1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Morgen is a nice name. Never realized it meant morning.

The name Morgan is actually Celtic in origin and derives from a word meaning "Sea" as I recall. 

Modifié par Silfren, 04 décembre 2013 - 08:09 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Both nice meanings for a name.

[TheBlackBaron]

Plaintiff wrote...

Would you deep-fry red templars?

Might as well not let them go to waste. 

[Silfren]

I kind of feel bad that we hijacked the crap out of Ieldra's thread. I hope any mods (preferably Allan as he seems the most lenient) see it as us managing to make peace amongst ourselves rather than having to be slapped down.

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

Why do people like you automatically assume that mages who are given their freedom will go off and start a massive genocide against the mundanes? That free mages of the south will fallow their magisters brothers and sisters up north and start rounding up the "normals" and enslaved them?


I believe in fairness. Mages and the mundanes are both equal in my eyes. They both should be given the same rights, and both should be free.

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that "evil" mages as well as mages who fall to demons and become Abominations will exist. It is statistically impossible for them not to. And they will kill normal people.
Will this be caused by a collective effort from mages? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it will happen multiple times.
Therefore, the question remains. If a mage is taken to the Circle, all that we can be certain will happen is that that mage will live in seclusion. But if a mage becomes an Abomination, what we can be certain will happen is that a great number of people will die.
Therefore, why are the freedoms of those mages more important than the lives those Abominations will kill?

According to the Codex Abominations are a rare sight, and what about the Crows in Antiva? They're an organzation that makes its living by murdering innocent people by accepting coin from disgruntled people who want to make sure that the person who they're irritated with dies. IMO they're far worst than a mage being an abomination.

Therefour, why are the freedom of those mundanes more important than the lives of the mages who are forcefully segregated due to fear? Mundanes are proven just as dangerous as a rapid mage who is an abomination., and whats far more disguesting is that mundanes uses murder for profit.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

Why do people like you automatically assume that mages who are given their freedom will go off and start a massive genocide against the mundanes? That free mages of the south will fallow their magisters brothers and sisters up north and start rounding up the "normals" and enslaved them?


I believe in fairness. Mages and the mundanes are both equal in my eyes. They both should be given the same rights, and both should be free.

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that "evil" mages as well as mages who fall to demons and become Abominations will exist. It is statistically impossible for them not to. And they will kill normal people.
Will this be caused by a collective effort from mages? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it will happen multiple times.
Therefore, the question remains. If a mage is taken to the Circle, all that we can be certain will happen is that that mage will live in seclusion. But if a mage becomes an Abomination, what we can be certain will happen is that a great number of people will die.
Therefore, why are the freedoms of those mages more important than the lives those Abominations will kill?

According to the Codex Abominations are a rare sight, and what about the Crows in Antiva? They're an organzation that makes its living by murdering innocent people by accepting coin from disgruntled people who want to make sure that the person who they're irritated with dies. IMO they're far worst than a mage being an abomination.

Therefour, why are the freedom of those mundanes more important than the lives of the mages who are forcefully segregated due to fear? Mundanes are proven just as dangerous as a rapid mage who is an abomination., and whats far more disguesting is that mundanes uses murder for profit.

And still, a single mage can wipe out towns with a thought, and it would take numerous Crows to do the same.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...
And still, a single mage can wipe out towns with a thought, and it would take numerous Crows to do the same.

What if Zevran did not fail at assassinating the Warden, Alistair and the group that is fallowing them? What he if was sucessful. The entire country of Ferelden would be saturated of Darkspawn and with an archdemon prowling around in the skies leading his army to kill as many living things that is on sight.

The only way for an Archdemon to be sucessfully slained is if a Grey warden takes the final blow, and sacrifice their life to end the Blight. To my understanding The warden and Alistair plus that other grey warden was all that was left in Ferelden. Loghian and his fallower Arl Howe would've turned an entire country into a giant size cemetery, and the country would soon belong to the Darkspawn if they sucssesfully killed the warden and Alistair.

Loghain already aided the Darkspawn by calling off his men and thus leaving his King and the Warden commander out into the sticks without backup. It wand up killing both. Darkspawn took over ostagar as a result of a decision of a mundane, not of a mage.

