1858 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

Wait, really? And when was this? Do you mean she dismissed them from the castle when it became clear Connor had magic, or did she send them to search for the Ashes?

She sent them on the quest to find the Urn of Sacred Ashes, yes.

Wait, so, basically she knew her kid had magic and still thought sending the only soldiers equipped to deal with magical threats away from the village to look for a mything object was a good idea.
...
Well, that's a good argument for a blood sacrifice if I've ever heard one. She is criminally negligent and deserves to die!

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:33 .

[Silfren]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Really? A totalitarian police state?


Do you not even know what that means and are going for sound bite, or are you obscenely delusional?

Given that quite a few people agree with the statement, including a few pro-Circle supporters, I daresay there's some considerable merit  to the idea.

Where have you been, anyway?

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
How can it be said to not be effective? You speak as if the experiment has already been tried, with mages living in the community and templars being stationed in those communities to address the possible abuses of magic.  The reality is quite otherwise: those templars stationed with Chantries weren't patrolling the streets or working with local guards as specialized forces, and the mages within any given locale were taken away to the Circles and watched by templars in a different location.  In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

It was; there were at least 3 ages between the creation of the Chantry and the inception of the Circle and it was still deemed necessary.
Simple logic. It's the fact that the number of mages amongst populations is diminished to a hidden few that allows Templars to react to them more efficiently; increase the number of mages and you increase the number of threats Templars must react to as well as the number of people exposed to the threats.
Despite all of these Templars present at every major population center, Meredith's sister still became possessed and killed over seventy people. Now, imagine if mage kids in her circunstances were a common and perfectly acceptable ocurrence.

The Templars in the cities are a back up in case there are apostates outside of the Circles; plus they're likely meant to monitor for kids whose powers are just beginning to surface. They're not meant to nor can they be expected to effectively police hundreds of mages that have potential victims wherever they look (remember that magical abuse can be very subtle); much less police isolated villages. It's better to just keep the mages away from the population centers in the first place.

There seems to be some inconsistency surrounding the formation of Circles, among some of which is the implied suggestion that mages agreed to a markedly different, less oppressive kind of Circle in the beginning that is far removed from what we see is the case during the Ninth Age.  I'm not convinced that they were formed because it was objectively concluded that mages were deemed too dangerous to be free.

Modifié par Silfren, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[Volus Warlord]

Silfren wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Really? A totalitarian police state?


Do you not even know what that means and are going for sound bite, or are you obscenely delusional?

Given that quite a few people agree with the statement, including a few pro-Circle supporters, I daresay there's some considerable merit  to the idea.

Where have you been, anyway?

I've been other places...

And totalitarian police state is a horrendous comparison.

[MisterJB]

I don't recall any such suggestion.

[SgtSteel91]

Volus Warlord wrote...

I've been other places...

And totalitarian police state is a horrendous comparison.

So what would you compare it to? A University with strict security where students and faculty cannot leave? A prison?

[Volus Warlord]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

I've been other places...

And totalitarian police state is a horrendous comparison.

So what would you compare it to? A University with strict security where students and faculty cannot leave? A prison?

A special needs boarding school.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:45 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Volus Warlord wrote...

A special needs boarding school.

Not sure if comparing magical ability to mental and physical deficiencies....

[MisterJB]

MisterJB wrote...

I don't recall any such suggestion.

In fact, what I recall was the mages agreeing to practice magic away from normal people while being ruled by a council of Enchanters and watched over by Templars. Which is what was happening until this war and was the opposite of what happened beforehand. Mages couldn't practice magic but where allowed to live amongst normal people.

It seems to me the mages will accept agreements but only until they get tired of them if they don't meet their unrealistic expectations of how the world should treat them. They want to have their cake and to eat it too.
Entitled brats.

[SgtSteel91]

Lebdood wrote...

Not sure if comparing magical ability to mental and physical deficiencies....

Well they are special what with having magical abilities and they have a need in mastering and dealing with that ability...

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:50 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: I have never made any choice in my life in full knowledge of what it would mean. If you have, you are lucky.

To nobody in particular: I am not saying that Tranquility is preferable at all. I am say, I prefer a more diverse concept of the topic over the black and white issue some people make it out to be.

