1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Various analogies have beeen used to describe the Chantry's Circle system for mages. Most of them don't hit the mark for one reason or the other. Here's what I think is a more fitting one:

Living as a mage in a Circle is like living in a totalitarian police state you are unable to leave. That means that all or nearly all of your life, public or private, is circumscribed and heavily influenced by the ruling ideology, and systems of control are established to ensure that you toe the line. In some cases, free expression is "tolerated" because it serves as a safety valve - thus, a faction like the Libertarians is tolerated (Leliana mentions this in DA2) - but that can be taken away at the whim of the system's rulers. Circles appear to have somewhat different cultures regarding the level of control, but near-constant surveillance appears to be a common quality.

Such a system creates a pervasive atmosphere of fear. Technically, there is something like the "rule of law", but that doesn't mean much if different laws apply to different kinds of people, the laws mainly benefit those in power and abuses by the executive forces, while being illegal, are less likely to have consequences for those who commit them.

How does it feel to live in such a system? If you haven't been to that kind of place in RL, you will not know. You will not know how it feels not to be able to step out of your house/apartment/room without becoming an object of constant surveillance. You will not know how it feels to walk past stations and offices of the ruling system (which you only do if you must). You will not know how much that pervasive fear sucks out of you. Regardless of any actual abuses, the defining characteristic of such a place is fear - fear of coming to the attention of the system or of becoming the victim of some abuse by a person in power, because either laws or practices - or both - usually make sure that you have no recourse against representatives of the system regardless of what happens. If necessary, they'll denounce you as an enemy of the system.

Templar supporters often mention that mages are living comparably well in the Circles, but how much does that mean in such a system? They also say that they have a good education - a system-compliant one no doubt, dominated by technical knowledge about magic because that's indispensable along with a good dose of Chantry indoctrination occasionally resulting in religion-induced self-loathing like in the case of Keili (the praying girl in DAO's mage origin). 

So you see, while abuses of power do happen as they do everywhere, they're not the primary reason why the Circle system is intolerable. It's main intolerable quality is that it creates an atmosphere of fear - and with it, the "slow smothering of the spirit" I mentioned in Eorlin Amell's mage manifesto. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[Plaintiff]

I don't think it's an analogy. The Circle is a totalitarian police state. I use other analogies, imperfect as they are, because people already fail to recognise police states in the real world as it is.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[The Elder King]

This thread is going to be fun to read.
I don't want to enter in the discussion about the Circle being or not a totalitarian police state. I agree about the atmosphere of fear, though it's not my major problem with the Chantry Circle system.

[Goneaviking]

This seems about right to me.

[ignoreality]

As someone who has lived in a communist country, I want to say, the OP is spot on.

The Circle, the Chantry, the Qun, I hate them all with equal passion. I don't think there's one organization in Thedas that doesn't feel deeply wrong to me.

Come to think of it, perhaps this analogy is why it was always quite cathartic, killing Templars in DA.

[Jaison1986]

ignoreality wrote...

As someone who has lived in a communist country, I want to say, the OP is spot on.

The Circle, the Chantry, the Qun, I hate them all with equal passion. I don't think there's one organization in Thedas that doesn't feel deeply wrong to me.

Come to think of it, perhaps this analogy is why it was always quite cathartic, killing Templars in DA.

That's why I think Thedas needs a completely new world order. Wipe out all these biased and opressive leaderships. The Chantry, the Qun, the magisters. All of them do terrible things to the people. No more slavery from Tevinter, no more brainwashing from the Qunari and no more segregation from the Chantry. All of that needs to change.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Did this need to be a thread, I thought everyone already knew that?

[ignoreality]

Jaison1986 wrote...

ignoreality wrote...

As someone who has lived in a communist country, I want to say, the OP is spot on.

The Circle, the Chantry, the Qun, I hate them all with equal passion. I don't think there's one organization in Thedas that doesn't feel deeply wrong to me.

Come to think of it, perhaps this analogy is why it was always quite cathartic, killing Templars in DA.

