1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

The codex entry on Aeonar doesn't mention anything particularly horrific about the place.  It's said only to have at one time been a site of magical experimentation, and that now it's location is a closely guarded secret.

It also says that both accused maleficarum and apostates are taken there, so it isn't just reserved for people already condemend as maleficarum.  I would imagine that the Veil is thin there, given its history. 

Interestingly, the writer, Sister Petrine, says that anyone with a strong connection to the Fade will inevitably attact a demon, making determination of guilt or innocence easier.  Fascinating the way she is implying that just having a strong connection is what make a person guilty.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 01:23 .

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

But can they arrest people and imprison them even if it is against secular law?

It would be really nice to see this kind of an issue arise in Inquisition: the necessity of determining whether the Chantry, or the State, has jurisdiction over an accused suspect if that person is affiliated in some way with the Chantry.  I'd LOVE to see one of the conflicts we face having to do with a monarch wanting to dissolve Chantry power within their nation's borders.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

The codex entry on Aeonar doesn't mention anything particularly horrific about the place.  It's said only to have at one time been a site of magical experimentation, and that now it's location is a closely guarded secret.

It also says that both accused maleficarum and apostates are taken there, so it isn't just reserved for people already condemend as maleficarum.  I would imagine that the Veil is thin there, given its history. 

Interestingly, the writer, Sister Petrine, says that anyone with a strong connection to the Fade will inevitably attact a demon, making determination of guilt or innocence easier.  Fascinating the way she is implying that just having a strong connection is what make a person guilty.

I would say the thinned Veil is probably the result of the massacre and the experimentation.
As for Petrice, I mean Petrine, she sounds a tad bit biased, don't you think?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

But can they arrest people and imprison them even if it is against secular law?

It would be really nice to see this kind of an issue arise in Inquisition: the necessity of determining whether the Chantry, or the State, has jurisdiction over an accused suspect if that person is affiliated in some way with the Chantry.  I'd LOVE to see one of the conflicts we face having to do with a monarch wanting to dissolve Chantry power within their nation's borders.

^^This please.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

The codex entry on Aeonar doesn't mention anything particularly horrific about the place.  It's said only to have at one time been a site of magical experimentation, and that now it's location is a closely guarded secret.

It also says that both accused maleficarum and apostates are taken there, so it isn't just reserved for people already condemend as maleficarum.  I would imagine that the Veil is thin there, given its history. 

Interestingly, the writer, Sister Petrine, says that anyone with a strong connection to the Fade will inevitably attact a demon, making determination of guilt or innocence easier.  Fascinating the way she is implying that just having a strong connection is what make a person guilty.

I would say the thinned Veil is probably the result of the massacre and the experimentation.
As for Petrice, I mean Petrine, she sounds a tad bit biased, don't you think?

Just a wee tad.

I can see why accused maleficarum would be taken there, though I don't imagine they would be kept there as a jail sentence, since the penalty for being a maleficarum is death, not imprisonment.  But why would they bring apostates there?  I thought apostates were simply dragged to the Circle.  What possible reason is there to take them to a jail with a horrid reputation if they've committed no crime more heinous than trying to live outside the Circle?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Just a wee tad.

I can see why accused maleficarum would be taken there, though I don't imagine they would be kept there as a jail sentence, since the penalty for being a maleficarum is death, not imprisonment.  But why would they bring apostates there?  I thought apostates were simply dragged to the Circle.  What possible reason is there to take them to a jail with a horrid reputation if they've committed no crime more heinous than trying to live outside the Circle?

Perhaps the supposed "imprisoning" of apostates is merely a cover for whatever their true purposes are.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Just a wee tad.

I can see why accused maleficarum would be taken there, though I don't imagine they would be kept there as a jail sentence, since the penalty for being a maleficarum is death, not imprisonment.  But why would they bring apostates there?  I thought apostates were simply dragged to the Circle.  What possible reason is there to take them to a jail with a horrid reputation if they've committed no crime more heinous than trying to live outside the Circle?

