1858 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

In the British Isles it isn't so much about terrorism as much as it is just about common crime. Common crimes (muggings robberies etc.) were so high, that the surveilance system was installled in all major cities, and crime took a steep nosedive. Muggings and assaults that previous would have gone unsolved are now solved expediently.

If you compare the British system with the STASI system of East Germany, you can see the clear difference even though there are similar approaches. In the British Isles the surveilance are for the purpose of fighting crime and the protection of the people. In East Germany it was for the sake of surveilance and to protect the state. Very major differences.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't understand what is that bi***** about mages pick that fate by themselves if am not wrong they got what they deserved selling their lifes to please others.Mages are too weak to win so they will share the fate of the loser mage wouldn't even handle ferelden army i don't even mention others. IF single mage manages to won his freedom then he deserves that because he erned that if he is too weak well he brought that on himself.

Would i acept being templars and chantry wh*** no hell no but again mages brought that on themselves they sold their freedom for safety well in theory because they don't have neither in practice their choice some peoples just like live in illusion like leliana.  

 

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
British citizens are under surveilance almost 80% of their lives. I don't recall the British complaining that they feel unsafe because of this surveilance... Some of them sure feel their privacy is invaded, but then again there is no such thing as privacy in public spaces..

That is, among other things, because (1) the surveillance isn't done by an ideologically antagonistic authority, (2) there is rule of law and representatives of the executive authority have no de facto legal immunity, and (3) there is the usual division of powers which drastically reduces the abuse of authority.

I think the importance of (1) can't be overstated. While I wouldn't like being under surveillance most of the time in public places, it would not necessarily drive me towards rebellion, even less if I had reasonable trust that public safety was the only objective of this measure. However, I would feel very different about things if the government was run by religious fundamentalists who objected to my sexual orientation, my tendency to be provocative against religion or other aspects of my everyday behavior.

Also, one important fact is that you can't leave the Circle. If you hate living in Britain because of the surveillance, you can move elsewhere. The mere knowledge that you could leave if you wanted makes it all a great deal more acceptable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 décembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

(1) Purty sure police offiercers are ideologically antagonistic towards criminals. (2) Purty sure Templars aren't legally immune, consdiering we KNOW that they aren't... (3) The only abuse surveilance can ever infer is when you invade privacy. Furthermore we again KNOW that the powers in the Circle are divided between the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

(1) Purty sure police offiercers are ideologically antagonistic towards criminals. (2) Purty sure Templars aren't legally immune, consdiering we KNOW that they aren't... (3) The only abuse surveilance can ever infer is when you invade privacy. Furthermore we again KNOW that the powers in the Circle are divided between the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.

Your number 3 varies from Circle to Circle. We have only seen 3 out of 14-15 (4 if you count the Starkhaven mages) Circles in Andrastian Thedas. Not all pairs of First Enchanters and Knight Commanders might get along like Irving and Greagoir.

Modifié par eluvianix, 03 décembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...
What is that major problem if I may ask?

I have fundamental ideological differences with the Chantry, but ideologies on their own are intangible. You can create systems of oppression with almost anything, and on the other hand, preventive measures against possession don't have to be that oppressive. 

My major problem is that there isn't an efficient control of the templars, which can abuse their power if the KC isn't good at controlling them or is an extremistic person. The Seekers are supposed to be the templars' watchers, but we don't know exactly how they work, and they never shown up in Kirkwall (where the templars are known to hold more power than they should and are extremists). 
Since my goal is to find a compromise between the rights of mages and the safety of non-mages, I support a Circle system, which have to be less oppressive than the former and with more rights for the mages, with an organization with templars abilities to watch over mages, but there should be better methods to control it than the Seekers. 
I talked a bit about my solution last year. You can check the link if you want
http://social.biowar.../index/14666109

Modifié par hhh89, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

hhh89 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
What is that major problem if I may ask?

I have fundamental ideological differences with the Chantry, but ideologies on their own are intangible. You can create systems of oppression with almost anything, and on the other hand, preventive measures against possession don't have to be that oppressive. 

