the relay network has already been shut down.  Not much left to try at that pont.  

Granted a counter-hacking minigame against Sovereign might hav ebeen interesting.  But then, other players seem to have a thing against minigames 

Vigil could be feeding you misinformation. You have no way of knowing beyond the obvious way of knowing: meta-gaming.

Sure.  Except what Vigil says fits with what information has been gathered throughout the game.  But you can assume the VI is lying.  DOes that mean you should stop chasing Saren?

In addition, Vigil puts up a barrier curtain and won't let you pass until it's told its story.  Might as well listen.

And Liara specifically corrected the Council by saying it wasn't a weapon: it was plans for a device which could in theory be turned into a weapon.

A device the Protheans nearly destroyed teh Reapers with.  But they ran out of time.

Isn't that why they were building it now?  

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote..
Derelict Reaper was 37 million years old (estimated)  Assuming cycles come every 50,000 years (which granted may or may not be standard) you get 740 Reapers assuming no losses (already innacurate because Derelict Reaper) and one Reaper is made every single cycle.  That's plenty of room for the Derelict to not be the oldest Reaper ever and have under a thousand Reapers total invading the galaxy.

Instead we get those 740 Reapers (and likely more) plus untold thousands of other Reaper destroyers.  And the fighting went on for a lot longer than a month.

Wait... I thought your argument was about Bio making the Reapers overpowered. This argument sounds like Bio severely nerfed them. 740 ordinary dreadnoughts would crush the Citadel forces with ease. And we're going to have to handwave the Leviathan of Dis date away, but I'm sure you'll have no problem doing that.

Just to go back to how we got here, my point about ME2 was that the 295 Reapers someone counted at the end of ME2 was enough to beat the Citadel forces easily, assuming they were all Sovereign-class.

Where do you get the idea that there are that many Reapers flying around in ME3, anyway? I doubt there are more than a couple of hundred. The Reapers aren't threatened by the Citadel fleets, but they aren't just steamrollering them.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 décembre 2013 - 04:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Maybe it is.  But when Shepard gets there, the ward arms are closed and the relay network has already been shut down.  Not much left to try at that pont.

So what you're saying is, Shepard has....no choice but to trust Vigil's data file? This is starting to sound familiar!

Sure.  Except what Vigil says fits with what information has been gathered throughout the game.  But you can assume the VI is lying.  DOes that mean you should stop chasing Saren?

How do you even know you are actually chasing Saren? Because Vigil told ya so? Remember when he said Reapers were "trapped" in dark space? How'd that work out? (and before you answer, that's an ME1 problem. Shepard says the Reapers are coming at the end of ME1. Wut?)

A device the Protheans nearly destroyed teh Reapers with.  But they ran out of time.

Isn't that why they were building it now?  

You asked and I answered. The plans are for a device. It isn't weaponized until it syncs with the Citadel.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wait... I thought your argument was about Bio making the Reapers overpowered. This argument sounds like Bio severely nerfed them. 740 ordinary dreadnoughts would crush the Citadel forces with ease. And we're going to have to handwave the Leviathan of Dis date away, but I'm sure you'll have no problem doing that.

My argument is that they made the Reapers unbeatable.  Before, Reapers were very powerful, but could be stopped.  They had weaknesses.  Otherwise they wouldn't need to capture the Citadel and isolate the systems.  One way they made the Reapers unbeatable was by vastly increasing their numbers.   Now it really doesn't matter if they spread out and take on the whole galaxy at once.  They have reserves, after all 

As for the Leviathan of Dis, that is a good pont, but I don't think the Leviathan was meant to be a Reaper originally.  I believe it was one of those little details from the planet descriptions (like the "Beings of Light" and the "Monsters from the Id" warning) that fans latched onto and got incorporated into the story later.  A Farscape easter egg transformed into something more.  The Derelict Reaper was clearly a Reaper with a fairly accurate age (well, if you trust The Illusive Man, I suppose)

[Deathsaurer]

A lot of people just don't like being railroaded into working with the thing that appears as a dead kid saying I control the Reapers. Nothing wrong with that. It does have a rather serious credibility issue after all.

iakus wrote...

