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[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I like her for the most part, too, but there's still some discrepancy in her character.  I'd like to know how the woman we meet in Asunder can possibly be the same woman who was, according to Leliana, willing to raze Kirkwall to the ground.

She was contemplating it. Obviously she ultimately was unwilling to do so, since an Exalted March never happened.

In fact, Leliana never uses the term Exalted March either. It was Elthina IIRC.

That she was contemplating it still doesn't seem to jive with the character of Justinia as shown in the book, even so. 

Elthina was the one who mentioned an Exalted March?  Now that is interesting indeed.  I always thought that Elthina was a manipulative old bat. 

Though Leliana does say something about not letting Kirkwall fall to magic.  I'd have to look at those scenes again, but it still doesn't do much to paint Justinia in the same light as from the book, Asunder.

Now that I think about it, Justinia had Pharamond begin experimenting 5 years before Asunder, right? Asunder is in 9:40, so that leaves Pharamond starting right around in 9:35. DA2 ends in what, 9:37? So the quest Faith, which takes place in Act 3 happens during 9:37 most likely...crap. Yeah, I am just gonna chalk it up to David not having written the book by the time all these other pieces were said and done. Because otherwise, that is a bit of an issue with her character.

What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

[TEWR]

Asunder is in 9:40

9:38 actually.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Vivienne was shown with one in the PAX demo so you might get your wish.

Vivienne's is just Malcolm's Honor.

And I wonder how the hell she got that. For now, I'm assuming reused skin for the purposes of the Alpha Demo.

She killed Hawke and took her stuff? I could get behind that, actually.  It would mean that Vivienne is now the second most bad-ass person in all of Thedas. 

....She'd better be a love interest.  None of you will ever hear the end of my whining if she isn't.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Why do people always forget the staff?

It wouldn't even be so bad if we saw civilians with walking sticks.

I totally want a gold walking stick topped with a naked woman!  Somebody buy me one!

Vivienne was shown with one in the PAX demo so you might get your wish.

.....You are not listening to me.  I want a REAL gold walking stick capped with a naked woman.  Not some cheap virtual pixelated thing!

I'd totally get a kick of walking into church with that.

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Vivienne was shown with one in the PAX demo so you might get your wish.

Vivienne's is just Malcolm's Honor.

And I wonder how the hell she got that. For now, I'm assuming reused skin for the purposes of the Alpha Demo.

She killed Hawke and took her stuff? I could get behind that, actually.  It would mean that Vivienne is now the second most bad-ass person in all of Thedas. 

....She'd better be a love interest.  None of you will ever hear the end of my whining if she isn't.

pfft I gave that hideous staff to Anders. She ransacked Anders' corpse I guess.

XD *hopes she's not a LI*

[TEWR]

What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Or she (Leliana) could've, y'know, investigated all those things rather then making assumptions on what's going on. Fact is, if she had investigated then Cassandra would've been unnecessary and maybe it could've all been prevented.

Leliana dropped the ball big time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:31 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

.....You are not listening to me.  I want a REAL gold walking stick capped with a naked woman.  Not some cheap virtual pixelated thing!

I'd totally get a kick of walking into church with that.

*grins wickedly at the idea*

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ryzaki wrote...

XD *hopes she's not a LI*

I dunno. I think she's kinda hot.

(Silf whining doesn't effect me on this much. I'm immune to whining due to all the characters one of the authors of Champions and Heroes can't romance.)

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...

She killed Hawke and took her stuff? I could get behind that, actually.  It would mean that Vivienne is now the second most bad-ass person in all of Thedas. 

....She'd better be a love interest.  None of you will ever hear the end of my whining if she isn't.

pfft I gave that hideous staff to Anders. She ransacked Anders' corpse I guess.

XD *hopes she's not a LI*

Though, you know, if Varric were available, I might be consolable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Or she (Leliana) could've, y'know, investigated all those things rather then making assumptions on what's going on. Fact is, if she had investigated then Cassandra would've been unnecessary and maybe it could've all been prevented.

Leliana dropped the ball big time.

Oh? You know what was in Lelianna's report? Please do enlighten us. Back then the incident in the Gallows had not yet happened, so I am not exactly sure how you expect Lelianna's report to spread any light on that subject for Cassandra, but I digress...