My major problem is that there isn't an efficient control of the templars, which can abuse their power if the KC isn't good at controlling them or is an extremistic person. The Seekers are supposed to be the templars' watchers, but we don't know exactly how they work, and they never shown up in Kirkwall (where the templars are known to hold more power than they should and are extremists). 
Since my goal is to find a compromise between the rights of mages and the safety of non-mages, I support a Circle system, which have to be less oppressive than the former and with more rights for the mages, with an organization with templars abilities to watch over mages, but there should be better methods to control it than the Seekers. 
I talked a bit about my solution last year. You can check the link if you want
http://social.biowar.../index/14666109

Heh circles were created to be ruled by non-mages in that case by chantry there they have ultimate power.Seekers are only templars add to that they protect chantry from dangers but they don't care about mages.Practically this is how circles work only punishing mages and occasionally templars when they are danger for chantry or templars but they don't care about mages. 
In theory that what you suggesting was vision how circles supposed to work in reality chantry took power and we have what we have incompetent anc corrupted oragnisation that is incapable protect non-mages from mages and in other side they can't provide satisfy mages needs by bombarding them fear.So your theory chantry or just other non-mages have to rule mages or just mages rule themselves and someone ends with more power first see that what we have now second see tevinter.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

(1) Purty sure police offiercers are ideologically antagonistic towards criminals. (2) Purty sure Templars aren't legally immune, consdiering we KNOW that they aren't... (3) The only abuse surveilance can ever infer is when you invade privacy. Furthermore we again KNOW that the powers in the Circle are divided between the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.

Your number 3 varies from Circle to Circle. We have only seen 3 out of 14-15 (4 if you count the Starkhaven mages) Circles in Andrastian Thedas. Not all pairs of First Enchanters and Knight Commanders might get along like Irving and Greagoir.

How the two get along doesn't really change the fact of how it is supposed to be run. The Templars are NOT in charge of the Circle, they are supposed to guide and supervise. The mages are the ones who actually run the Circle from day-to-day.

[The Elder King]

The Seekers aren't only recruited from the templars ranks, and they have the role to watch over templars. It's the reason why the codex states that templars fear the Seekers.
As for my system, I have no clue why you think a second. Tevinter will come out. The mages would still hold no power over the kingdoms. And the Circles were always meant to be under the Chantry. They had the power to take certain decision by themselves, but it'd the Chantry that allowed them to have certain powers.
I do believe that no solution will hold forever, unless a plot twist makes all mages non-mages or all non-mages mages, and I don't see either happening soon.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ielda2: So, what maybe (don't want to tell you) you're saying is - I am accurate on some level (since you agreed that what I said is on your Warden's agenda), but stating it in a way you find disagreeable is a bad habit.

That people think after a revolution they're just going to be allowed to go back to their Circle towers and start studying whatever they want - is *censored in the event of over sensitivity*

If the Templars FIRST act isn't to take the Circles and destroy all magical learning - I would find it hilariously bad tactics.

Afterward - it will be a slow crawl back to equilibrium for the mages of Thedas.

I don't believe in what I call the Magetopia - where, after the noble struggle of the oppressed people (an obviously black and white story to some) there is a renaissance of learning and understanding.

This "is" fantasy - but for me, that strains credulity a bit too far.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[Iakus]

The Circle strikes me as a Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters gone horribly wrong.  It started out as a refuge for mages, where they can learn learn to control their powers and not be a threat to others.  But over the years and centuries, it turned into more of a prison.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

(1) Purty sure police offiercers are ideologically antagonistic towards criminals. (2) Purty sure Templars aren't legally immune, consdiering we KNOW that they aren't... (3) The only abuse surveilance can ever infer is when you invade privacy. Furthermore we again KNOW that the powers in the Circle are divided between the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.

Your number 3 varies from Circle to Circle. We have only seen 3 out of 14-15 (4 if you count the Starkhaven mages) Circles in Andrastian Thedas. Not all pairs of First Enchanters and Knight Commanders might get along like Irving and Greagoir.

How the two get along doesn't really change the fact of how it is supposed to be run. The Templars are NOT in charge of the Circle, they are supposed to guide and supervise. The mages are the ones who actually run the Circle from day-to-day.

I would say that in a perfect world, yes, personal feelings shouldn't change how it is to be run. But the relationship between a Knight Commander and the First Enchanter still can affect how strict the Circle is as well as its policies. I am loathe to use the Kirkwall example, but it still applies. Meredith and Orsino had a pretty antagonistic relationship towards one another, and that heavily influenced the day to day activities of the Gallows as well as its strict policies. It turned into a power struggle between the two, Orsino fighting back, and Meredith squeezing more and more every time that he did.