[Lord Raijin]

What I'm trying to say is that while an abomination can do substantial amount of damage.... A mundane can do just as much if not more depending on the amount of political power that they have under their belts.

Loghain and Arl Howe are prime examples of mundanes who are far worst than a blood mage, or a mage that turned into an abomination.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 04 décembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[Hellion Rex]

Funny story, the Antivan Crows were initially a part of the Chantry.

[Navasha]

Lord Raijin wrote...

What I'm trying to say is that while an abomination can do substantial amount of damage.... A mundane can do just as much if not more depending on the amount of political power that they have under their belts.

Loghain and Arl Howe are prime examples of mundanes who are far worst than a blood mage, or a mage that turned into an abomination.

What about the Divine calling an "exalted march"?    Seems to me shes a single individual with the power to destroy whole towns and countries....   Shouldn't she be "put down" or "controlled"?

[Hellion Rex]

Navasha wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What I'm trying to say is that while an abomination can do substantial amount of damage.... A mundane can do just as much if not more depending on the amount of political power that they have under their belts.

Loghain and Arl Howe are prime examples of mundanes who are far worst than a blood mage, or a mage that turned into an abomination.

What about the Divine calling an "exalted march"?    Seems to me shes a single individual with the power to destroy whole towns and countries....   Shouldn't she be "put down" or "controlled"?

Nope, she helped the mages. She's immune.

[Lord Raijin]

Navasha wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What I'm trying to say is that while an abomination can do substantial amount of damage.... A mundane can do just as much if not more depending on the amount of political power that they have under their belts.

Loghain and Arl Howe are prime examples of mundanes who are far worst than a blood mage, or a mage that turned into an abomination.

What about the Divine calling an "exalted march"?    Seems to me shes a single individual with the power to destroy whole towns and countries....   Shouldn't she be "put down" or "controlled"?

The Divine has the ultimate power.... far more than Loghain and Arl Howe, and that is dangerous.  No I don't think the Divine should be controlled or put down, just monitored like a mage of the circle.

Look at what the last Divine did to Kirkwall. She used her templars for political reasons. Just because the Viscount was being an ass to the Orlesian ships doesn't give her the right to interfere with their affairs. Even the Knight-Commander had to remind her in a form of a letter that the templars should never interfere with politcal matters, and that they're there to watch over the mages and protect the citizens from magic. The Divine was "good" friends with the Orlesian queen and decided to do her a "favor" by getting involved.

To me that is corruption at best.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 04 décembre 2013 - 02:18 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Navasha: Do we have a lot of monarchies anymore?

Now, we delude ourselves that we've chosen the people we put into power over us.

It's more complex than that to be sure - many monarchies were what's called "Elective Monarchies".

The people with that kind of power - are given that kind of power.

Mages are not given that power by their fellow man.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Look at what the last Divine did to Kirkwall. She used her templars for political reasons. Just because the Viscount was being an ass to the Orlesian ships doesn't give her the right to interfere with their affairs. Even the Knight-Commander had to remind her in a form of a letter that the templars should never interfere with politcal manners, and that they're there to watch over the mages and protect the citizens from magic. The Divine was "good" friends with the Orlesian queen and decided to do her a "favor" by getting involved.

To me that is corruption at best.

I am sorry, but huh? Where in the hell are you getting this info from?

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Look at what the last Divine did to Kirkwall. She used her templars for political reasons. Just because the Viscount was being an ass to the Orlesian ships doesn't give her the right to interfere with their affairs. Even the Knight-Commander had to remind her in a form of a letter that the templars should never interfere with politcal manners, and that they're there to watch over the mages and protect the citizens from magic. The Divine was "good" friends with the Orlesian queen and decided to do her a "favor" by getting involved.

To me that is corruption at best.

I am sorry, but huh? Where in the hell are you getting this info from?

