876 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How did Liara know the Crucible was a weapon? Come on guys, it's simple. The plans said ACME Reaper Killer (some assembly required) and had a picture of this guy
on them.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Does it follow that Shepard should then use said security override?

Given that it costs Shepard nothing to attempt it, sure.  Sovereign was about to open teh dark space relay anyway

And I mean, it's not like he sank the galaxy's resources into creating this override 

Uh, exactly? Come on man, just concede this. It looks like you're being an ostrich otherwise. The ending of ME1 is clearly setting up the expectation of Shepard and galaxy vs. the Reapers. That doesn't happen if they are trapped in dark space.

Except they already tried once to get out of dark space.  Are they going to just give up?  the Reapers are still out there.  They're going to keep trying to get back in here.  The galaxy won't be safe until they're stopped for good.

Carthago delenda est

Oh there's definitely questions about how the Crucible plans can hinge on the Catalyst when the Protheans don't know what the Catalyst is, specifically. Presumably what was true for the Protheans was not true for earlier races. Still, I don't see how this shows that Liara can't possibly know the Crucible is a weapon, which was your original question.

And you're saying it might not even be a weapon but a weaponized...something.

Again how does Liara know this?  How does she know it was something the Protheans intended to be used against the Reapers, if you find that a better way of phrasing it?

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How did Liara know the Crucible was a weapon? Come on guys, it's simple. The plans said ACME Reaper Killer (some assembly required) and had a picture of this guy
on them.

:lol::lol::lol:

Okay, now it all makes sense!

That's art I can appreciate!

Modifié par iakus, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Deathsaurer wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I'm just saying if they adopt these tactics everyone might just be able to pull it off.

What would be left though? Sacking entire star systems is an awful tactic in the long run. Not to mention you would only end up pushing the Reapers into an actual war stance where they do stuff like use WMDs and theirs will be better.

Okay, no more conventional victory talk for the DE ending.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Given that it costs Shepard nothing to attempt it, sure.  Sovereign was about to open teh dark space relay anyway

The data file is actually a virus that removes the last layer of protection between Sovereign and the Citadel dark relay controls. Galaxy loses. ALL SHEPARD'S FAULT.

And I mean, it's not like he sank the galaxy's resources into creating this override 

Hypothetically speaking, if this were a magic genie option for him, he definitely would have.

Except they already tried once to get out of dark space.  Are they going to just give up?  the Reapers are still out there.  They're going to keep trying to get back in here.  The galaxy won't be safe until they're stopped for good.

So we agree that ME1 already establishes the expectation that there will be a Reaper War. In what way could there have been a Reaper war without invalidating what happened in ME1? "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just FTL'd here anyway." vs. "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just used another dark space relay." I don't see how the latter is any better than the former.

Again how does Liara know this?  How does she know it was something the Protheans intended to be used against the Reapers, if you find that a better way of phrasing it?

What else could it be exactly, given the time of the plans and the manner in which it functions? While they don't know how the Crucible disperses the massive energy it builds up, how else is it going to be used given when it was built?

[ImaginaryMatter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

So we agree that ME1 already establishes the expectation that there will be a Reaper War. In what way could there have been a Reaper war without invalidating what happened in ME1? "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just FTL'd here anyway." vs. "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just used another dark space relay." I don't see how the latter is any better than the former.

This is how I always thought of it. The purpose of the Citadel plan was to both get the Reapers into the galaxy and disrupt the leadership of the Organic races. I think ME1 can still be important even if the Reapers get into the galaxy because the current cycle controls the Citadel and all the advantages that go along with it.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The data file is actually a virus that removes the last layer of protection between Sovereign and the Citadel dark relay controls. Galaxy loses. ALL SHEPARD'S FAULT.

Ward arms are closed, relays shut down, Sovereign appears to be mating with the Presidium Tower.  Maybe it's a virus, but at this point we're minutes at best form losing anyway.

Though it it were a virus, my Shep's last thoughts would likely be someting along the lines of "Why did Vigil give this to me instead of Saren?" 

Hypothetically speaking, if this were a magic genie option for him, he definitely would have.

Huh?

So we agree that ME1 already establishes the expectation that there will be a Reaper War. In what way could there have been a Reaper war without invalidating what happened in ME1? "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just FTL'd here anyway." vs. "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just used another dark space relay." I don't see how the latter is any better than the former.

Sure.  A Reaper War will come eventually.