[Vulpe]

Goneaviking wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...
Also, they don't have to work the fields or do any physical effort. The just have to learn to master their powers and they have access to knowledge that many don't have, but wished to. They don't have to do any work at all - washing clothes, cleaning the dust, making food et cetera

Aside from the tranquil I don't recall seeing or hearing about any servants in the mage towers. Depending on if you think that the lobotomization means that the victim is no longer a mage because they can no longer access their abilities it may well be true that they don't have to do any work at all. 

Of course the persistent risk of being lobotomized and degraded from the status of non-consensual guest to de facto mindless slave might not make for a situation that could objectively be described as easier, or preferable, to that of your average Thedan field hand.

I remember a comic set in the DA setting about a mage girl who's mother was a mage and her father was a templar. This one 

There was a scene where her non-mage cousin was sent to work in the Circle kitchen. I assumend that The Circles have extra staff that are responsible with making food and keeping everything clean and working. It also sounds plausible to me.

There are a lot of people that live in there - mages and templars. Templars are warriors and I don't really see them making onion soup and I don't think that templars would let mages roam The Cicle as they please.

To chase the mages, templars would need horses and those horses would need stable workers.

I think that these workers weren't shown in the games and books yet, just as the horses haven't been shown . That doesn't mean they don't exist. They most likely are not that important.

As for the Tranquils - they might play the role of this servants, but they I doubt they are that many to completly cover all the necesities of everyone in the tower and I think that they would be wanted in other places like in the libraries organizing books, playing as secretaries for the templars and maybe The First Enchanter and the most important one - making enchantements so that The Chantry and The Circle would get some extra money.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
When the residents of the Circle run the risk of turning into monstrosities and wreaking untold damage you have to ask yourself if such surveillance is necessary.

That's a question for another thread though. You won't hear an argument from me about Totalitarianism because you are right that it is, but is it unwarranted?

I think even if you accept some basic elements of the system, there is a lot of room for improvement:

(1) I don't think the constant surveillance and intrusion into mages' lives is necessary. Templars can't spot possession before it becomes obvious anyway, so what's the use? 
(2) Also, the phrasing used to describe this is "templars watch for signs of corruption" (DAO mage origin). This indicates there is an ideological bias that mages have a higher innate predisposition towards evil than others, in line with the Chantry's tenet that "magic is a corrupting influence in the world" (WoT I). This contributes to the oppressive quality of the system.
(3) Lastly, the templar recruitment policy contributes to the oppressive quality of the system because they're chosen for ideological fervor. 

In other words, the fact it's the Chantry who runs the system creates a state of things which goes far beyond mere "containment of possible out-of-control magic". 

1) That can easely be resolved by having a permanent group of templars ready to intervene in case of need in a city or village. That would also mean that mages should get some restrictions like not been permited to live alone in the woods or any isolated place, but in Circles,villages and cities so that they can be close to their guards. 

2) Yes and no. While someone that is born a mage doesn't automaticaly become evil and dangerous, if he is careless, he can become an abomination. In other words they have the same chance as a non-mage to become a good, evil or in between person, but if he screws it things will get really, really bad

3) If you say that most of them are recruited for their ideological fervor I can 100% agree.

Commander Kurt wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

I must admit. It's my fault I wasn't more elaborate in my comment and forgot to mention some things. 

That force should also guarantee the protection of mages. A crime, no matter if the victim was a mage or a non mage and if the murderer was or not a mage, should be punished.

Thanks for the history lesson, it was really interesting. <3 

All mages slain by the public were using blood magic according to several witnesses. The mages family, maybe some friends, might give a different testimony (although that's VERY doubtful, they would probably need to leave their home if they did), but who's to say what really happened? 

Even if you manage to convict someone for murdering a mage, people protecting their own families will take that risk and slay the next child showing signs. There's a small chance they'll pay with their lives, but their families will be safe.

Peasents killing multiple blood mages ? That would be a pretty bad lie.

