1858 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
A mage helping out the villagers? NO WAY! That can't be! My eyes are playing tricks on me. How come he hasn't been turned into an abomination yet? QUICK! someone call the templars and throw him into the Circle!

His family only had a demon in their cellar. Clearly, there is no risk of possession and reason he should be in a Circle.

Well, a few more than "a demon." But let's just forget semantics for now.

Did Kitty summon those? Or did Wilhelm?

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
A mage helping out the villagers? NO WAY! That can't be! My eyes are playing tricks on me. How come he hasn't been turned into an abomination yet? QUICK! someone call the templars and throw him into the Circle!

His family only had a demon in their cellar. Clearly, there is no risk of possession and reason he should be in a Circle.

Well, a few more than "a demon." But let's just forget semantics for now.

Did Kitty summon those? Or did Wilhelm?

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

Hey now. I wasn't defending him, especially since he left a freaking desire demon in the basement. I honestly could not remember when we encountered the Wraiths and Shades.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

If Tevinter can have giant scorpions, Orlais can have Wyverns.
DO IT BIOWARE![/quote][/quote]
Is it just me, or isn't riding on the BACK of a scorpion a particularly bad idea?

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

His son was a ****** poor mage. Not only couldn't he kill a few measly Darkspawn, he couldn't even brave a few Shades for the sake of his daugther.[/quote]


The mundanes at the circle tower were ****** poor Templars. Not only they couldn't kill a few measly abominations and other demons, but some actually gave in to the tempations and became a thrall.

If these poor excuse for a templars were properly trained to fight demons, blood mages and abominations then they wouldn't be begging the Grand Cleric the R.O.A.[/quote]
Templars are trained to handle one or two Abominations at a time, and even then they need an entire squad to take them down. What happened in the Circle of Ferelden was an entire horde of Abominations suckerpunched both the mages and the Templars in the tower.
Also, Abominations lorewise are extremely powerful and even a single one of them can destroy an entire city. So considering that it is rather amazing that the loyalists in the Circle held out for as long as they did to begin with.
And I don't think you quite understand how mind control works...

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

So, yes, I'll concede that for some reason the lore isn't as clear on that point as I'd thought.  It still strikes me that as unlikely that Matthias isn't a mage, though.  Otherwise it raises the question as to how a mage can manipulate magic created by someone else--which definitely is an interesting twist, if it's true.

A magical item might be able to do it, assuming the item was designed for a non-mage.

Given that if this is the case, it would seem that it has to do with Matthias's blood...was it a case of blood magic?

The basic idea, where the blood is combined with the magic to direct the effect rather than to power it, reminds me of the phylacteries, which are supposed to be a legal grey area. (Though I'd argue that the loophole only exists for the Chantry's benefit.)

It may be similar to how Hawke's blood could unlock his/her father's spell using the Key.

Are there any differences in how that quest plays out for a non-Mage Hawke that address the issue? I've only ever played Legacy as a mage.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are trained to handle one or two Abominations at a time, and even then they need an entire squad to take them down. What happened in the Circle of Ferelden was an entire horde of Abominations suckerpunched both the mages and the Templars in the tower.
Also, Abominations lorewise are extremely powerful and even a single one of them can destroy an entire city. So considering that it is rather amazing that the loyalists in the Circle held out for as long as they did to begin with.
And I don't think you quite understand how mind control works...

Especially considering we had a Pride demon controlling an entire Free Marches city for nearly a decade, and that guy might not even have been a mage.

Modifié par eluvianix, 05 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

Leaving aside whether Wilhelm the individual was trustworthy or not, I do think that the man had a very fair point about the need to study demons in order to better develop defenses against them.  It is extremely short-sighted to forbid any and all research out of extreme paranoia and suspicion, when said research could actually lend itself to the end goal--protecting and defending against demon influence--becoming that much more effective.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 12:34 .

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

So, yes, I'll concede that for some reason the lore isn't as clear on that point as I'd thought.  It still strikes me that as unlikely that Matthias isn't a mage, though.  Otherwise it raises the question as to how a mage can manipulate magic created by someone else--which definitely is an interesting twist, if it's true.