But ME1 does not establish when it will happen.  Years?  Decades?  Centuries?  ME1 buys the galaxy time (time which ME2 and ME3 squandered)

What else could it be exactly, given the time of the plans and the manner in which it functions? While they don't know how the Crucible disperses the massive energy it builds up, how else is it going to be used given when it was built?

Time of the plans?  You mean how Liara fortuitously happens to find them just as the Reapers are attacking?

And I thought the manner which it functions was the big question.

And again, we don't know how Liara knows it'sa device to be used against the Reapers.  Is there an upload date in the archives?

 "Shepard the plans fo rthis device device were added to the Archives five years after the Reapers attacked the Citadel during the Prothean cycle!"

FOr all they knew it could have been part of a terraforming project for Mars.  

Modifié par iakus, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Ward arms are closed, relays shut down, Sovereign appears to be mating with the Presidium Tower.  Maybe it's a virus, but at this point we're minutes at best form losing anyway.

You're giving an excellent rationale for using the Crucible at the end of ME3, by the way.

Though it it were a virus, my Shep's last thoughts would likely be someting along the lines of "Why did Vigil give this to me instead of Saren?"

That's a fair point. The bottom line you've come up with is that Shepard trusts Vigil because he has no other choice. You've discovered the exact explicit reason for the Crucible in ME3. If you question the Crucible you question Vigil's data file.

Huh?

Whether or not Shepard actually uses up the galaxy's resources is not as relevant a question as whether or not he'd be willing to (hypothetically and magically, hence genie) to stop Sovereign.

But ME1 does not establish when it will happen.

Uh, yeah it kinda does. You know it won't be centuries because then Shepard won't be around for you to play.

ME1 buys the galaxy time (time which ME2 and ME3 squandered)

Demonstrably incorrect, as both ME1 and Arrival buy Liara time to find the Crucible. It's irrelevant whether or not you like this plot point when considering whether or not ME1 and Arrival mattered.

Time of the plans?  You mean how Liara fortuitously happens to find them just as the Reapers are attacking?

Actually no, I was talking about when they were built, but I'm sure you knew that.

And I thought the manner which it functions was the big question.

Borderline semantics, but the manner in which it disperses its energy is the question. The manner in which it builds and channels the energy to do this is another question.

And again, we don't know how Liara knows it'sa device to be used against the Reapers.  Is there an upload date in the archives?

This is hard to believe...why?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...


Because the Reapers hit the Citadel first.  They decapitate galactic government, shut down the relays, gather as much information they can on the current cycle's races, and hit them while they are isolated.  Divide and conquer. The Reapers never face a united front.  It's slow, but they can hit each system with overwhelming force before reinforcments can arrive.  Or even before others learn of the attack and respond.

And even then, they do suffer occassional losses.

You've made this argument several times now and this has never once made sense.

Are you afraid of cows uniting to overthrow humans? That the Reapers choose the most efficient means of slaughter/capture is not even remotely an indicator that they fear us.

Until ME3, the only Reaper we see in action (discounting the dead Reaper) is Sovereign, who demonstrates pretty definitively that he does not fear us at all, barring the extremely specialized scenario of killing Saren bringing down his shields.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

CronoDragoon wrote...

So we agree that ME1 already establishes the expectation that there will be a Reaper War. In what way could there have been a Reaper war without invalidating what happened in ME1? "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just FTL'd here anyway." vs. "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just used another dark space relay." I don't see how the latter is any better than the former.

My only issue is that it sort of depowers dark space as a concept. I can't say for certain what dark space is in real life, but in Mass Effect having it be this area which anyone can simply fly to or from seems rather anticlimactic. It really just becomes another part of the battlefield.

[durasteel]

CronoDragoon wrote...
...
So we agree that ME1 already establishes the expectation that there will be a Reaper War. In what way could there have been a Reaper war without invalidating what happened in ME1? "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just FTL'd here anyway." vs. "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just used another dark space relay." I don't see how the latter is any better than the former.
...

The dark space relay wasn't destroyed, but Shepard thwarted the reapers effort to turn it on.

Forcing the reapers to FTL their way back into the galaxy from dark space should have set up future conflict in a grounded context. Rather than instantly arriving at the heart of galactic civilization, we now were in a position to  know they were coming and prsumably detect their arrival months ahead of time. We also had time to prepare.

For whatever reason, all of those elements were completely discarded in ME2 and ME3. The Citadel Council denied the reaper threat, almost no preparations were made, when the reapers arrived in Batarian space no one else knew about it, and when the reapers moved on toward Earth everyone was surprised by it.