I think the problem would be resolved if :

1) A unit of reformed templars ( I'll call them Paladins ) would be stationed in every settlement and act as guards while working with the actual guards and town militia. This way the Paladins would know all the peasents and by acting as guards they might be present and act as the situation demands it ( either protect the non-mages or the mages depending of the circumstances). 

2) The Chantry sisters would become responsible with cataloging every pregnancy and child birth of the population in the region they are dispaced in. It would pe preferable if they acted as midwives as well.

3) Considering that Thedas is a medieval world, murder would most likely be punished by execution on the spot ( if it's obvious - like, let's say, a mage that suddently starts to zap people ) or after a trial. Complicity to murder would also be punished. The children of the infanticide couple ( that if both of them played a role in the child death) would be given in the care of The Chantry. Murder should not be let umpunished, no mather who does it.

4) This one started as a joke, but it would be very good if the templars would create a special group dedicated to investigating murders and crimes.Something like templar detectives. I call it  "The Templar S.U.C.K.S." = The Templar Special Unit for Crime and Kill Situations 

5) I think that mages should go through an obligatory schooling period in The Circle. We know from "Asunder" that mages that don't train their magic abilities might end up with some pretty strange capabilities and some times those powers are dangerous for them and for others + mental training to resist possession. 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

5) I think that mages should go through an obligatory schooling period in The Circle. We know from "Asunder" that mages that don't train their magic abilities might end up with some pretty strange capabilities and some times those powers are dangerous for them and for others + mental training to resist possession. 

To whom are you referring?

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

5) I think that mages should go through an obligatory schooling period in The Circle. We know from "Asunder" that mages that don't train their magic abilities might end up with some pretty strange capabilities and some times those powers are dangerous for them and for others + mental training to resist possession. 

To whom are you referring?

Pharamond says something about this when he speaks with Rhys about Cole's situation. I don't remember how he used to call this mages. "Bla bla witch" or something like that.

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

5) I think that mages should go through an obligatory schooling period in The Circle. We know from "Asunder" that mages that don't train their magic abilities might end up with some pretty strange capabilities and some times those powers are dangerous for them and for others + mental training to resist possession. 

To whom are you referring?

Pharamond says something about this when he speaks with Rhys about Cole's situation. I don't remember how he used to call this mages. "Bla bla witch" or something like that.

Found it. Pharamond dubbed them "Arcanist derangements."

[Khevan77]

The following is my opinion, and is expressed with no intent to infringe on anyone else's opinion on the subject.

A system of monitoring and controlling mages is necessary, simply because mages are so dangerous. We monitor and control dangerous substances in real life, there are varying degrees of gun control, etc. I cannot endorse any ideology that summarily releases mages without some level of control.

That said, the Circles as they stand are overly abusive (or at least overly prone to abuse), and the totalitarian state the OP mentioned has been shown (in at least a couple of instances, if my memory serves) to cause a level of fear that isn't conducive to a healthy state of mind.** A fearful mage may turn to blood magic, or fall prey to demons and become abominations due to long term stress undermining their ability to resist. In effect, the current system could be said to be causing the problem it was designed to prevent. We haven't seen enough of the circles to say if this is truly the case, but an argument certainly could be made that this is a "self-fulfilling prophecy" or a self-perpetuating cycle, where the policies of the Chantry and Templars cause the problems (to an extent) giving them examples to point to, saying "See? We need the Circles to stop this from happening."

The important question is now, to my mind, what to do about the situation? I don't feel that abolishing the Circles is the right move, since mages are dangerous. The lore says so, independent of Chantry teachings. I also don't know if reforming the Circles as they are would be effective, since the current system is too ingrained. This leaves finding some other methods of monitoring and controlling the danger that mages present, but doing so in a way that is non-abusive towards people who's only crime is being born with the power. What this other method could be is open for debate, and I don't have an answer here.

I'm very much in the middle of the Mage vs Templar debate. Both sides are correct in some of their core beliefs, the key is finding the correct middle ground to satisfy both ends of the spectrum.

** Edit:  I meant in the DA games, not in real life.  Obviously, in real life the spectre of fear is well established.

Modifié par Khevan77, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:45 .

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

Found it. Pharamond dubbed them "Arcanist derangements."

Well, that was fast . I don't know why, but I've got the feeling that he used the term "hag witch". I've read the book some time ago and I don't remember all this small details.