That's why I think Thedas needs a completely new world order. Wipe out all these biased and opressive leaderships. The Chantry, the Qun, the magisters. All of them do terrible things to the people. No more slavery from Tevinter, no more brainwashing from the Qunari and no more segregation from the Chantry. All of that needs to change.

Actually that's a valid plot summary for DA:I. Someone powerful is fed up with this **** and is uprooting the world's order in any way they can, so that from the chaos something new can be born.

Suddenly I want my Inquisitor to stand aside and watch. Well, and perhaps work on minimizing death toll.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Thedas needs a revolution, or a series of revolutions.

[Vulpe]

 Indeed, The Chantry needs a reform. While I didn't catch the pre-revolution times, I learned enough about communism from people that lived under it and I can say that in some matters the current Circle policy resembles it.

Still, mages are having a better life than the ones that lived under communism.

They are educated, but they don't go through the personality cult and they are not taught from a young age to kiss their leaders on the back cheeks.

They also have always access to food and do not have to stand hours on a line to get their ration of meat for the month.

Also, they don't have to work the fields or do any physical effort. The just have to learn to master their powers and they have access to knowledge that many don't have, but wished to. They don't have to do any work at all - washing clothes, cleaning the dust, making food et cetera

Despite all the traumas they might face , they still have in many casses a better life than many peasants.
They are singing birds trapped in a golden cage.

As for the "slow smothering of the spirit", that is caused by the zelots that think they have the right to treat humans ( and elves ) as trash just because they were born in a certain way. The recruting system when it comes to templars is very flawed - let's recruit fanatics that will listen to all our orders than individuals with a strong moral code and that are able to make the ultimate sacrifice to save the lives of mages and non-mages alike and to stop dangerous individuals.

Do to the current preferences of the Chantry recruiters, many templars are more like jailers than guards and protectors of the mages and non-mages.

Mages are indeed dangerous, but that doesn't mean that the many must be punished for the mistakes and evil doings of the few. Still there sould always exist a group of special trained men and women that are able in intervene in situations when a mage goes in a killing spree and eliminate the thread as fast as possible to prevent destruction and the deaths of individuals ( no matter what race  they are or if they are or are not able to cast spells ).

Both parts need to change - The Chantry the most. It urgently needs a reforme As for the mages, they should understand that they have to be monitored because of the risks involved and they should cooperate with the authorities ( that if the templars change as well ).

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[ignoreality]

JulianWellpit wrote...
Still, mages are having a better life than the ones that lived under communism.

They are educated, but they don't go through the personality cult and they are not taught from a young age to kiss their leaders on the back cheeks.

Educated, hah. They are taught that magic is evil, that they're cursed with it, that they're a danger, that they're worse than a 'normal' person.  It other words, they are constantly fed lies and, yes, brainwashed. During mage origin story in DA:O, there was that young woman praying in the chantry, who, when talked to, rambled about how she hated her magic and she was an abomination in the eyes of the Maker. That was extreme brainwashing.

They also have always access to food and do not have to stand hours on a line to get their ration of meat for the month.

Queues are irrelevant. In a totalitarian state, you get what the state deigns to give you, you live as you're told to, and you better not think about getting more. 

Also, they don't have to work the fields or do any physical effort. The just have to learn to master their powers and they have access to knowledge that many don't have, but wished to. They don't have to do any work at all - washing clothes, cleaning the dust, making food et cetera

Totalitarianism isn't about working the fields or physical effort. It's, essentially, about doing what you're told to and being brainwashed into believing it's the best way to live. Which is precisely what the Chantry-controlled Circles are about. 

[Commander Kurt]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Still there sould always exist a group of special trained men and women that are able in intervene in situations when a mage goes in a killing spree and eliminate the thread as fast as possible to prevent destruction and the deaths of individuals ( no matter what race  they are or if they are or are not able to cast spells ).

No need. After the first one, locals will simply slay any child that shows magical ability (or, you know, that someone claims shows magical ability).

You didn't have witchhunts where you come from? They where a big thing here, and that's in a reality where no one actually did perform magic and/or go on killing sprees.