A magical item might be able to do it, assuming the item was designed for a non-mage.

Given that if this is the case, it would seem that it has to do with Matthias's blood...was it a case of blood magic?

The basic idea, where the blood is combined with the magic to direct the effect rather than to power it, reminds me of the phylacteries, which are supposed to be a legal grey area. (Though I'd argue that the loophole only exists for the Chantry's benefit.)

It may be similar to how Hawke's blood could unlock his/her father's spell using the Key.

Are there any differences in how that quest plays out for a non-Mage Hawke that address the issue? I've only ever played Legacy as a mage.

I don't think it does. I was just talking about how the "blood" passed from father to child aspect was similar to the Matthias situation.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

Leaving aside whether Wilhelm the individual was trustworthy or not, I do think that the man had a very fair point about the need to study demons in order to better develop defenses against them.  It is extremely short-sighted to forbid any and all research out of extreme paranoia and suspicion, when said research could actually lend itself to the end goal--protecting and defending against demon influence--becoming that much more effective.

Indeed. But leaving a desire demon in the basement of your own house might not have been the best way to go about it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

Leaving aside whether Wilhelm the individual was trustworthy or not, I do think that the man had a very fair point about the need to study demons in order to better develop defenses against them.  It is extremely short-sighted to forbid any and all research out of extreme paranoia and suspicion, when said research could actually lend itself to the end goal--protecting and defending against demon influence--becoming that much more effective.

I don't think that research into demons are forbidden. I think it is highly controleld and regualted however. For obvious reasons.
Also remember that Wilhelms research was sanctioned by the Circle, and we have no knoweldge of wether or not the Chantry allowed it aswell. The proposed idea anyway. I doubt that the Chantry would approve of what he actually did there.
I can however certainly see the appeal of moving any demon related research outside of the Circle, since if it goes bad, only that single mage is put at risk. And considering that WIlhelm's safeguards DID work, it probably wouldn't risk every other living being in the vicinity of the mage either.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 décembre 2013 - 12:38 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't thikn that research into demons are forbidden. I think it is highly controleld and regualted however. For obvious reasons.
Also remember that Wilhelms research was sanctioned by the Circle, and we have no knoweldge of wether or not the Chantry allowed it aswell. The proposed idea anyway. I doubt that the Chantry would approve of what he actually did there.
I can however certainly see the appeal of moving any demon related research outside of the Circle, since if it goes bad, only that single mage is put at risk. And considering that WIlhelm's safeguards DID work, it probably wouldn't risk every other living being in the vicinity of the amge either.

Perhaps relocate that sort of research to old fortresses like Ostagar, Aeonar, or even Andoral's Reach?

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

Leaving aside whether Wilhelm the individual was trustworthy or not, I do think that the man had a very fair point about the need to study demons in order to better develop defenses against them.  It is extremely short-sighted to forbid any and all research out of extreme paranoia and suspicion, when said research could actually lend itself to the end goal--protecting and defending against demon influence--becoming that much more effective.

Indeed. But leaving a desire demon in the basement of your own house might not have been the best way to go about it.

Well.  Wilhelm seemed to be doing a good job, actually, of keeping the demon contained, so it does look like he had the sense to put up safeguards.  He simply didn't factor in being stomped to death by his golem. 

I would agree that there probably could have been safer options.  But I don't fault the guy for trying.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 décembre 2013 - 12:46 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Kitty summons four Rage Demons but the...fella said his father placed some traps and you do encounter some Sahdes plus a Dust Wraith before getting to Kitty's room.

So, as we can see, a very trusthworthy mage to have around. He was only summoning demons.

Leaving aside whether Wilhelm the individual was trustworthy or not, I do think that the man had a very fair point about the need to study demons in order to better develop defenses against them.  It is extremely short-sighted to forbid any and all research out of extreme paranoia and suspicion, when said research could actually lend itself to the end goal--protecting and defending against demon influence--becoming that much more effective.