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...

She killed Hawke and took her stuff? I could get behind that, actually.  It would mean that Vivienne is now the second most bad-ass person in all of Thedas. 

....She'd better be a love interest.  None of you will ever hear the end of my whining if she isn't.

pfft I gave that hideous staff to Anders. She ransacked Anders' corpse I guess.

XD *hopes she's not a LI*

Though, you know, if Varric were available, I might be consolable.

Curses. *hopes both are unavailable* 

Even if I ship FemQunarixVarric like burning.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

XD *hopes she's not a LI*

I dunno. I think she's kinda hot.

(Silf
whining doesn't effect me on this much. I'm immune to whining due to
all the characters one of the authors of Champions and Heroes can't
romance.)

I like her design though her hat leaves much to be desired.

I'm amused by it though :3

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Asunder is in 9:40

9:38 actually.

Nope. 9:40. Lambert broke the Accords in that year in response to the White Spire incident.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ryzaki wrote...


I like her design though her hat leaves much to be desired.

I'm amused by it though :3

I don't remember what her hat looked like. I am, however, hoping it can be customized. (Apparently you are too.)

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Didn't Kirkwall technically fall to magic anyways?

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Didn't Kirkwall technically fall to magic anyways?

Not really. In all cases it ended with the mages being crushed by the Templars.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Didn't Kirkwall technically fall to magic anyways?

In my playthrough it was liberated from rogue templars.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh? You know what was in Lelianna's report? Please do enlighten us. Back then the incident in the Gallows had not yet happened, so I am not exactly sure how you expect Lelianna's report to spread any light on that subject for Cassandra, but I digress...

Well let's see, Leliana assumes the Resolutionists are behind EVERYTHING rather then just being a part of the problem in Kirkwall and goes back home immediately after the attack to inform the Divine of this (her dialogue's clear on this front). I know before she came she let word slip that she was coming in just so the Resolutionists could attack her, which kinda smacks of some sort of bias in light of the "They're behind EVERYTHING" comment she makes (her "must not fall to magic" line I won't address because that's irrelevant.).

Well, maybe not irrelevant. She assumes mages are the problem, lures certain mages into a trap, says Kirkwall must not fall to magic.... it all kinda smacks of some bias because it tries to paint the Chantry and Templars as infallible. Maybe. Honestly, I really don't go into "Leliana's anti-mage!" rants all that much. This is perhaps the first time.

Fact is, if she'd bothered to do some investigating she could've found out that 1) with Dumar dead, Meredith took over the Viscount's seat (something illegal for Templars to do. Evangeline and Irminric had to give up their titles to join the Templars) and stalled any attempts at appointing a new Viscount in the city. This led to...

2) increased tensions as a result of Meredith's hard line attitude being taken to the extreme, which inflamed the passions of Mages and Templars. Further investigation by talking to Templars and Mages might've led to...

3) Knowledge of what has happened in Kirkwall over the last six years. The Qunari attack on Kirkwall spread like wildfire and Leliana could've discovered the various Mage-Templar problems over the years. She would've found out about the Champion. She would've found out how he attained his estate. She would've found out about the expedition that began with three partners and met some major trouble along the way.

I'm not referring to her knowing about the endgame, but rather investigating enough to have prevented it entirely (really just having attempted to. Failure's sort of dictated by Cassandra wanting to know). Leliana could've found out enough of events in the past, worked to prevent what would happen in the future (the endgame) without going down the "Bloodshed's probably best" route, and failed because it was just far out of her control as well. Or maybe she couldn't even get that far because as she had finished up her investigation, the endgame happened.

Then Cassandra's investigating everything through Varric because while Leliana has her information, she and Cassandra want to know if it's all factually accurate from a man who was actually there. Her information garnered (in my hypothetical alternate scenario I'm discussing) could very well have been accurate, but they wanted to double check and triple check and go check, check, check!

I mean, I'd expect some of that to make its way into the narration segment. All Cassandra had was Varric's tale and perhaps rumors/minor scraps of info dug up that she developed her own wild theories regarding.