[Vulpe]

ignoreality wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...
Still, mages are having a better life than the ones that lived under communism.

They are educated, but they don't go through the personality cult and they are not taught from a young age to kiss their leaders on the back cheeks.

Educated, hah. They are taught that magic is evil, that they're cursed with it, that they're a danger, that they're worse than a 'normal' person.  It other words, they are constantly fed lies and, yes, brainwashed. During mage origin story in DA:O, there was that young woman praying in the chantry, who, when talked to, rambled about how she hated her magic and she was an abomination in the eyes of the Maker. That was extreme brainwashing.

They also have always access to food and do not have to stand hours on a line to get their ration of meat for the month.

Queues are irrelevant. In a totalitarian state, you get what the state deigns to give you, you live as you're told to, and you better not think about getting more. 

Also, they don't have to work the fields or do any physical effort. The just have to learn to master their powers and they have access to knowledge that many don't have, but wished to. They don't have to do any work at all - washing clothes, cleaning the dust, making food et cetera

Totalitarianism isn't about working the fields or physical effort. It's, essentially, about doing what you're told to and being brainwashed into believing it's the best way to live. Which is precisely what the Chantry-controlled Circles are about. 

1) That's why I said the Chantry needs a reform. The zelots treat mages as monsters and makes them believe they're monsters. For that they don't get any sort of punishment. + some people are just insane. I'm not denying that she wasn't made to believe that she's a monster, but the other mages seemed fine. She could have been more receptive and... well... a little insane.

2) In this case queues are relevant. Many people would stand hours an hours on a line only to find out that they are owt of rations. There was no guarantee that they will be able to get what they needed. As for mages, they are always feed and starvation is not one of their worries. When it comes to the peasants in Thedas, I don't think all of them have this luxury.

3) In those times, everyone had to work. If you didn't have a job, you would have been assigned to one. The only concern of a mage is to train so that he/she can pass his/hers Harrowing. 

Commander Kurt wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Still there sould always exist a group of special trained men and women that are able in intervene in situations when a mage goes in a killing spree and eliminate the thread as fast as possible to prevent destruction and the deaths of individuals ( no matter what race  they are or if they are or are not able to cast spells ).

No need. After the first one, locals will simply slay any child that shows magical ability (or, you know, that someone claims shows magical ability).

You didn't have witchhunts where you come from? They where a big thing here, and that's in a reality where no one actually did perform magic and/or go on killing sprees.

I must admit. It's my fault I wasn't more elaborate in my comment and forgot to mention some things. 

That force should also guarantee the protection of mages. A crime, no matter if the victim was a mage or a non mage and if the murderer was or not a mage, should be punished.

And for your final question : No, we didn't have witch hunts. Orthodox christians are more tolerant than the other groups ( yes , I know the situation in Russia regarding homosexuality. It's unacceptable. What I'm saying is that compared to what other christian branches did, we were pretty calm and tranquil)

Also, we romanians are usually a more tolerant bunch ( Not all of us. We have our share of nut jobs as everyone else)

During our entire history my people were separated by ouside powers of different religions. The hungarians and the turks more precisely ( among others). We always had to fight for our freedom, our lands were used as battlefields by the other powers and they always tried to take our lands. The Wallachians had to pay tribute to the sultan and this tribute leaved the country in a poor state, the ones from Transylvania were treated as second class citizens by the hungarians and the only way to get some rights has to convert to catholicism and the ones from Moldavia were always attacked by the tatars - a branch of the mongols.

From what I know, the use of herbs for medicinal purposes was encouraged.

Maybe there were a few accusations of witchcrafts in Transylvania do to our western brothers policy regarding "magic" and because the hungarians brought some members of the teutonic order in there and we know what the teutons did in Lithuania, so I am not denying it 100%.

In conclusion - I think we were too occupied trying to unify our lands,mentain our religion, customs,national identity and basically survive as a nation to have time for such things.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Ieldra]

hhh89 wrote...
This thread is going to be fun to read.
I don't want to enter in the discussion about the Circle being or not a totalitarian police state. I agree about the atmosphere of fear, though it's not my major problem with the Chantry Circle system.