I don't think that research into demons are forbidden. I think it is highly controleld and regualted however. For obvious reasons.
Also remember that Wilhelms research was sanctioned by the Circle, and we have no knoweldge of wether or not the Chantry allowed it aswell. The proposed idea anyway. I doubt that the Chantry would approve of what he actually did there.
I can however certainly see the appeal of moving any demon related research outside of the Circle, since if it goes bad, only that single mage is put at risk. And considering that WIlhelm's safeguards DID work, it probably wouldn't risk every other living being in the vicinity of the mage either.

I don't think it was sanctioned, though.  Wasn't there something in Wilhelm's journal entry that indicated otherwise?  That's where I got my reference from.  I'm next to certain that came from one of his diary codices--he is complaining that the Chantry can't expect mages to properly defend themselves against demons if it refuses to allow research.

ETA:  Found what I was looking for:  From Codex Entry: The Journal of Enchanter Wilhelm

"13 Pluitanis: The interrogation of the demon is going well, and is rather fascinating--provided that what it is saying is true. I have sent all my research so far to First Enchanter Arden, and while he is concerned about my safety he does not think there is a reason to stop just yet. All I hope is that the templars do not discover what I am doing. How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?"

It would seem that his research was not sanctioned by the Chantry at all but was a secret between Wilhelm and the Circle's First Enchanter of the time.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 12:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I recall him having recieved some letters from the First Enchanter of the Circle, who obviously knew what WIlhelm was doing. In the journal he says that he sent all of his research to the First Enchanter, and then complains about the Chantry won't let them research possessions properly. So it was sanctioned, if unofficially, by the Circle, and the Chantry didn't know what was going on.

Oh by the way, the journal also specifies that the barrier is keyed to his bloodline. Just to clear up that other discussion going on here.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: I'd really like to see Aeonar explored.

Actually, turning into the one place that "forbidden" mages are studied would be very interesting.

Kinda like an Area 51 (where it's not public knowledge of what goes on and it's only portrayed as a Mage Prison) - and a CDC for magic.

It would be interesting - perhaps - to see Chantry, Templars and Mages forcing abominations on to criminal mages to try to better understand demons. Interrogating them, trying to perform exorcisms, etc.

BTW - interesting in a literary sense.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

True, although I am still trying to figure out what in the world Aeonar is for, if Templars normally have an order to kill known maleficar on sight. What in the world goes on in there?

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I recall him having recieved some letters from the First Enchanter of the Circle, who obviously knew what WIlhelm was doing. In the journal he says that he sent all of his research to the First Enchanter, and then complains about the Chantry won't let them research possessions properly. So it was sanctioned, if unofficially, by the Circle, and the Chantry didn't know what was going on.

Oh by the way, the journal also specifies that the barrier is keyed to his bloodline. Just to clear up that other discussion going on here.

I edited my comment.  From appearances, the Chantry did NOT know.  

Wait a second, I misread and thought you were arguing that the Chantry had sanctioned the research.  I'm not sure what the point is of pointing out that the Circle sanctioned it, since I never argued for or against that at all.  The Chantry was relevant to my point, not the Circle.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 01:01 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz: I'd really like to see Aeonar explored.

Actually, turning into the one place that "forbidden" mages are studied would be very interesting.

Kinda like an Area 51 (where it's not public knowledge of what goes on and it's only portrayed as a Mage Prison) - and a CDC for magic.

It would be interesting - perhaps - to see Chantry, Templars and Mages forcing abominations on to criminal mages to try to better understand demons. Interrogating them, trying to perform exorcisms, etc.

BTW - interesting in a literary sense.

That is an interesting hypothesis. Templars might very well be taking advantage of the thinned Veil in Aeonar now to try and perform their own studies of demons and the like.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

True, although I am still trying to figure out what in the world Aeonar is for, if Templars normally have an order to kill known maleficar on sight. What in the world goes on in there?

The Maleficars might hold knowledge the Tempalrs could find themselves in need of. The Maleficars could be nobles, who still hold enough power to not be outright executed (you'd be surprised how often enemies are kept prisoners instead of just executed). AFter all, Tempalrs do not destroy all magical lore they find, that doesn't conform to the Circle rules. They store it and study it on their own, so as to develop defenses probably, or just to keep the knowledge at hand, if tehy ever need it.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

True, although I am still trying to figure out what in the world Aeonar is for, if Templars normally have an order to kill known maleficar on sight. What in the world goes on in there?