Owain was specifically presented as "Pro-Tranquil". I do not care what the argument is as to "why", because that's entirely conjecture on the part of the person making the argument. It is fact that 1) Owain is presented as not being opposed to Tranqility PRIOR to being made Tranquil. He says so. 2) That the Codex states some mages choose Tranquility.

I'm not interested in headcanon, or what I would theoretically do if I were in a world of mages and demons (though I have resorted to that more often than I'd like). I'm interested in looking at what is presented, and I appreciate the variety presented at certain times.

[Silfren]

[quote]Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I have never made any choice in my life in full knowledge of what it would mean. If you have, you are lucky.[/quote]

Right.  You've never, ever, ever, ever in your life made a decision without some knowledge of what you were doing or getting into, and I'm somehow unique and special and lucky in this regard.  I don't believe you, sorry. 

I don't know what the hell you're even trying to say here, unless you're trying to imply that imaking an informed decision refers to having the precognitive ability to know what the result of your choices will be in the future, which, if true, has zero bearing on this discussion because it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I or Plaintiff were saying.  If you mean something else, then see above.  I don't buy for a moment that you've never in your life made any decision at all without some knowledge of what was involved, and if you did, that doesn't speak to my being lucky, but rather to you being very bad at making decisions.
[/quote]

Modifié par Silfren, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:59 .

[Volus Warlord]

Lebdood wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

A special needs boarding school.

Not sure if comparing magical ability to mental and physical deficiencies....

Not sure if too dense to understand the concept..

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
But for the purposes of your question, the main point is de-centralization. The Circles (and thus, the Templars) are just too isolated. Ideally, there would be, at the very least, a significant magic-policing body in every major population centre, similar to how police stations and fire stations operate in our own world.

But there already is. There is a Chantry present in every major population centre and every Chantry will always have Templar to guard it and respond to threats to the population.
Denerim had Templars, Lothering had Templars, Kirkwall had Templars, Amaranthine had Templars, Val-Royeaux had Templars. Truthfully, the only major population centre we've seen without a number of Templars was Redcliff and it's possible they were present but died defending the village.
It's just not effective.

A magic-policing body free of religious bias, which the Chantry, by its very nature, is not.

And the templars weren't present.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 décembre 2013 - 01:11 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: And if the Templars were secular? Do you begrudge nations the means to defend themselves from magical threats (I don't believe you've ever said as much.)

You said you'd fight regulations by secular bodies you deemed unworthy.

What is "worthy" and what isn't?

I've presented a theoretical state where martial magics were outlawed outside of regulated licensing. Would that be "prejudice" or "prudence"?

What if mages were allowed to be totally free - were trained to resist demons - but were forbidden from learning any spells?  Why "must" they be able to level whole towns to be "free"?  (again, you didn't say the did).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 04 décembre 2013 - 01:17 .

[Bleachrude]

Another apsect is that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Secular nations that create their own teaching apparatus to replace the circle are most likely going to want compensation...the Chantry currently provides everything at no cost to the various nations but if Antiva for example has to provide new taxes to support their circle, you better expect the government of Antiva (aka the crows) to expect something in return.

Currently, there's seems to be nothing that a mage HAS to do. They get education, boarding etc all of which while not on the level of the noble class of their respective nations definitely is a step higher than the average commoner.. This isn't something tha tis feasible for a singular nation, I imagein that since the Chantry is a continent wide organization, it can **** (albeit slowly), resources around to where they are needed, which means that mages would have to be beholden to the secular govenment in some form.

Furthermore, there's also the fact that many of those nations the nobility will expect citizens to know their place. If the arl of West Hills needs troops, any mage living in West Hills can't say "I'm not going".

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
But for the purposes of your question, the main point is de-centralization. The Circles (and thus, the Templars) are just too isolated. Ideally, there would be, at the very least, a significant magic-policing body in every major population centre, similar to how police stations and fire stations operate in our own world.

But there already is. There is a Chantry present in every major population centre and every Chantry will always have Templar to guard it and respond to threats to the population.
Denerim had Templars, Lothering had Templars, Kirkwall had Templars, Amaranthine had Templars, Val-Royeaux had Templars. Truthfully, the only major population centre we've seen without a number of Templars was Redcliff and it's possible they were present but died defending the village.
It's just not effective.