What is that major problem if I may ask?

I have fundamental ideological differences with the Chantry, but ideologies on their own are intangible. You can create systems of oppression with almost anything, and on the other hand, preventive measures against possession don't have to be that oppressive. 

[General TSAR]

Wrong.

Circles are quarantine colonies.

[Steelcan]

When the residents of the Circle run the risk of turning into monstrosities and wreaking untold damage you have to ask yourself if such surveillance is necessary.

That's a question for another thread though. You won't hear an argument from me about Totalitarianism because you are right that it is, but is it unwarranted?

[Goneaviking]

JulianWellpit wrote...
Also, they don't have to work the fields or do any physical effort. The just have to learn to master their powers and they have access to knowledge that many don't have, but wished to. They don't have to do any work at all - washing clothes, cleaning the dust, making food et cetera

Aside from the tranquil I don't recall seeing or hearing about any servants in the mage towers. Depending on if you think that the lobotomization means that the victim is no longer a mage because they can no longer access their abilities it may well be true that they don't have to do any work at all. 

Of course the persistent risk of being lobotomized and degraded from the status of non-consensual guest to de facto mindless slave might not make for a situation that could objectively be described as easier, or preferable, to that of your average Thedan field hand.

[Lord Raijin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

How does it feel to live in such a system? If you haven't been to that kind of place in RL, you will not know. You will not know how it feels not to be able to step out of your house/apartment/room without becoming an object of constant surveillance. You will not know how it feels to walk past stations and offices of the ruling system (which you only do if you must). You will not know how much that pervasive fear sucks out of you. Regardless of any actual abuses, the defining characteristic of such a place is fear - fear of coming to the attention of the system or of becoming the victim of some abuse by a person in power, because either laws or practices - or both - usually make sure that you have no recourse against representatives of the system regardless of what happens. If necessary, they'll denounce you as an enemy of the system.

As someone who had spent time in a Psychiatric hospital (Both voluntary and involuntary: Private and public) I know exactly how it feels to live the Circle life. I can relate to what the mages must go through, and I could reason with them. Being locked away and having your freedom taken away is not fun at all. It is not fun to have someone watch you at every angle of the way. It is not fun to be taken away from your families only to see them at the hospitals convenience. At some hospitals you only get to see your love ones once a week during visiting hours. I know how it feels to be punished for expressing your disapproval because it happen to me. In the psychiatric hospital the doctors are right and you are wrong. That is just how it goes, and if you even question their decision of treatment, well you become a problematic for the staffs and therefor you get a higher dose of medication that is strong enough to take down an elephant. If the doctor thinks you're the right candidate for an electroconvulsive therapy, well guess what? The doctor can pursue into frying your brain without you signing a medical consent form that will allow the doctor to conduct the treatment on you.

If you want to get a RL feeling for what the mages have to go through without committing a serious crime that will go on your record.... Go to your local Psychiatric hospital and admit yourself into their care.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
When the residents of the Circle run the risk of turning into monstrosities and wreaking untold damage you have to ask yourself if such surveillance is necessary.

That's a question for another thread though. You won't hear an argument from me about Totalitarianism because you are right that it is, but is it unwarranted?

I think even if you accept some basic elements of the system, there is a lot of room for improvement:

(1) I don't think the constant surveillance and intrusion into mages' lives is necessary. Templars can't spot possession before it becomes obvious anyway, so what's the use?
(2) Also, the phrasing used to describe this is "templars watch for signs of corruption" (DAO mage origin). This indicates there is an ideological bias that mages have a higher innate predisposition towards evil than others, in line with the Chantry's tenet that "magic is a corrupting influence in the world" (WoT I). This contributes to the oppressive quality of the system.
(3) Lastly, the templar recruitment policy contributes to the oppressive quality of the system because they're chosen for ideological fervor.

