1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Found it. Pharamond dubbed them "Arcanist derangements."

Well, that was fast . I don't know why, but I've got the feeling that he used the term "hag witch". I've read the book some time ago and I don't remember all this small details.

Now I wonder if there's a chance that an untrained mage might accidentaly learn Flemeth's dragon trick . Now that would make an interesting quest .

You're thinking about "hedge witch," from the game codex, which talks about the same thing.

Modifié par Silfren, 03 décembre 2013 - 03:58 .

[Beerfish]

Provide a viable alternative to the way things are now and I'll gladly listen. Through the endless waves of threads and posts on these forums that condemn the Templars, the circle, the chantry etc I've yet to hear even one credible, good, alternative that will satisfy me as a peasant, farmer, villager, merchant, Bann, noble etc etc etc.

Mages are dangerous even when closely supervised but are a big accident waiting to happen when unsupervised. As a common farmer I'll feel bad for the plight of a mage as it is described to me but I'll feel it is a necessary evil compared to alternatives.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Found it. Pharamond dubbed them "Arcanist derangements."

Well, that was fast . I don't know why, but I've got the feeling that he used the term "hag witch". I've read the book some time ago and I don't remember all this small details.

Now I wonder if there's a chance that an untrained mage might accidentaly learn Flemeth's dragon trick . Now that would make an interesting quest .

You're thinking about "hedge witch," from the game codex, which talks about the same thing.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Trying to steal my thunder, Sil? I already beat you to it, my dear.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: Then obviously you're not who I'm talking about.  How is this not an understood?

But I'm sure you never speak in generalities.

Do I need to be apologizing to you again? Can we, in the future, simply have an understood apology for all my wrongdoings to your person?

What exactly is the purpose of bringing up a dead subject from another thread, other than to try to start drama?

As for speaking in generalities, there's a right and a wrong way to do it if you don't want to be criticized for painting everyone with a broad brush.  Moreover, you'll excuse me if I find it hard to believe that ANYONE actually thinks mages should be free just because mages are kewl.  The few times I've seen such a response has been tongue-in-cheek; certainly nothing to be taken seriously as their actual reasons. 

Saying "Pro-mages want mages to be free and celebrated and handed everything because: mages" isn't meant to be a general statement, it's meant to ridicule and dismiss people's arguments for why it's wrong to imprison mages for simply being what they are.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Silfren wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I don't understand what is that bi***** about mages pick that fate by themselves if am not wrong they got what they deserved selling their lifes to please others.Mages are too weak to win so they will share the fate of the loser mage wouldn't even handle ferelden army i don't even mention others. IF single mage manages to won his freedom then he deserves that because he erned that if he is too weak well he brought that on himself.

Would i acept being templars and chantry wh*** no hell no but again mages brought that on themselves they sold their freedom for safety well in theory because they don't have neither in practice their choice some peoples just like live in illusion like leliana.  

 

Leaving aside that that's a gross oversimplification of what actually happened, given your disdain for Morrigan and her "stupid evil," it seems rather odd to see you saying that mages deserve their fate
because they brought it upon themselves with that whole "trading freedom
for security," bit.  Thinking that the Circle mages deserve to be scorned as cattle in the slaughterhouse and left to that fate is precisely her opinion. 

Morigan is stupid evil because she is "kil everything" even if target is useful and well she is
malicious not practical target may deserve to their fate but damn if i could use target and have benefit in that i wouldn't care if they deserve or not i would simple use target.I don't want put down mages becaue i don't like them or for fun (well i may do that when i will play as psycho ) i wan't put them down because simple they aren't good for business because they are walking bombs and even then mages don't have good reputation helping them isn't smart decision tough as i have own plans for world i want put chantry down as well so simple i would gladly let chantry and mages kill themselves instead harming my resources.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Found it. Pharamond dubbed them "Arcanist derangements."

Well, that was fast . I don't know why, but I've got the feeling that he used the term "hag witch". I've read the book some time ago and I don't remember all this small details.

Now I wonder if there's a chance that an untrained mage might accidentaly learn Flemeth's dragon trick . Now that would make an interesting quest .

You're thinking about "hedge witch," from the game codex, which talks about the same thing.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Trying to steal my thunder, Sil? I already beat you to it, my dear.