In the Codex History of Kirkwall chapter 4

I want to correct myself... The Divine was friends with the emperor, not the queen.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 04 décembre 2013 - 02:24 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Look at what the last Divine did to Kirkwall. She used her templars for political reasons. Just because the Viscount was being an ass to the Orlesian ships doesn't give her the right to interfere with their affairs. Even the Knight-Commander had to remind her in a form of a letter that the templars should never interfere with politcal manners, and that they're there to watch over the mages and protect the citizens from magic. The Divine was "good" friends with the Orlesian queen and decided to do her a "favor" by getting involved.

To me that is corruption at best.

I am sorry, but huh? Where in the hell are you getting this info from?

In the Codex History of Kirkwall chapter 4

I want to correct myself... The Divine was friends with the emperor, not the queen.

I thought you were referring to Justinia, not Beatrix. My bad.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...
I thought you were referring to Justinia, not Beatrix. My bad.

No big deal

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Why do people like you automatically assume that mages who are given their freedom will go off and start a massive genocide against the mundanes? That free mages of the south will fallow their magisters brothers and sisters up north and start rounding up the "normals" and enslaved them?


I believe in fairness. Mages and the mundanes are both equal in my eyes. They both should be given the same rights, and both should be free.

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that "evil" mages as well as mages who fall to demons and become Abominations will exist. It is statistically impossible for them not to. And they will kill normal people.
Will this be caused by a collective effort from mages? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it will happen multiple times.
Therefore, the question remains. If a mage is taken to the Circle, all that we can be certain will happen is that that mage will live in seclusion. But if a mage becomes an Abomination, what we can be certain will happen is that a great number of people will die.
Therefore, why are the freedoms of those mages more important than the lives those Abominations will kill?

According to the Codex Abominations are a rare sight, and what about the Crows in Antiva? They're an organzation that makes its living by murdering innocent people by accepting coin from disgruntled people who want to make sure that the person who they're irritated with dies. IMO they're far worst than a mage being an abomination.

Therefour, why are the freedom of those mundanes more important than the lives of the mages who are forcefully segregated due to fear? Mundanes are proven just as dangerous as a rapid mage who is an abomination., and whats far more disguesting is that mundanes uses murder for profit.

How are the Crows relevant to the point at hand? Namely, that there are people who are more physically dangerous than mundanes are that can't always keep control? Notwithstanding that the Crows are bad people, none of them is as dangerous on a personal level as a mage who fails to keep his/her mind.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
According to the Codex Abominations are a rare sight,

 "Rare" is not "non-existant". If there are ways of preventing ocurrences, why should they be ignored?

and what about the Crows in Antiva? They're an organzation that makes its living by murdering innocent people by accepting coin from disgruntled people who want to make sure that the person who they're irritated with dies. IMO they're far worst than a mage being an abomination.

1-A single crow is not as dangerous as an Abomination.
2-Crows require years of extensive training. Five year old mage kids can become Abominations on the spot and kill everyone around them.
3-Most assassination jobs usually involve killing a person or two who, due to being important enough to actually earn enemies wealthy enough to hire the Crows, most likely did something that merited death.
You're going to tell me that's worse than what happened in Redcliff. People losing their loves ones; whether it be a son or a brother, a father, a husband; and then have those loved ones come back as undead who will try to eat them?

Therefour, why are the freedom of those mundanes more important than the lives of the mages who are forcefully segregated due to fear?

It's the other way around. It's the mages who lose freedoms and the normals who will lose their lives.
And you still haven't anwered my question. Why are the freedoms of mages more important than the lives of normals.
Is Connor being home with his mother worth every single child in Redcliff who lost their parents?

Mundanes are proven just as dangerous as a rapid mage who is an abomination.

If they gather in armies, perhaps. Otherwise, Abominations will always be more dangerous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 décembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[SgtSteel91]

MisterJB wrote...
It's the other way around. It's the mages who lose freedoms and the normals who will lose their lives.
And you still haven't anwered my question. Why are the freedoms of mages more important than the lives of normals.
Is Connor being home with his mother worth every single child in Redcliff who lost their parents?

Because even with magic powers they are still sapient beings with thoughts and feelings as well as humans or elves who deserve to have the freedoms non-mages have. And who knows, maybe people will actually start seriously looking for alternative solutions to demon possession beyond locking mages up or killing all mages if the risk of abominations is more pervalent in the countryside.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 04 décembre 2013 - 03:49 .