Perhaps the supposed "imprisoning" of apostates is merely a cover for whatever their true purposes are.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.  It sounds all too sinister to me.  There may well be legitimate reasons to keep the location of a prison a very closely-guarded secret, but tthere's a HUGE amount of potential for the jailors there to want it kept secret for decidedly non-altruistic reasons.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: I'd like it to be a triumvirate though... from the Chantry, Templars and Mages.

I'd also like them all to consider the current wars beyond them. They've taken up in Aeonar to serve themselves, not their respective organizations. Or even, that they've caused the events taking place.

I could just see some cold, calculating Reverend Mother, her mage "prisoner" lover, and a more SS type Templar who lead this group in the study and control of magic.

They bring mages there as a "prisoners" - but it's really just to either study them, or recruit them. The Chantry sisters would be converted dragon cultists (or Old God worshippers, or demon worshippers, or just twisting the Chant of Light)... and the Templars would be Reavers (along with traditional Templars)

I dunno, maybe that seems cliche - I think it would be cool.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 décembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Why would they send disobedient sisters there, though?  Aeonar's painted as this mysteriously evil place, and Lily certainly gave the impression of it being a place out of her worst nightmares.

Well, I won't pretend to understand exactly how laws function in Thedas. But I'd wager a guess that the CHantry have its own prisons, Aenoar for example, the White Spire also had its own dungeons. So maybe the Aeonar is the Chantry prison in Ferelden. Or maybe anyhting even related to Maleficarum gets the same punishment, Aeonar. There could be many reasons. And I am inclined to agree with Lily, it doesn't exactly sound like a nice place.

The codex entry on Aeonar doesn't mention anything particularly horrific about the place.  It's said only to have at one time been a site of magical experimentation, and that now it's location is a closely guarded secret.

It also says that both accused maleficarum and apostates are taken there, so it isn't just reserved for people already condemend as maleficarum.  I would imagine that the Veil is thin there, given its history. 

Interestingly, the writer, Sister Petrine, says that anyone with a strong connection to the Fade will inevitably attact a demon, making determination of guilt or innocence easier.  Fascinating the way she is implying that just having a strong connection is what make a person guilty.

Well, if the person is accused of being an apostate and he ends up attracting a demon, it kind of DOES prove his guilt now doesn't it? And since we know that Blood Magic doesn attract demons even more than usual magic, then it is also a neat way of weeding out the guilty.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

Just a wee tad.

I can see why accused maleficarum would be taken there, though I don't imagine they would be kept there as a jail sentence, since the penalty for being a maleficarum is death, not imprisonment.  But why would they bring apostates there?  I thought apostates were simply dragged to the Circle.  What possible reason is there to take them to a jail with a horrid reputation if they've committed no crime more heinous than trying to live outside the Circle?

It could be particularly dangerous apostates, who havn't commited the crime of Maleficarum, which thus legally can't be executed. The apostate can hold knowledge that the Chantry, Templars, and Circle deem valuable but dangerous. There can be a whole slew of reasons to keep prisoners alive. Just because it is a Chantry/Templar prison doesn't mean it HAS to be of a sinister nature.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Just a wee tad.

I can see why accused maleficarum would be taken there, though I don't imagine they would be kept there as a jail sentence, since the penalty for being a maleficarum is death, not imprisonment.  But why would they bring apostates there?  I thought apostates were simply dragged to the Circle.  What possible reason is there to take them to a jail with a horrid reputation if they've committed no crime more heinous than trying to live outside the Circle?

It could be particularly dangerous apostates, who havn't commited the crime of Maleficarum, which thus legally can't be executed. The apostate can hold knowledge that the Chantry, Templars, and Circle deem valuable but dangerous. There can be a whole slew of reasons to keep prisoners alive. Just because it is a Chantry/Templar prison doesn't mean it HAS to be of a sinister nature.