In other words, the fact it's the Chantry who runs the system creates a state of things which goes far beyond mere "containment of possible out-of-control magic".

[Commander Kurt]

JulianWellpit wrote...

I must admit. It's my fault I wasn't more elaborate in my comment and forgot to mention some things. 

That force should also guarantee the protection of mages. A crime, no matter if the victim was a mage or a non mage and if the murderer was or not a mage, should be punished.

Thanks for the history lesson, it was really interesting.  

All mages slain by the public were using blood magic according to several witnesses. The mages family, maybe some friends, might give a different testimony (although that's VERY doubtful, they would probably need to leave their home if they did), but who's to say what really happened?

Even if you manage to convict someone for murdering a mage, people protecting their own families will take that risk and slay the next child showing signs. There's a small chance they'll pay with their lives, but their families will be safe.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: I thought your stance was not based on morality?

That being said, I'd love for the mages to be freed and have no institutions of education sanctioned by the state and be forced to be common laborers.

What Pro-Mages want - is for mages to be freed, and then be celebrated and handed everything because: Mages.

Of course, the point would be entirely moot for me. Were I king of a Thedosian state - the Circle would already be state run. Learning militant magic without a license would be punishable by steep fines - practicing militant magic would result in execution.

My soldiers would be decked out in anti-magic runes with perhaps a Special Forces of trained templars to deal with mages.

And the Circle would be state owned and run. Mages would not be required to enter the Circle - but all mages who do would be required to serve the state for the rest of their lives.

Non-state run Circles (or institutions of magical learning) would be prohibited.  You want to teach unregulated magic?  Go somewhere else. 

Also - mundanes would be allowed, and promoted, within these instituions.  Dagna knows more about magic than any mage shown yet on Thedas. 

The rest of the mages can do what normal people do... struggle.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 décembre 2013 - 01:58 .

[Ieldra]

@Lord Raijin:
While I didn't experience anything that extreme, I probably wouldn't have been able to describe the Circle system as being very similar to a totalitarian police state without my memory of a visit to East Germany back in 1985 before the revolution. I can say with full knowledge that constant surveillance by an ideologically antagonistic executive force is a problem of its own - and as a visitor, I was one of the privileged people who could leave.

Getting back to the Circle system: even if you accept the necessity of a similar system, any executive force should limit itself to containing out-of-control magic. There is no need for constant surveillance and ideologically biased education (aka brainwashing. dare I say that this education is tainted).

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Ieldra2: I thought your stance was not based on morality?

Any statement of preference which goes beyond "I just want it" has a moral component to it because whatever your goal, somewhere between your immediate goals and your ultimate ends, you'll have to give a reason why these ends are preferable to others. Even the only *really* ultimate goal - survival - is open to the question "why is this preferable to death?"

That being said, I'd love for the mages to be freed and have no institutions of education sanctioned by the state and be forced to be common laborers.

You mean they would need to use their magic in ways that help them make a living? I would not at all be opposed to that. That mages need to learn to control their power remains an undisputed necessity though.

What Pro-Mages want - is for mages to be freed, and then be celebrated and handed everything because: Mages.

You have a bad habit of telling people what they think. My main Warden hates undeserved praise. People should be loved or hated for what they do, not for what they are. Yes, he also wants personal ascension, but what that means for him is independent from others' esteem.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 décembre 2013 - 02:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

British citizens are under surveilance almost 80% of their lives. I don't recall the British complaining that they feel unsafe because of this surveilance... Some of them sure feel their privacy is invaded, but then again there is no such thing as privacy in public spaces..

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

British citizens are under surveilance almost 80% of their lives. I don't recall the British complaining that they feel unsafe because of this surveilance... Some of them sure feel their privacy is invaded, but then again there is no such thing as privacy in public spaces..

Interesting point, and one I find especially relevant, considering the same debate is occuring in America at the moment with the NSA. Upholding individual liberties and lose the chance to catch terrorists, or let the government increase surveillance and gain a better to chance to find terrorists.

Modifié par eluvianix, 03 décembre 2013 - 02:33 .