Perhaps the worst way in which ME1 was disregarded was that instead of being a trap and a giant deep space relay that relied on the keepers to control it, the Citadel was turned into a space magic transmitter that was part of the Catalyst, an AI that created and controlled all the reapers and yet couldn't activate its own relay. I mean, if you have the Catalyst as the literal ghost in the Citdadel's machine, what the hell did we need Sovereign for? Why not just indoctrinate the entire Citadel population? 

Nonsense. All of it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...


Because the Reapers hit the Citadel first.  They decapitate galactic government, shut down the relays, gather as much information they can on the current cycle's races, and hit them while they are isolated.  Divide and conquer. The Reapers never face a united front.  It's slow, but they can hit each system with overwhelming force before reinforcments can arrive.  Or even before others learn of the attack and respond.

And even then, they do suffer occassional losses.

You've made this argument several times now and this has never once made sense.

Are you afraid of cows uniting to overthrow humans? That the Reapers choose the most efficient means of slaughter/capture is not even remotely an indicator that they fear us.

Until ME3, the only Reaper we see in action (discounting the dead Reaper) is Sovereign, who demonstrates pretty definitively that he does not fear us at all, barring the extremely specialized scenario of killing Saren bringing down his shields.

I think he's basing this off the Vigil conversation.

[Wayning_Star]

I wonder, maybe the catalyst (or replacement) will eventually have to literally destroy all organic being. It's the only way to be sure?

see that logic trap, if any?

[Redbelle]

Bringing up one of the points from above..... I'm fine with the concept of the Crucible..... Just not in how it was utilised.

I mean, the Crucible, is a McGuffin. So you have this McGuffin called the Crucible...... Now invent a way this McGuffin works that will resolve whatever central issue needs resolving.

The fact they can dock a Crucible into the Citadel is a fine piece of Sci-Fi let down by execution. and bad plotting, I encourage the story boarders to sit down and GM some roll20 game systems to get back, an idea, of how Bioware learned how to develop interactive storylines meshed with gameplay mechanics.

[Wayning_Star]

how many millions of years did the designers of the  crucible have to figure out where to put  The Double McGuffin ?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Redbelle wrote...

Bringing up one of the points from above..... I'm fine with the concept of the Crucible..... Just not in how it was utilised.

I mean, the Crucible, is a McGuffin. So you have this McGuffin called the Crucible...... Now invent a way this McGuffin works that will resolve whatever central issue needs resolving.

The fact they can dock a Crucible into the Citadel is a fine piece of Sci-Fi let down by execution. and bad plotting, I encourage the story boarders to sit down and GM some roll20 game systems to get back, an idea, of how Bioware learned how to develop interactive storylines meshed with gameplay mechanics.

I probably would have been fine with the Crucible if it had been introduced in ME2 and the plot of that game focused on discovering who built it, what it doesn, what its purpose is, etc.

[dreamgazer]

(sigh)

Not a MacGuffin, folks, nor is it the closest thing to a MacGuffin in the series.

[CronoDragoon]

durasteel wrote...
The dark space relay wasn't destroyed, but Shepard thwarted the reapers effort to turn it on.

For practical purposes it's the same difference. The Reapers can no longer use it.

For whatever reason, all of those elements were completely discarded in ME2 and ME3. The Citadel Council denied the reaper threat, almost no preparations were made, when the reapers arrived in Batarian space no one else knew about it, and when the reapers moved on toward Earth everyone was surprised by it.

The Council's flipflopping eventually becomes tiresome to the player. They believe Shepard. Wait, maybe they don't. Actually according to Citadel they do but don't admit it! We could get into the political psychology of all this, but even with such an explanation I don't find it particularly compelling.

Perhaps the worst way in which ME1 was disregarded was that instead of being a trap and a giant deep space relay that relied on the keepers to control it, the Citadel was turned into a space magic transmitter that was part of the Catalyst, an AI that created and controlled all the reapers and yet couldn't activate its own relay. I mean, if you have the Catalyst as the literal ghost in the Citdadel's machine, what the hell did we need Sovereign for? Why not just indoctrinate the entire Citadel population? 

Nonsense. All of it.

There's really no sensible explanation for the relationship between the Catalyst and the Citadel's relay system. They all require extreme mental hula-hoops. For example:

Explanation:  the Catalyst can't actually control the Citadel. He's never shown with this capability, even in ME3. Saying the Citadel is a part of him doesn't mean he can control it. But wait, the Reapers created the Citadel and mass relays, which means the Catalyst did. Why would the Catalyst create a platform on which to house himself that he couldn't control?