[MisterJB]

SgtSteel91 wrote...
Because even with magic powers they are still sapient beings with thoughts and feelings as well as humans or elves who deserve to have the freedoms non-mages have.

And normal people deserve to be safe. But, ultimately, it's not about what people deserve. It's about what can, realistically, be provided and what people stand to lose.
Safety can't be provided if there are mages living next door. All it takes is one slip and they will become weapons of massive destruction on the hands of demons. And normal people stand to lose a lot more (their lives) if mages are not isolated than mages do if they are (some freedom)

And who knows, maybe people will actually start seriously looking for alternative solutions to demon possession beyond locking mages up or killing all mages if the risk of abominations is more pervalent in the countryside.

Even if we belive magical research has been halted under the Chantry; which is something that doesn't stand up to the facts; considering that Tevinter hasn't discovered anything in 2000 years, I'm going to say it's, most likely, impossible.
Plus, trying to give people an incentive to discover a vaccine by releasing the virus on the unsuspecting population is a pretty appaling suggestion, anyway.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 décembre 2013 - 04:12 .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...
Because even with magic powers they are still sapient beings with thoughts and feelings as well as humans or elves who deserve to have the freedoms non-mages have.

And normal people deserve to be safe. But, ultimately, it's not about what people deserve. It's about what can, realistically, be provided and what people stand to lose.
Safety can't be provided if there are mages living next door. All it takes is one slip and they will become weapons of massive destruction on the hands of demons. And normal people stand to lose a lot more (their lives) if mages are not isolated than mages do if they are (some freedom)

And who knows, maybe people will actually start seriously looking for alternative solutions to demon possession beyond locking mages up or killing all mages if the risk of abominations is more pervalent in the countryside.

Even if we belive magical research has been halted under the Chantry; which is something that doesn't stand up to the facts; considering that Tevinter hasn't discovered anything in 2000 years, I'm going to say it's, most likely, impossible.
Plus, trying to give people an incentive to discover a vaccine by releasing the virus on the unsuspecting population is a pretty appaling suggestion, anyway.

The circle system doesn't isolate mages it puts them under the mundanes thumb unless templars and the chantry are no longer considered mundanes. Freedom for the mages does not by its nature put none mages in danger anymore then the circle system does. After all a mage on the run and desperate is more dangerous then a mage that feels safe.

If you truly wanted to isolate mages then the mages would be allowed to leave Andrastian nations and take up residence in an area where no other humans live or there is very little human settlement. We are talking about a setting of vast stretches of harsh wilderness after all. With the right magic the mages may even be able to take land that no one else would want and transform it into something worth having.

When people talk about how mages can't be trusted to govern themselves I can't help but think of the Mages Collective from dragon age origins. Our information on them is limited but they don't seem to be harming anyone. The biggest outbreak of abominations was actually at the circle. Plus given that the collective pays you to kill some ill behaved mages they seem to be doing a better job of enforcing good behavior then the templars. The collective had one of its members, that we know of, go abomination during origins and his mentor died trying to kill it. How many blood mages and abominations were there at the tower?

How do you know Tavinter hasn't developed anything in the past 2000 years? We haven't been there after all. I tend to believe that Tavinter is well a bit too much like the sith empire. Every mage is so obsessed with their own power that they rarely if ever share their knowledge as the social system promotes constant struggle.

I can think of a few times when it mentions the Chantry suppress mystic research. When speaking with Morgan she makes note that they are certain forms of ancient magic that is outlawed in the circle system or something to that affect. The templars don't want a mage burning into a bird and flying off after all. So the chantry is not just suppressing but it's actively destroying knowledge that they can't handle.

There is also the notion that older apostate mages tend to be far more powerful then their circle counter parts. This at least indicates that the circle system hinders a mages development.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Also the use of the circle gives the Chantry a powerful tool for controlling non mages. Only we can protect you from this terrible threat - oh and we'll need lots of resources and a standing army to do it. It stregthens their powerbase to suppress any techniques for mages protecting themselves that could be practiced outside their supervision. Seems likely any research along those lines would be enthusiastically discouraged.