This ties back into one of my main gripes with the game: You can't even really attempt to calm the situation before it boils out of control (for player or NPC) because the game doesn't let you. It gives you no player agency and throws you into this situation as it's already out of control because it's forced upon your doorstep.

The Qunari Act was a good bit of trying to mediate a rapidly growing confrontation. But the Mage-Templar arc throughout the game was little more then MAGES! TEMPLARS! MAGES AND TEMPLARS, TEMPLARS AND MAGES! being hurled in your face without much sense to it.

I think you and I can both agree both sides were very much lacking in a decent portrayal of their pros and cons.

But I digress...

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2013 - 07:23 .

[TEWR]

eluvianix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Asunder is in 9:40

9:38 actually.

Nope. 9:40. Lambert broke the Accords in that year in response to the White Spire incident.

David Gaider said the events of Asunder took place a year after Act 3's conclusion of DAII and two years before Cassandra's interrogation, via twitter, some time in the past.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider said the events of Asunder took place a year after Act 3's conclusion of DAII and two years before Cassandra's interrogation, via twitter, some time in the past.

I was also under the impression that Asunder took place after the end of Act 3 and before Cassandra's interrogation.

However, the World of Thedas timeline places both Lambert's dissolution of the Accord and Cassandra's interrogation of Varric in 9:40.

I think we can chalk it up to yet another case of the Devs not keeping track of their own lore.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 décembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You can also use their phylacteries to cast spells on them from a distance, which makes it an even more hypocritical use of blood magic, in my view.

Meh, hypocritcal or not, I would still say it is very handy against a maleficar.

Sure, and I think it's a good idea, certainly.  But I'm not okay with the Chantry refusing to acknowledge that it is applying blood magic.  I'd have more respect if the Chantry simply taught that blood magic was dangerous and something to be wary of, without condemning it across the board, since it DOES have legitimately benign applications--and, y'know, the Chantry is more than willing to use it when it suits its own ends.

As Justinia puts it, "A convenient tale, so we may sleep better at night."
God, I love this Divine more and more each time I read Asunder. She had some great dialogue.

I like her for the most part, too, but there's still some discrepancy in her character.  I'd like to know how the woman we meet in Asunder can possibly be the same woman who was, according to Leliana, willing to raze Kirkwall to the ground.

Leliana doesn't say that.

I actually find Leliana in that quest to be quite interesting. Here we are talking about what she may have said, and none of us are actually discussing what Leliana ACTUALLY said.

It was Elthina who brought up the issue of an Exalted March as she was afraid that 'Sister Nightingale's' report of Kirkwall would be worthy of having it razed to the ground.

What Leliana ACTUALLY says is that the Divine is taking the situation in Kirkwall very seriously and may take action in the future. What that action is never really specified. Also, Leliana is incredibly vague on the details she gives Hawke. She only lets Hawke know exactly what Hawke needs to know as per his mission as given by Elthina, and not a scrap of information more than that, and we the gamers have formed wild theories as a result. Leliana says she drew out the Resolutionists, which she did, and discusses how they may be influencing things, which Hawke never actually sees but those resolutionists were still drawn out so we know there are things going on beyond the gamer's, and Hawke's, knowledge.

Leliana discusses the Chantry's and the Divine's official stance on mages and the Libertarians without once ever discussing what her own personal thoughts were.

Before that quest every came out, and for those who never got The Exiled Prince DLC, they would never know there was a group called the Resolutionists unless they got spoiled here on the forums or by a friend who does have it. Because of this, we know that Leliana is working with information we ourselves lack, and thus we cannot claim we know the full extent of her report, investigation techniques, or knowledge. We are actually dancing to her tune, working on information she chose to give us, and again, she only gave us information relevent to what Hawke was asked to do and nothing more.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Leliana doesn't say that.

I actually find Leliana in that quest to be quite interesting. Here we are talking about what she may have said, and none of us are actually discussing what Leliana ACTUALLY said.

It was Elthina who brought up the issue of an Exalted March as she was afraid that 'Sister Nightingale's' report of Kirkwall would be worthy of having it razed to the ground.

Yeah, Eluvian already pointed that out to me.  It's been so long since I played that quest I'd forgotten.  I thought that the idea came from Leliana via the Divine.  It's extremely interesting that Elthinat is the first person to use that phrase, and plant the idea in Hawke's mind. 