What, you expect me to refresh and actually read the thread to make sure I'm not talking over someone else?  It's too early in the morning to expect that much work outta me!

[Steelcan]

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

[TK514]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think even if you accept some basic elements of the system, there is a lot of room for improvement:

(1) I don't think the constant surveillance and intrusion into mages' lives is necessary. Templars can't spot possession before it becomes obvious anyway, so what's the use?
(2) Also, the phrasing used to describe this is "templars watch for signs of corruption" (DAO mage origin). This indicates there is an ideological bias that mages have a higher innate predisposition towards evil than others, in line with the Chantry's tenet that "magic is a corrupting influence in the world" (WoT I). This contributes to the oppressive quality of the system.

the inability to innately or procedurally spot possession is why constant surveillance is necessary.  The Templars need the shortest possible reaction time to deal with a situation and minimize the loss of life.

if the Templars could see or test for possession or blood magic use, they'd have less need to constantly supervise.  They could have set testing times with random spot checks and spend the rest of their time elsewhere, doing other things.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

(1) Purty sure police offiercers are ideologically antagonistic towards criminals. (2) Purty sure Templars aren't legally immune, consdiering we KNOW that they aren't... (3) The only abuse surveilance can ever infer is when you invade privacy. Furthermore we again KNOW that the powers in the Circle are divided between the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.

Your number 3 varies from Circle to Circle. We have only seen 3 out of 14-15 (4 if you count the Starkhaven mages) Circles in Andrastian Thedas. Not all pairs of First Enchanters and Knight Commanders might get along like Irving and Greagoir.

How the two get along doesn't really change the fact of how it is supposed to be run. The Templars are NOT in charge of the Circle, they are supposed to guide and supervise. The mages are the ones who actually run the Circle from day-to-day.

What's more important, how things are supposed to be run, or how they are run?  Personally I'm more concerned with the reality of how things are, not how they would be if the law was applied properly.  It's useless to wax eloquent about the rights of mages and properly-operated Circles when for all practical purposes the enforcement of such is left to the discretion of the Templars actually residing in the Circle.  The fact is that mages have very little actual power, regardless of the legalities. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

why is it wrong to imprison mages? their dangerous to themselves & others around them, 1 child was able to almost wipe out a village thanks to not getting sent to the circle.

[Silfren]

TK514 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think even if you accept some basic elements of the system, there is a lot of room for improvement:

(1) I don't think the constant surveillance and intrusion into mages' lives is necessary. Templars can't spot possession before it becomes obvious anyway, so what's the use?
(2) Also, the phrasing used to describe this is "templars watch for signs of corruption" (DAO mage origin). This indicates there is an ideological bias that mages have a higher innate predisposition towards evil than others, in line with the Chantry's tenet that "magic is a corrupting influence in the world" (WoT I). This contributes to the oppressive quality of the system.

the inability to innately or procedurally spot possession is why constant surveillance is necessary.  The Templars need the shortest possible reaction time to deal with a situation and minimize the loss of life.

if the Templars could see or test for possession or blood magic use, they'd have less need to constantly supervise.  They could have set testing times with random spot checks and spend the rest of their time elsewhere, doing other things.

It is possible to test for possession at least, per Anders and Merrill (and maybe Bethany?)  Put mages within the ranks of templars to help hunt down rogues and test for possession.

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Dear god, please no... No more Jedi. 

[Iakus]

Threat300 wrote...

why is it wrong to imprison mages? their dangerous to themselves & others around them, 1 child was able to almost wipe out a village thanks to not getting sent to the circle.

It's not wrong to take steps to ensure the safety of society at large.  But the Circles have been horribly abused.  Where does one draw the line?

[Vulpe]

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Dear god, please no... No more Jedi. 

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Dear god, please no... No more Jedi. 

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Mana swords will be next.

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Dear god, please no... No more Jedi. 

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Mana swords will be next.

The templars already do this. Evangeline sends lyrium energy in her sword when she fights that mage that attacks The Divine in the beginnig of the book ( I think ). Her sword starts to emanate tiny blue lyrium sparks.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 04:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

What Pro-Mages want - is for mages to be freed, and then be celebrated and handed everything because: Mages.
 