The Maleficars might hold knowledge the Tempalrs could find themselves in need of. The Maleficars could be nobles, who still hold enough power to not be outright executed (you'd be surprised how often enemies are kept prisoners instead of just executed). AFter all, Tempalrs do not destroy all magical lore they find, that doesn't conform to the Circle rules. They store it and study it on their own, so as to develop defenses probably, or just to keep the knowledge at hand, if tehy ever need it.

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

True, although I am still trying to figure out what in the world Aeonar is for, if Templars normally have an order to kill known maleficar on sight. What in the world goes on in there?

The Maleficars might hold knowledge the Tempalrs could find themselves in need of. The Maleficars could be nobles, who still hold enough power to not be outright executed (you'd be surprised how often enemies are kept prisoners instead of just executed). AFter all, Tempalrs do not destroy all magical lore they find, that doesn't conform to the Circle rules. They store it and study it on their own, so as to develop defenses probably, or just to keep the knowledge at hand, if tehy ever need it.

Well, granted, the Litany of Adralla was found by a mage, but I can understand why the Temps need all the help they can get against blood magic. Evangeline could barely hold out against what appeared to be a neophyte blood mage, never mind if she had fought a professional user.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I recall him having recieved some letters from the First Enchanter of the Circle, who obviously knew what WIlhelm was doing. In the journal he says that he sent all of his research to the First Enchanter, and then complains about the Chantry won't let them research possessions properly. So it was sanctioned, if unofficially, by the Circle, and the Chantry didn't know what was going on.

Oh by the way, the journal also specifies that the barrier is keyed to his bloodline. Just to clear up that other discussion going on here.

I edited my comment.  From appearances, the Chantry did NOT know.  

Wait a second, I misread and thought you were arguing that the Chantry had sanctioned the research.  I'm not sure what the point is of pointing out that the Circle sanctioned it, since I never argued for or against that at all.  The Chantry was relevant to my point, not the Circle.

The point was that maybe the Circle aren't disallowed to research demons and possessions, but the Chantry wouldn't allow the extrmes of Wilhelm's research. Like some sort of ethics council holding back research, though in this case the research is ACTUALLY dangerous for mankind.
And I think that if the Circle was willing to risk the Chantry finding out that they cooperated with Wilhelm (Tempalrs ahve been known to check mail of the mages), then it obviosuly can't have been too grave of an ofense.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

True, although I am still trying to figure out what in the world Aeonar is for, if Templars normally have an order to kill known maleficar on sight. What in the world goes on in there?

The Maleficars might hold knowledge the Tempalrs could find themselves in need of. The Maleficars could be nobles, who still hold enough power to not be outright executed (you'd be surprised how often enemies are kept prisoners instead of just executed). AFter all, Tempalrs do not destroy all magical lore they find, that doesn't conform to the Circle rules. They store it and study it on their own, so as to develop defenses probably, or just to keep the knowledge at hand, if tehy ever need it.

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

Indeed. It could be a political prison as much as one for mages. Perhaps those who bring great shame to the Chantry are sent there...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aeonar is probably not the best of ideas, consdiering that it is used to house magical criminals who can't be outright executed, for whatever reasons. IF something were to go wrong, the demons would be sitting on a figurative gold mine of scum who would probably be more than willing to cause a little chaos.

True, although I am still trying to figure out what in the world Aeonar is for, if Templars normally have an order to kill known maleficar on sight. What in the world goes on in there?

The Maleficars might hold knowledge the Tempalrs could find themselves in need of. The Maleficars could be nobles, who still hold enough power to not be outright executed (you'd be surprised how often enemies are kept prisoners instead of just executed). AFter all, Tempalrs do not destroy all magical lore they find, that doesn't conform to the Circle rules. They store it and study it on their own, so as to develop defenses probably, or just to keep the knowledge at hand, if tehy ever need it.

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

But can they arrest people and imprison them even if it is against secular law?