Too bad that Hawke isn't allowed to be shrewd enough to figure out the way Elthina is manipulating them all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh? You know what was in Lelianna's report? Please do enlighten us. Back then the incident in the Gallows had not yet happened, so I am not exactly sure how you expect Lelianna's report to spread any light on that subject for Cassandra, but I digress...

Well let's see, Leliana assumes the Resolutionists are behind EVERYTHING rather then just being a part of the problem in Kirkwall and goes back home immediately after the attack to inform the Divine of this (her dialogue's clear on this front). I know before she came she let word slip that she was coming in just so the Resolutionists could attack her, which kinda smacks of some sort of bias in light of the "They're behind EVERYTHING" comment she makes (her "must not fall to magic" line I won't address because that's irrelevant.).

The resolutionist WERE behind much of it. It is heavily implied that all illegal mage activities can be traced back to them.
And how do you know that Lelianna left immediately afterwards? Do you kow how long she had been in Kirkwall beforehand? Do you know anything about what her MO was?
There are so many blanks that condemning or endorsing her actions is useless. All we know is that she was in Kirkwall in 9:37 investigating the unstable political climate of Kirkwall. That is it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, maybe not irrelevant. She assumes mages are the problem, lures certain mages into a trap, says Kirkwall must not fall to magic.... it all kinda smacks of some bias because it tries to paint the Chantry and Templars as infallible. Maybe. Honestly, I really don't go into "Leliana's anti-mage!" rants all that much. This is perhaps the first time.

It is entirely irrelevant and blown way out of proportion. She doesn't assume that mages are the source of problem. She says they are PART of the problem. Obviously the resolutionists ARE a problem.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fact is, if she'd bothered to do some investigating she could've found out that 1) with Dumar dead, Meredith took over the Viscount's seat (something illegal for Templars to do. Evangeline and Irminric had to give up their titles to join the Templars) and stalled any attempts at appointing a new Viscount in the city. This led to...

Just give me ONE, ONE hard quote from lore or from developer that states that it is illegal for a Templar to control a city. Just ONE. They may not hold any titles, but last I checked Meredith never took the title of Viscount, so that law was never broken. The City Guard was left decimated after the Qunari incident, and Meredith and her Templars stepped up and ceased control of the city, that was rapidly decending into chaos. At this time Lelianna has no reason to suspect any kind of foulplay here. There was a magical problem. Templars was trying to deal with it. The problem here being?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

2) increased tensions as a result of Meredith's hard line attitude being taken to the extreme, which inflamed the passions of Mages and Templars. Further investigation by talking to Templars and Mages might've led to...

There were already clear reasons as to why the Templars took control of Kirkwall, and they were almost all of them loyal to Meredith. If she by chance had come across the traitors, she would be more likely to apprehend them, than aid them. As would be her duty, since Meredith had done nothing wrong yet.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

3) Knowledge of what has happened in Kirkwall over the last six years. The Qunari attack on Kirkwall spread like wildfire and Leliana could've discovered the various Mage-Templar problems over the years. She would've found out about the Champion. She would've found out how he attained his estate. She would've found out about the expedition that began with three partners and met some major trouble along the way.

Who would she question exactly to get intimate knowledge about how Hawke came to means? Varric? Anders? Maybe Isabela? Not many around who would be willing to sell Hawke out. For that matter Hawke had not yet played a big role in the mage-Templar conflcit of Kirkwall, so why would she even bother with Hawke?
And what exactly has happened over the past six years in Kirkwall that is oh so horrible that it begs for more investigation into how Hawke came to means?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm not referring to her knowing about the endgame, but rather investigating enough to have prevented it entirely (really just having attempted to. Failure's sort of dictated by Cassandra wanting to know). Leliana could've found out enough of events in the past, worked to prevent what would happen in the future (the endgame) without going down the "Bloodshed's probably best" route, and failed because it was just far out of her control as well. Or maybe she couldn't even get that far because as she had finished up her investigation, the endgame happened.