As for the Leviathan of Dis, that is a good pont, but I don't think the Leviathan was meant to be a Reaper originally.  I believe it was one of those little details from the planet descriptions (like the "Beings of Light" and the "Monsters from the Id" warning) that fans latched onto and got incorporated into the story later.  A Farscape easter egg transformed into something more. The Derelict Reaper was clearly a Reaper with a fairly accurate age (well, if you trust The Illusive Man, I suppose)

Eh the Leviathan DLC gave it a new estimate of at least 30 something million years old similar to the derelict Reaper. Doesn't mean the original can't be correct but there is a rather large difference between the two.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:06 .

[dreamgazer]

Before, Reapers were very powerful, but could be stopped.

Then why hasn't it happened before now?

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

So what you're saying is, Shepard has....no choice but to trust Vigil's data file? This is starting to sound familiar!

And I said a counter-hacking minigame might have been a cool idea.  

How do you even know you are actually chasing Saren? Because Vigil told ya so? Remember when he said Reapers were "trapped" in dark space? How'd that work out? (and before you answer, that's an ME1 problem. Shepard says the Reapers are coming at the end of ME1. Wut?)

How do we know?  Well, we are following the Mako-sized corridor Bioware provided for us, until the barrier came down, at least 

trapped in dark space?  yeah, I blame the writers of the sequels for not such poor planning they couldn't even remember the details of what they had written before.  As for Shepard, remember, immortal sentient starships.  They may well be coming.  It may not be in Shepard's lifetime, but it pays to think long term, right?

You asked and I answered. The plans are for a device. It isn't weaponized until it syncs with the Citadel.

A device the Protheans were going to use as a weapon against the Reapers.

And yet the blueprints still don't include what the device does.  Either as a weapon, or as the Galaxy's Biggest Popcorn Maker.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I don't accept garbage, House, and I don't really care what it compares against. It's still garbage.

This is an ontological paradox if I ever saw one...

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Before, Reapers were very powerful, but could be stopped.

Then why hasn't it happened before now?

Because the Reapers hit the Citadel first.  They decapitate galactic government, shut down the relays, gather as much information they can on the current cycle's races, and hit them while they are isolated.  Divide and conquer. The Reapers never face a united front.  It's slow, but they can hit each system with overwhelming force before reinforcments can arrive.  Or even before others learn of the attack and respond.

And even then, they do suffer occassional losses.

[CronoDragoon]

How do we know?  Well, we are following the Mako-sized corridor Bioware provided for us, until the barrier came down, at least 

So like I said, meta-gaming.

trapped in dark space?  yeah, I blame the writers of the sequels for not such poor planning they couldn't even remember the details of what they had written before.  As for Shepard, remember, immortal sentient starships.  They may well be coming.  It may not be in Shepard's lifetime, but it pays to think long term, right?

The ending of Mass Effect 1 can't even remember the details of what came an hour before. As of the end of ME1, the Reapers are officially "coming" and Shepard gives no indication that by "we need to be ready" he means anything but the actual people in that room. You haven't stopped them; you've just taken their car keys, and Shepard and Anderson still expect them to make it by running in their lifetime.

And yet the blueprints still don't include what the device does.  Either as a weapon, or as the Galaxy's Biggest Popcorn Maker.

And?

[dreamgazer]

Without Vigil, speculations over how exactly the supposed relay-looking device functioned, or where it went, would have been all over the place. And by the time Shepard and crew got done speculating, its contrived window of functionality would have closed.

[Iakus]

[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...

[quote]How do we know?  Well, we are following the Mako-sized corridor Bioware provided for us, until the barrier came down, at least [/quote]

So like I said, meta-gaming.[/quote]

/shrug  Call it what you like.  But Shepard was heading in that direction anyway.  If the VI says "I'm not unlocking the door until you take this security override" there's not a whole heck of a lot the player can do about it.  I'm certainly not endorsing it.  