A magic-policing body free of religious bias, which the Chantry, by its very nature, is not.

And the templars weren't present.

There were clearly Templars in Redcliffe. If they weren't doing anything productive, that's a separate problem. Anyway, the bit of your argument he was responding to was that the organization needed to be decentralized, rather than whether or not it needed to be secular.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: And if the Templars were secular? Do you begrudge nations the means to defend themselves from magical threats (I don't believe you've ever said as much.)

You said you'd fight regulations by secular bodies you deemed unworthy.

What is "worthy" and what isn't?

I've presented a theoretical state where martial magics were outlawed outside of regulated licensing. Would that be "prejudice" or "prudence"?

What if mages were allowed to be totally free - were trained to resist demons - but were forbidden from learning any spells?  Why "must" they be able to level whole towns to be "free"?  (again, you didn't say the did).

Well preventing them from learning spells has nothing to do with freedom, but I would be against it anyway, because it short-sightedly denies society the manifold goods that can be done by magic, which is another major problem I have with the system as-is.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: I did state "regulated licensing". We're talking about combat spells.

Is it something you'd promote a violent rebellion over and the slaughtering of the secular noble family that put this particular law into place?

I'm just curious where you draw the line for violent beheading of law enforcement you disagree with.

The Templars are rather black and white simple. Though I personally wouldn't just slaughter any Templar that surrendered - you might, and I'm not interested in that. You clearly hold everyone culpable for mage oppression.

I'm curious - what level of "law" are you willing to submit to?

[dragonflight288]

Volus Warlord wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

I've been other places...

And totalitarian police state is a horrendous comparison.

So what would you compare it to? A University with strict security where students and faculty cannot leave? A prison?

A special needs boarding school.

Where the prefects have the right to kill the students.

[Plaintiff]

Bleachrude wrote...

Another apsect is that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Secular nations that create their own teaching apparatus to replace the circle are most likely going to want compensation...the Chantry currently provides everything at no cost to the various nations but if Antiva for example has to provide new taxes to support their circle, you better expect the government of Antiva (aka the crows) to expect something in return.

Currently, there's seems to be nothing that a mage HAS to do. They get education, boarding etc all of which while not on the level of the noble class of their respective nations definitely is a step higher than the average commoner.. This isn't something tha tis feasible for a singular nation, I imagein that since the Chantry is a continent wide organization, it can **** (albeit slowly), resources around to where they are needed, which means that mages would have to be beholden to the secular govenment in some form.

Furthermore, there's also the fact that many of those nations the nobility will expect citizens to know their place. If the arl of West Hills needs troops, any mage living in West Hills can't say "I'm not going".

Actually, the mages fund themselves, at least partly, through the sale of potions and magical objects. If they weren't forcibly isolated, it's possible that they could fully fund themselves, and even pay taxes their respective governments

And even if we ignore the expectation placed on mages that they will study in order to teach the next generation of mages, they have, in fact, been called upon by the Chantry to fight in their religious wars, most notably against the Qunari. So it's not like they just laze around.

Absolutely mages ought to be able to be called on to serve their communities, just like any person. They could set up clinics, or provide useful enchantments that make daily life easier, or serve in the guard, do bodyguard work for dignitaries and travelling merchants... pretty much anything.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

I've been other places...

And totalitarian police state is a horrendous comparison.

So what would you compare it to? A University with strict security where students and faculty cannot leave? A prison?

A special needs boarding school.

Where the prefects have the right to kill the students.

Said right being largely limited to the circumstances under which a man on the street would have the right to kill another man on the street anyway.

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
How
can it be said to not be effective? You speak as if the experiment has
already been tried, with mages living in the community and templars
being stationed in those communities to address the possible abuses of
magic.  The reality is quite otherwise: those templars stationed with
Chantries weren't patrolling the streets or working with local guards as
specialized forces, and the mages within any given locale were taken
away to the Circles and watched by templars in a different location.  In
Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars
away.

It was; there were at least 3 ages between the
creation of the Chantry and the inception of the Circle and it was still
deemed necessary.
Simple logic. It's the fact that the number of
mages amongst populations is diminished to a hidden few that allows
Templars to react to them more efficiently; increase the number of mages
and you increase the number of threats Templars must react to as well
as the number of people exposed to the threats.
Despite all of these
Templars present at every major population center, Meredith's sister
still became possessed and killed over seventy people. Now, imagine if
mage kids in her circunstances were a common and perfectly acceptable
ocurrence.