...I didn't say anything about it being sinister because it was a Chantry/Templar prison.  That's just you trying to suggest that I'm biased against it because I hate the Chantry.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The codex entry on Aeonar doesn't mention anything particularly horrific about the place.  It's said only to have at one time been a site of magical experimentation, and that now it's location is a closely guarded secret.

It also says that both accused maleficarum and apostates are taken there, so it isn't just reserved for people already condemend as maleficarum.  I would imagine that the Veil is thin there, given its history. 

Interestingly, the writer, Sister Petrine, says that anyone with a strong connection to the Fade will inevitably attact a demon, making determination of guilt or innocence easier.  Fascinating the way she is implying that just having a strong connection is what make a person guilty.

Well, if the person is accused of being an apostate and he ends up attracting a demon, it kind of DOES prove his guilt now doesn't it? And since we know that Blood Magic doesn attract demons even more than usual magic, then it is also a neat way of weeding out the guilty.

The problems with that line of thought are obvious to me, but okay, I'll bite.

Maybe read back over my post again.  What's quoted is that mages with strong connections to the Fade have a tendency to attract demons.  There's nothing about that statement that suggests a mage is actively trying to seek out a demon to help them get away from the prison.  Indeed it implies that a mage with a strong connection to the Fade could simply attract demons merely by their presence alone.  So no, it doesn't prove guilt, certainly it shouldn't be considered the equivalent of a full confession.

Because blood magic MORE OFTEN attracts demons than regular magic also does NOT automatically weed out the guitly from the innocent.  "More often" is not 'always", and it is not "exclusively."  Using "more often" to mean that we can automatically conclude guilt is a bad idea.  You're guaranteed to overlook even the possibility of innocence if you take that attitude.

Remember that Wynne is one of those mages with a particularly strong connection to the Fade.  Based on Petrine's words here, she could well attract demons, especially if the Veil is thin as I think it is.

What's there to accuse about being an apostate?  I think you're maybe confusing terms here.  All it takes to be an apostate is to live outside of the Circle.   It's not the same thing as being accused of a crime: if a mage is hiding from the Chantry in order not to be sent to the Circle, they're an apostate, end of discussion.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The codex entry on Aeonar doesn't mention anything particularly horrific about the place.  It's said only to have at one time been a site of magical experimentation, and that now it's location is a closely guarded secret.

It also says that both accused maleficarum and apostates are taken there, so it isn't just reserved for people already condemend as maleficarum.  I would imagine that the Veil is thin there, given its history. 

Interestingly, the writer, Sister Petrine, says that anyone with a strong connection to the Fade will inevitably attact a demon, making determination of guilt or innocence easier.  Fascinating the way she is implying that just having a strong connection is what make a person guilty.

Well, if the person is accused of being an apostate and he ends up attracting a demon, it kind of DOES prove his guilt now doesn't it? And since we know that Blood Magic doesn attract demons even more than usual magic, then it is also a neat way of weeding out the guilty.

The problems with that line of thought are obvious to me, but okay, I'll bite.

Maybe read back over my post again.  What's quoted is that mages with strong connections to the Fade have a tendency to attract demons.  There's nothing about that statement that suggests a mage is actively trying to seek out a demon to help them get away from the prison.  Indeed it implies that a mage with a strong connection to the Fade could simply attract demons merely by their presence alone.  So no, it doesn't prove guilt, certainly it shouldn't be considered the equivalent of a full confession.

Because blood magic MORE OFTEN attracts demons than regular magic also does NOT automatically weed out the guitly from the innocent.  "More often" is not 'always", and it is not "exclusively."  Using "more often" to mean that we can automatically conclude guilt is a bad idea.  You're guaranteed to overlook even the possibility of innocence if you take that attitude.

Remember that Wynne is one of those mages with a particularly strong connection to the Fade.  Based on Petrine's words here, she could well attract demons, especially if the Veil is thin as I think it is.