[quote]The ending of Mass Effect 1 can't even remember the details of what came an hour before. As of the end of ME1, the Reapers are officially "coming" and Shepard gives no indication that by "we need to be ready" he means anything but the actual people in that room. You haven't stopped them; you've just taken their car keys, and Shepard and Anderson still expect them to make it by running in their lifetime.[/quote]
Where do they say when they expect the Reapers to arrive?  All I recall is a lot of rah-rah about how they'll drive them back into dark space when they do come.

[quote]
[quote]

And yet the blueprints still don't include what the device does.  Either as a weapon, or as the Galaxy's Biggest Popcorn Maker.

[/quote]

And?

[/quote]
[/quote]

If I buy a popcorn maker I expect to A) Know that it's a popciorn maker and that it have instructions on how to use it (not just assemble it)  

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Before, Reapers were very powerful, but could be stopped.

Then why hasn't it happened before now?

Because the Reapers hit the Citadel first.  They decapitate galactic government, shut down the relays, gather as much information they can on the current cycle's races, and hit them while they are isolated.  Divide and conquer. The Reapers never face a united front.  It's slow, but they can hit each system with overwhelming force before reinforcments can arrive.  Or even before others learn of the attack and respond.

And even then, they do suffer occassional losses.

And this never happened in a previous cycle ... why?  There are many to account for here.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Without Vigil, speculations over how exactly the supposed relay-looking device functioned, or where it went, would have been all over the place. And by the time Shepard and crew got done speculating, its contrived window of functionality would have closed.

SO wait, is specualtion good or bad now?  

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

And this never happened in a previous cycle ... why?  There are many to account for here.

Afraid I don't understand the question.  What never happened in a previous cycle?  Yes, there plan has worked every time.  But it clearl yhasn't always worked perfectly.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

/shrug  Call it what you like.  But Shepard was heading in that direction anyway.  If the VI says "I'm not unlocking the door until you take this security override" there's not a whole heck of a lot the player can do about it.  I'm certainly not endorsing it. 

Does it follow that Shepard should then use said security override?

Where do they say when they expect the Reapers to arrive?  All I recall is a lot of rah-rah about how they'll drive them back into dark space when they do come.

Uh, exactly? Come on man, just concede this. It looks like you're being an ostrich otherwise. The ending of ME1 is clearly setting up the expectation of Shepard and galaxy vs. the Reapers. That doesn't happen if they are trapped in dark space.

If I buy a popcorn maker I expect to A) Know that it's a popciorn maker and that it have instructions on how to use it (not just assemble it) 

Oh there's definitely questions about how the Crucible plans can hinge on the Catalyst when the Protheans don't know what the Catalyst is, specifically. Presumably what was true for the Protheans was not true for earlier races. What's this got to do with Liara knowing the Crucible can be used as a weapon? Hell, I can use a popcorn maker as a weapon.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
 Desperate Measures (destroying Reapers with exploding relays and objects at FTL speeds can one shot Reapers), also the Battle of Palaven suggests that going on the offensive could work (as an aside, the Turian hierarchy has to be the most competent group in the galaxy).

They didn't actually manage to crash anything into a Reaper at FTL speeds. And blowing up relays wouldn't destroy Reapers without getting really lucky, and was never attempted. You sure you read that entry?

And Palaven wasn't a victory. Stalemate, maybe.

As for the missions (this could just be me) there seems to be a rising feeling of hope that things are growing less and less desperate -- at least until Thessia, which I think is one of the reasons why I find it so jarring.

I'm sure that's intentional. Thessia reminds you what the situation really is.

I'm just saying if they adopt these tactics everyone might just be able to pull it off.

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...

As for the missions (this could just be me) there seems to be a rising feeling of hope that things are growing less and less desperate -- at least until Thessia, which I think is one of the reasons why I find it so jarring.

I'm sure that's intentional. Thessia reminds you what the situation really is.

I see both the growing sense of hope and the despair of Thessia as linked to completion of the Crucible plans (or the failure of), so I don't see the relevance to the possibility of conventional warfare.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:35 .

[Deathsaurer]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I'm just saying if they adopt these tactics everyone might just be able to pull it off.

What would be left though? Sacking entire star systems is an awful tactic in the long run. Not to mention you would only end up pushing the Reapers into an actual war stance where they do stuff like use WMDs and theirs will be better.