Now I wonder if there's a chance that an untrained mage might accidentaly learn Flemeth's dragon trick . Now that would make an interesting quest .

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Found it. Pharamond dubbed them "Arcanist derangements."

Well, that was fast . I don't know why, but I've got the feeling that he used the term "hag witch". I've read the book some time ago and I don't remember all this small details.

Now I wonder if there's a chance that an untrained mage might accidentaly learn Flemeth's dragon trick . Now that would make an interesting quest .

I have all the books on my laptop, hence my speed.
Rhys I think used the term "hedge witch", which is the more colloquial and derogatory term for such magic users.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

What Pro-Mages want - is for mages to be freed, and then be celebrated and handed everything because: Mages.
 

Wrong.  I don't know why you think you're qualified to declaratively state what all pro-mage persons reasons are for wanting mages freed, but I can guarantee you it ain't because we all just love mages for the sake of their being mages.  Nor do we all, or even most of us, I think, think that mages should be celebrated and "handed everything." 

[TheKomandorShepard]

hhh89 wrote...

The Seekers aren't only recruited from the templars ranks, and they have the role to watch over templars. It's the reason why the codex states that templars fear the Seekers.
As for my system, I have no clue why you think a second. Tevinter will come out. The mages would still hold no power over the kingdoms. And the Circles were always meant to be under the Chantry. They had the power to take certain decision by themselves, but it'd the Chantry that allowed them to have certain powers.
I do believe that no solution will hold forever, unless a plot twist makes all mages non-mages or all non-mages mages, and I don't see either happening soon.

So what ,seekers are templars they hunt mages mostly eventually go if conspiracy threatens to the chantry , even lambert took seekers and templar to put down mages just that shows how they aren't rly different.Templars are only punished when they are danger to chantry or templars not because they did something to mages see kirkwall and white spire only thing that divine was intrested was mage revolution and put them down so she send leliana.For how long they would hold no power over the kindgdoms that was how that started in tevinter.Yes i said that chantry was awlays in control of circles practically control everything even their lifes when meredith say kill mages they started to kill mages. See irving and gergoir technically irving is their in control but when gregoir will don't like it or want something else ivring have to obey so irving is gregoir dog. So when FE doing paperwork KC shakes everyting and not responding to anyone ,well technically he does to the chantry but chantry don't care as long it doesn't damage chantry business.      

My solution is long-term is just kill mages and future generations of mages so we are saving money on circles and allow new anti-magical fraction focus on hunting mages down forever so no more abomnations thats best option when it comes about safety and to get rid of abomnations.    

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:53 .

[Silfren]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't understand what is that bi***** about mages pick that fate by themselves if am not wrong they got what they deserved selling their lifes to please others.Mages are too weak to win so they will share the fate of the loser mage wouldn't even handle ferelden army i don't even mention others. IF single mage manages to won his freedom then he deserves that because he erned that if he is too weak well he brought that on himself.

Would i acept being templars and chantry wh*** no hell no but again mages brought that on themselves they sold their freedom for safety well in theory because they don't have neither in practice their choice some peoples just like live in illusion like leliana.  

 

Leaving aside that that's a gross oversimplification of what actually happened, given your disdain for Morrigan and her "stupid evil," it seems rather odd to see you saying that mages deserve their fate
because they brought it upon themselves with that whole "trading freedom
for security," bit.  Thinking that the Circle mages deserve to be scorned as cattle in the slaughterhouse and left to that fate is precisely her opinion. 

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

I have all the books on my laptop, hence my speed.
Rhys I think used the term "hedge witch", which is the more colloquial and derogatory term for such magic users.

That's the word . Thank you ! I was going through some serious brainstorming to remember the right word.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: Then obviously you're not who I'm talking about.  How is this not an understood?

But I'm sure you never speak in generalities.

Do I need to be apologizing to you again? Can we, in the future, simply have an understood apology for all my wrongdoings to your person?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:55 .

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I have all the books on my laptop, hence my speed.
Rhys I think used the term "hedge witch", which is the more colloquial and derogatory term for such magic users.

That's the word . Thank you ! I was going through some serious brainstorming to remember the right word.

Yeah, I had difficulty remembering it too.
http://dragonage.wik...tes#Hedge_Magic