What's there to accuse about being an apostate?  I think you're maybe confusing terms here.  All it takes to be an apostate is to live outside of the Circle.   It's not the same thing as being accused of a crime: if a mage is hiding from the Chantry in order not to be sent to the Circle, they're an apostate, end of discussion.

I don't think that Aeonar is the kind of prison where "innocence" and "guilt" matters much anyway. It seems more like the sort of palce you throw something unwanted, and then let nature run its course. In our days' terms it would probably be equivalent of a political prison.

And there is no way to detect a mage. So you can very easily accuse someone of being an Apostate. I'd imagine when the case gets particularly foggy, that the Templars would have to make the decission of either leaving the accused be, and risking eltting a mage free, or take him to a place like Aeonar, and see if he actually is a mage or not.

Silfren wrote...

...I didn't say anything about it being sinister because it was a Chantry/Templar prison.  That's just you trying to suggest that I'm biased against it because I hate the Chantry.

But if you DO hate the Chantry, then you ARE biased. There is no shame in admitting bias, it is simple human psychology. For instance I also tend towards more sinister explanations whenever magic or mages are involved.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 décembre 2013 - 03:06 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is no way to detect a mage. So you can very easily accuse someone of being an Apostate. I'd imagine when the case gets particularly foggy, that the Templars would have to make the decission of either leaving the accused be, and risking eltting a mage free, or take him to a place like Aeonar, and see if he actually is a mage or not.

Since when is there no way to detect a mage?  I thought it was part of the established lore that Templars could indeed detect a mage.  What they cannot detect is the active use of blood magic.

But if you DO hate the Chantry, then you ARE biased. There is no shame in admitting bias, it is simple human psychology. For instance I also tend towards more sinister explanations whenever magic or mages are involved.

...And the point in this statement is what, exactly?  I fully admit to bias and I never claimed there was any shame in it; and I try to always acknowledge when my bias may be impacting my ability to be objective on a given issue; I certainly don't try to pretend I'm viewing something objectively when I damn well know I'm now.  I am self-aware enough to recognize my own biases for what they are.  

In fact we weren't talking about bias at all, so I really don't understand why you even brought this up.  All I ever said was that I thought something about the prison seemed sinister due to the extreme secrecy around it.  I never said or implied that my feeling on that had anything to do with the prison being owned by the Chantry.  And it does not.   

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Since when is there no way to detect a mage?  I thought it was part of the established lore that Templars could indeed detect a mage.  What they cannot detect is the active use of blood magic.

Hold the phone. I thought templars could sense only ambient magic, or a mage when they are actively casting. Otherwise, Evangeline could have sensed the mage that tried to assassinate the Divine long before he tried to do the dirty deed.
Wait a sec, didn't I have this discussion with you before?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is no way to detect a mage. So you can very easily accuse someone of being an Apostate. I'd imagine when the case gets particularly foggy, that the Templars would have to make the decission of either leaving the accused be, and risking eltting a mage free, or take him to a place like Aeonar, and see if he actually is a mage or not.

Since when is there no way to detect a mage?  I thought it was part of the established lore that Templars could indeed detect a mage.  What they cannot detect is the active use of blood magic.

They can't. Otherwise they wouldn't let Hawke, Merrill, Anders and Bethany walk around freely in the Gallows and Kirkwall in general. Or all the other Apostates there for that matter.
What is in question is wether or not a Templar can sense trace amount of magic, since we got Ser Otto in Ferelden who claims he could "sense" foul magic around the Alienage. Though that might just be boiled down to good intuition, or him being a bit of a looney (you don't get a claim to sanity when you in near blind condition want to fight demons).

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is no way to detect a mage. So you can very easily accuse someone of being an Apostate. I'd imagine when the case gets particularly foggy, that the Templars would have to make the decission of either leaving the accused be, and risking eltting a mage free, or take him to a place like Aeonar, and see if he actually is a mage or not.