Explanation: He didn't actually create the Citadel, the Leviathans did, and placed restrictions on his ability to access the Citadel's control systems. Okay, but this is merely inferred to avoid a plot hole, not explicitly stated or implied.

And so on.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 décembre 2013 - 05:35 .

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

As for the missions (this could just be me) there seems to be a rising feeling of hope that things are growing less and less desperate -- at least until Thessia, which I think is one of the reasons why I find it so jarring.

I'm sure that's intentional. Thessia reminds you what the situation really is.

I see both the growing sense of hope and the despair of Thessia as linked to completion of the Crucible plans (or the failure of), so I don't see the relevance to the possibility of conventional warfare.

Didn't mean to sound like I was signing on with the CV madness there. I was just talking about the overall mood of the story. I didn't realize that "hope" in the quote above had anything to do with hope for a conventional victory.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 décembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Only-Twin]

durasteel wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
...
So we agree that ME1 already establishes the expectation that there will be a Reaper War. In what way could there have been a Reaper war without invalidating what happened in ME1? "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just FTL'd here anyway." vs. "We destroyed the relay to dark space, but the Reapers just used another dark space relay." I don't see how the latter is any better than the former.
...

The dark space relay wasn't destroyed, but Shepard thwarted the reapers effort to turn it on.

Forcing the reapers to FTL their way back into the galaxy from dark space should have set up future conflict in a grounded context. Rather than instantly arriving at the heart of galactic civilization, we now were in a position to  know they were coming and prsumably detect their arrival months ahead of time. We also had time to prepare.

For whatever reason, all of those elements were completely discarded in ME2 and ME3. The Citadel Council denied the reaper threat, almost no preparations were made, when the reapers arrived in Batarian space no one else knew about it, and when the reapers moved on toward Earth everyone was surprised by it.

Perhaps the worst way in which ME1 was disregarded was that instead of being a trap and a giant deep space relay that relied on the keepers to control it, the Citadel was turned into a space magic transmitter that was part of the Catalyst, an AI that created and controlled all the reapers and yet couldn't activate its own relay. I mean, if you have the Catalyst as the literal ghost in the Citdadel's machine, what the hell did we need Sovereign for? Why not just indoctrinate the entire Citadel population? 

Nonsense. All of it.

Basically everything went south after ME1. I think the Reapers should have been nothing more than an ancient machine race that wiped out the protheans and were trying to return to do the same thing again. No godlike supernatural catalyst crap, no synthesis or synthetic/organic subplot. Simple would have been better. 

[AlanC9]

Only-Twin wrote...
Basically everything went south after ME1. I think the Reapers should have been nothing more than an ancient machine race that wiped out the protheans and were trying to return to do the same thing again. No godlike supernatural catalyst crap, no synthesis or synthetic/organic subplot. Simple would have been better. 

The problem started in ME1. The cycles do nothing useful for the Reapers.

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Explanation:  the Catalyst can't actually control the Citadel. He's never shown with this capability, even in ME3. Saying the Citadel is a part of him doesn't mean he can control it. But wait, the Reapers created the Citadel and mass relays, which means the Catalyst did. Why would the Catalyst create a platform on which to house himself that he couldn't control?

Explanation: He didn't actually create the Citadel, the Leviathans did, and placed restrictions on his ability to access the Citadel's control systems. Okay, but this is merely inferred to avoid a plot hole, not explicitly stated or implied.

And so on.

This is a little baroque. Why not just say that the prothean scientists broke his control over the Citadel's systems? Vigil had no actual knowledge of what the scientists found on the Citadel, or what they did, so there's nothing to retcon.

[Only-Twin]

Right, the concepts started then, but the whole idea of the cycles wasn't really explained in detail. Just that they happened. Things didn't get seriously messed up until after Drew left.

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...
This is a little baroque. Why not just say that the prothean scientists broke his control over the Citadel's systems? Vigil had no actual knowledge of what the scientists found on the Citadel, or what they did, so there's nothing to retcon.

That would imply that Sovereign was the first vanguard to call the Reapers (since it would be unneeded before Prothean sabotage, which would be post-initial Reaper invasion); but if that were the case, how would the prothean scientist that programmed Vigil know at all about Sovereign's role as a "vanguard" to tell the Reapers when a cycle was ready, since it didn't happen in the Prothean cycle (that was the Vigil convo that explained Sovereign's role, wasn't it?)

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 décembre 2013 - 06:24 .