Wrong.  I don't know why you think you're qualified to declaratively state what all pro-mage persons reasons are for wanting mages freed

It may be the same thing that causes so many pro-mages to declare that all Templars are rapist mass-murderers with a flamming hatred for mages?

It must be some kind of flu going around...

[Br3admax]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Dear god, please no... No more Jedi. 

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Mana swords will be next.

The templars already do this. Evangeline sends lyrium energy in her sword when she fights that mage that attacks The Divine in the beginnig of the book ( it think ). Her sword starts to emanate tiny blue lyrium sparks.

You're proving the point with this, guys.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

What Pro-Mages want - is for mages to be freed, and then be celebrated and handed everything because: Mages.
 

Wrong.  I don't know why you think you're qualified to declaratively state what all pro-mage persons reasons are for wanting mages freed

It may be the same thing that causes so many pro-mages to declare that all Templars are rapist mass-murderers with a flamming hatred for mages?

It must be some kind of flu going around...

Ok, honestly, beyond Xil and Lord Raijin, you don't see such general pronouncements very often.

Modifié par eluvianix, 03 décembre 2013 - 04:29 .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

iakus wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

why is it wrong to imprison mages? their dangerous to themselves & others around them, 1 child was able to almost wipe out a village thanks to not getting sent to the circle.

It's not wrong to take steps to ensure the safety of society at large.  But the Circles have been horribly abused.  Where does one draw the line?

Keeping the circles is better imo, when the tevinter mages were allowed to police themselves, the magisters re took control

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Dear god, please no... No more Jedi. 

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Mana swords will be next.

The templars already do this. Evangeline sends lyrium energy in her sword when she fights that mage that attacks The Divine in the beginnig of the book ( I think ). Her sword starts to emanate tiny blue lyrium sparks.

Indeed. Lambert does the same. But I meant swords made of pure mana. Vivienne is seen calling up a sphere of mana. Could not mages shape that into a sword?

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Mana swords will be next.

The templars already do this. Evangeline sends lyrium energy in her sword when she fights that mage that attacks The Divine in the beginnig of the book ( it think ). Her sword starts to emanate tiny blue lyrium sparks.

You're proving the point with this, guys.

I'm pretty sure that was their intention.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

We already have Force Mage. Add to that some martial training and we can make an order of force mage monks. They will work just fine with some tranquil war monks.

Mana swords will be next.

The templars already do this. Evangeline sends lyrium energy in her sword when she fights that mage that attacks The Divine in the beginnig of the book ( it think ). Her sword starts to emanate tiny blue lyrium sparks.

You're proving the point with this, guys.

I'm pretty sure that was their intention.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.

Jedi don't have demons actively trying to corrupt them though. Can you imagine how quickly a diplomatic summit could go FUBAR with an magical accident?

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

(1) Purty sure police offiercers are ideologically antagonistic towards criminals. (2) Purty sure Templars aren't legally immune, consdiering we KNOW that they aren't... (3) The only abuse surveilance can ever infer is when you invade privacy. Furthermore we again KNOW that the powers in the Circle are divided between the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander.

Your number 3 varies from Circle to Circle. We have only seen 3 out of 14-15 (4 if you count the Starkhaven mages) Circles in Andrastian Thedas. Not all pairs of First Enchanters and Knight Commanders might get along like Irving and Greagoir.

How the two get along doesn't really change the fact of how it is supposed to be run. The Templars are NOT in charge of the Circle, they are supposed to guide and supervise. The mages are the ones who actually run the Circle from day-to-day.

What's more important, how things are supposed to be run, or how they are run?  Personally I'm more concerned with the reality of how things are, not how they would be if the law was applied properly.  It's useless to wax eloquent about the rights of mages and properly-operated Circles when for all practical purposes the enforcement of such is left to the discretion of the Templars actually residing in the Circle.  The fact is that mages have very little actual power, regardless of the legalities. 

When the law is sound but not enforced, then it isn't the law that should be changed but the enforcement of it.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When the law is sound but not enforced, then it isn't the law that should be changed but the enforcement of it.

And that is the crux of the problem. If we do not fix the law, what can we do to change its enforcement in such a way as to have both sides be happy with the outcome?