How and why? Investigate what on which motivation? She was not there to investigate the Templars, so suddenly changing her focus from the mages, which she was sent to investigate, would seem kind of counter-productive for her MO.
Kirkwall DID have an extreme mage problem. Not just from within the Circle, so there were plenty for her to investigate just by focusing on the mages alone.
You are saying that she should, through meta-gaming and some idea of what you would have done, have done what you wanted her to do, based on knowledge you ahve no way of knowing she had, could act on, or even cared about.
She had a mission: investigate mages in Kirkwall. To our knowledge she completed that mission, to the satisfaction of the Divine, since no Exalted March was called on the city, or any other repercussions for that matter.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then Cassandra's investigating everything through Varric because while Leliana has her information, she and Cassandra want to know if it's all factually accurate from a man who was actually there. Her information garnered (in my hypothetical alternate scenario I'm discussing) could very well have been accurate, but they wanted to double check and triple check and go check, check, check!

Cassandra's investigation is about Hawke, after it is realized that Hawke was a big player in the whole deal. Before the Gallows incident, he was "just" the Champion. A particularly skilled warrior or apostate that had helped Kirkwall in its our of need. Before that he was a nobody, and after that he didn't do much to garner attention. Only after the tales of what had happened in the Gallows did Hawke attain any form of infamy.
But then again, Hawke was never the focus of Lelianna's investigation, so I fail to see why she should focus on him and fail her actual mission. For all we know, through her investigation she learned that Hawke was important, and the Divine then sent out a new mission to investigate Hawke.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Qunari Act was a good bit of trying to mediate a rapidly growing confrontation. But the Mage-Templar arc throughout the game was little more then MAGES! TEMPLARS! MAGES AND TEMPLARS, TEMPLARS AND MAGES! being hurled in your face without much sense to it.

I think you and I can both agree both sides were very much lacking in a decent portrayal of their pros and cons.

But I digress...

The only side that lacked representation was the moderate. Though Hawke could also try, thorughout act 3, to mediate a peace between Templars and Mages, it just didn't work out in the end, because Anders wanted to be a dick.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Leliana doesn't say that.

I actually find Leliana in that quest to be quite interesting. Here we are talking about what she may have said, and none of us are actually discussing what Leliana ACTUALLY said.

It was Elthina who brought up the issue of an Exalted March as she was afraid that 'Sister Nightingale's' report of Kirkwall would be worthy of having it razed to the ground.

Yeah, Eluvian already pointed that out to me.  It's been so long since I played that quest I'd forgotten.  I thought that the idea came from Leliana via the Divine.  It's extremely interesting that Elthinat is the first person to use that phrase, and plant the idea in Hawke's mind. 

Too bad that Hawke isn't allowed to be shrewd enough to figure out the way Elthina is manipulating them all.

Huh? If Lelianna's report of the situation in Kirkwall was severe enough, the Divine COULD very well have called for an Exalted March. That is not her being manipulative. That is her being a realist.

[Ieldra]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Didn't Kirkwall technically fall to magic anyways?

In my playthrough it was liberated from rogue templars.

The templars have some claim to having won. The Kirkwall Circle is no more, no more Circle mages remain in the city, while some templars are left, and I guess many of those who chose for the mages still killed Anders - so the man who destroyed the Chantry building is dead.

There's just the inconvenient fact of many mages escaping and triggering a war - and the irony that the only mages left in the city are apostates in hiding, possibly with a higher prevalence of blood mages among them than the Circle ever had.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense. The cure for Tranquility would require a stable political enviroment to be introduced to. Kirkwall falling to magic would create such a ****storm that the Thedosian attitude towards amgic would be set back several hundred years. Better to crackdown hard on it, so to more easily introduce a solution later down the road.

Didn't Kirkwall technically fall to magic anyways?

In my playthrough it was liberated from rogue templars.

The templars have some claim to having won. The Kirkwall Circle is no more, no more Circle mages remain in the city, while some templars are left, and I guess many of those who chose for the mages still killed Anders - so the man who destroyed the Chantry building is dead.

There's just the inconvenient fact of many mages escaping and triggering a war - and the irony that the only mages left in the city are apostates in hiding, possibly with a higher prevalence of blood mages among them than the Circle ever had.

Mages only escape if Hawke sides with the Mages. Otherwise the Templars captures or kills them all.