The Templars in the cities are a back up in case there
are apostates outside of the Circles; plus they're likely meant to
monitor for kids whose powers are just beginning to surface. They're not
meant to nor can they be expected to effectively police hundreds of
mages that have potential victims wherever they look (remember that
magical abuse can be very subtle); much less police isolated villages.
It's better to just keep the mages away from the population centers in
the first place.

There seems to be some inconsistency
surrounding the formation of Circles, among some of which is the implied
suggestion that mages agreed to a markedly different, less oppressive
kind of Circle in the beginning that is far removed from what we see is
the case during the Ninth Age.  I'm not convinced that they were formed
because it was objectively concluded that mages were deemed too
dangerous to be free.

I would like to add onto something here. By using a codex.

History of the Circle



It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more
successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do
something. Unfortunately, the Chantry
of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did
not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic
to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every
chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps
occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.
I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.
It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux,
in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded
themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia
II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars
discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while
negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth
from the loft.
The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside
of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the
Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal
society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own
closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

I would draw our attention to the last paragraph, where the mages would be run by a council of their own enchanters AND the templars.

I would also point out that in the codex Right of Annulment, we know the templars didn't have the power or authority to launch an annulment until well-after the Circles were established, so until that point the mages and templars had more-or-less equal power.

I'm not sure about the Right of Tranquility, but I'm pretty sure the templars didn't have the authority to force tranquility on mages at the beginning of the circle system either.

Based on this history, written by a Chantry scholar, that talks of mages being given the right to practice magic freely so long as they do so away from mundanes and under the eye of the templars, it becomes apparent that the templars and the Chantry were never intended to have all the power over mages that developed over time.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: I did state "regulated licensing". We're talking about combat spells.

Is it something you'd promote a violent rebellion over and the slaughtering of the secular noble family that put this particular law into place?

I'm just curious where you draw the line for violent beheading of law enforcement you disagree with.

The Templars are rather black and white simple. Though I personally wouldn't just slaughter any Templar that surrendered - you might, and I'm not interested in that. You clearly hold everyone culpable for mage oppression.

I'm curious - what level of "law" are you willing to submit to?

What is a "combat" spell? Summoning lightning could fry a person's brain, but it could also power machines that revolutionise the Thedosian way of life. Fireballs could roast people to death, but they could also power steam engines for fast travel. Ice spells could freeze people to death, but they could also keep food fresh on long journeys.

Obviously mages shouldn't be allowed to attack people whenever they please, but so many spells have potential combat applications that you might as well outlaw magic altogether, and put us back at square one.

Not to mention "combat" spells might be needed in the event of war with the Qunari, or with Tevinter, who won't hesitate to use any and every benefit magic can give them.

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

I've been other places...

And totalitarian police state is a horrendous comparison.

So what would you compare it to? A University with strict security where students and faculty cannot leave? A prison?

A special needs boarding school.

Where the prefects have the right to kill the students.

Said right being largely limited to the circumstances under which a man on the street would have the right to kill another man on the street anyway.

Not completely.

There is no set oversight committee or standards the templars are held to. It changes based on the Knight-Commander of the individual Circle. One Circle may be harsher on its templars and hold them to a higher standard, and others (Kirkwall) allow those templars/prefects to rape, murder, lobotomize and emotionally neuter students/mages without fear of reprisal or consequences.

The fact that there is no standard set in stone for how templars should behave, in additition to all the measures of observations (there is next to no privacy whatsoever in the Circle's, and only the First Enchanter of Ferelden's circle even had a door,) the templars have near unlmited power over the mages lives, can kill them without a trial and without fear of reprisal, and hold all power over life, death, comfort, and set the rules mages must abide (talking to civilians=flogging, etc,), I believe saying the Circle's are comparable to a totiltarian police-state is perfectly applicable. Many templars and templar supporters only have the best of intentions, but it is what it is. Might as well call a spade a spade because there is no getting around how few rights mages actually have in the Circles.