Since when is there no way to detect a mage?  I thought it was part of the established lore that Templars could indeed detect a mage.  What they cannot detect is the active use of blood magic.

They can't. Otherwise they wouldn't let Hawke, Merrill, Anders and Bethany walk around freely in the Gallows and Kirkwall in general. Or all the other Apostates there for that matter.
What is in question is wether or not a Templar can sense trace amount of magic, since we got Ser Otto in Ferelden who claims he could "sense" foul magic around the Alienage. Though that might just be boiled down to good intuition, or him being a bit of a looney (you don't get a claim to sanity when you in near blind condition want to fight demons).

Evangeline could sense the magic that the assassin was attempting to use...Also, she could do the same when Wynne was using magic against her and Cole in the sewers of Val Royeaux.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think sensing magic in use is anything special to be honest. But wether or not they can feel trace amount of magic, is what I was talking about ie. magic that has already been cast. If they can then it would make tracking mages easier, and the accusations of Apostasy a bit easier to figure out. If they can't, well then that just means the Templars' job is harder than it seems.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think sensing magic in use is anything special to be honest. But wether or not they can feel trace amount of magic, is what I was talking about ie. magic that has already been cast. If they can then it would make tracking mages easier, and the accusations of Apostasy a bit easier to figure out. If they can't, well then that just means the Templars' job is harder than it seems.

My guess is that Templars lack the ability to sense the inherent magic in a human being, unless that mage is of extremely powerful might. Which means that the Templars are often flying blind. Probably also why they have to use phylacteries to track the mages, instead of using their powers.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is no way to detect a mage. So you can very easily accuse someone of being an Apostate. I'd imagine when the case gets particularly foggy, that the Templars would have to make the decission of either leaving the accused be, and risking eltting a mage free, or take him to a place like Aeonar, and see if he actually is a mage or not.

Since when is there no way to detect a mage?  I thought it was part of the established lore that Templars could indeed detect a mage.  What they cannot detect is the active use of blood magic.

They can't. Otherwise they wouldn't let Hawke, Merrill, Anders and Bethany walk around freely in the Gallows and Kirkwall in general. Or all the other Apostates there for that matter.
What is in question is wether or not a Templar can sense trace amount of magic, since we got Ser Otto in Ferelden who claims he could "sense" foul magic around the Alienage. Though that might just be boiled down to good intuition, or him being a bit of a looney (you don't get a claim to sanity when you in near blind condition want to fight demons).

I really thought that Templars could sense magic, but I certainly don't think we can use Hawke or any of her associates as proof of this one way or the other, and you know better than that anyway, given that you know just as well as the rest of us that the only reason the Templars don't recognize them as mages is because the plot didn't let them.  Nothing to do with not sensing magic.

[Silfren]

Wait. Am I the only one who remembers that some poor shmuck passed out from the deep-fried food earlier, and never actually came to?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Wait. Am I the only one who remembers that some poor shmuck passed out from the deep-fried food earlier, and never actually came to?

Oh, yeah. Food coma. Called an ambulance for that guy hours ago.

[TEWR]

They can't. Otherwise they wouldn't let Hawke, Merrill, Anders and Bethany walk around freely in the Gallows and Kirkwall in general. Or all the other Apostates there for that matter.

DAII is the same game that had Templars unable to sense Veil disturbances when DAO clearly established this as part of a Templar's repertoire, per Ser Otto and a Templar Warden's comment following what Ser Otto says.

I'd hardly treat DAII as evidence of anything.

DAII's the same game that has a Templar, on the Docks, say "I seek any information on suspected apostates" when you could literally cast magic in front of his friggin' face.

EDIT: As he's saying that!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Br3admax]

Are we talking about deep-fried food again? Because it'll kill you. Templar number one weapon against robes.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Wait. Am I the only one who remembers that some poor shmuck passed out from the deep-fried food earlier, and never actually came to?

Wait... what?