1858 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You mages, always underestimating the little guy.

Dfeating 1 opponent?!?!?!?! thats for amatures!  We can take out multiple targets at once

Defeating the most powerful mage ever seen in the DA setting ranks a bit higher than killing a few bare chested qunari who were standing around in a tightly packed formation.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

To be fair, lorewise unless the armor and shield were Lyrium infused, the fireball would probably cook the warrior alive, if he chose to facetank it.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To be fair, lorewise unless the armor and shield were Lyrium infused, the fireball would probably cook the warrior alive, if he chose to facetank it.

Wouldn't that depend upon the temperature plus the exposure time?
A flamethrower like, constant spew of fire would likely produce those effects, given time. But a ball of fire that largely  disperses into small flames upon contact and didn't even harm the Qunari that were two steps away from the targeted area might be tankable, no?
Maybe I'm understimating fire but, judging from that video, that particular spell doesn't seem all that dangerous.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To be fair, lorewise unless the armor and shield were Lyrium infused, the fireball would probably cook the warrior alive, if he chose to facetank it.

Wouldn't that depend upon the temperature plus the exposure time?
A flamethrower like, constant spew of fire would likely produce those effects, given time. But a ball of fire that largely  disperses into small flames upon contact and didn't even harm the Qunari that were two steps away from the targeted area might be tankable, no?
Maybe I'm understimating fire but, judging from that video, that particular spell doesn't seem all that dangerous.

It also depends on whether the blast throws the Qunari. That particular effect of the spell doesn't seem to do damage in-game, but irl? Something like that would put you pretty high on the "treat this guy immediately" list, or else just put you on the "nothing to be done for him" list.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 décembre 2013 - 12:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To be fair, lorewise unless the armor and shield were Lyrium infused, the fireball would probably cook the warrior alive, if he chose to facetank it.

Wouldn't that depend upon the temperature plus the exposure time?
A flamethrower like, constant spew of fire would likely produce those effects, given time. But a ball of fire that largely  disperses into small flames upon contact and didn't even harm the Qunari that were two steps away from the targeted area might be tankable, no?
Maybe I'm understimating fire but, judging from that video, that particular spell doesn't seem all that dangerous.

Considering the size of the fireball it would ahve to burn at a consdierable temperature, most likely lethal. Of course the amount of time the target is exposed to the fire would play a huge part in it. However since he in this case is clad in metal plates, he is at a clear disadvantage. Also, we know from Anders' short story that, some mages at least, can produce flames hot enough to melt the armor of Templars, which are even infused with lyrium to resist magic.

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Considering the size of the fireball it would ahve to burn at a consdierable temperature, most likely lethal. Of course the amount of time the target is exposed to the fire would play a huge part in it. However since he in this case is clad in metal plates, he is at a clear disadvantage.

That fireballs last, basically, for a second. While the metal plates would heat, they would also protect the wearer from being burned by the attack itself. If we assume the warrior would get hit one time only before closing the distance, would that be enough for the individual to be cooked alive?

They actually did something like this in the game.


The Templar did have to be saved by a comrade but he survived. Not that he is facetanking it.

Also, we know from Anders' short story that, some mages at least, can produce flames hot enough to melt the armor of Templars, which are even infused with lyrium to resist magic.

Well, he was an Abomination at that point. They're on an entirely different level.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 décembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Considering the size of the fireball it would ahve to burn at a consdierable temperature, most likely lethal. Of course the amount of time the target is exposed to the fire would play a huge part in it. However since he in this case is clad in metal plates, he is at a clear disadvantage.

That fireballs last, basically, for a second. While the metal plates would heat, they would also protect the wearer from being burned by the attack itself. If we assume the warrior would get hit one time only before closing the distance, would that be enough for the individual to be cooked alive?

They actually did something like this in the game.


The Templar did have to be saved by a comrade but he survived. Not that he is facetanking it.

Also, we know from Anders' short story that, some mages at least, can produce flames hot enough to melt the armor of Templars, which are even infused with lyrium to resist magic.

Well, he was an Abomination at that point. They're on an entirely different level.

You really don't wanna take a fireball to the face, no matter how short of an amount of time you are exposed to the fire. Flame burns at around 1000 degree in charcoal (celsius), now I am gonna bet that magical fire is not just some burning charcoal beeing tossed at you (even though that would hurt as all hell aswell), but lets say it burns at a common incendiary grenade, which burns at around 2000 degrees. Even as short an exposure as 2 seconds on bare skin would leave the skin charred and burnt (third degree burns) at this temperature. Iron's melting point is at around 1200 degrees if I recall correctly, so an exposure to double that temperature for even a few seconds, would leave the metal red hot, and would literally cook the soldier within alive.

Then we also have to take into consideration the amount of force behind the fireball. A Qunari are physically superior beings to huamns, able to withstand far more physical punishment than a human could ever hope to survive, and even tehy were knocked down by the fireball. That means the fireball could probably reach the same amount of newton as a charging horse. I say this assuming that primordial Qunari probably used their horns in dueling each other for dominance, which would mean their skeletons would ahve developed to be able to withstand large amounts of applied force, and remain standing.

So to summarize, if a normal warrior, with no magical armor or Lyrium enhanced magical resistance, were to simply facetank a fireball, he would most probably lorewise, be cooked alive, if not straight up burned to a crisp.

[MisterJB]

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on the matter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 décembre 2013 - 12:32 .

[Lord Raijin]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...
Don't annoy them. They might all unite and form a posse. Then things might get a little unpleasant.

I like to see them try. No matter what mages will always reach on top

Let's not try to make a new Tevinter on the BSN. You don't want be to get my lyrium brand, don't you ?

How long can you go without lyrium? A week? two weeks? How long can you go without it before your mind goes insane?

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I dunno. It depends on the posse, the mages, and how well each one uses what it has.

Mages always win. In the Elders Scrolls mages of the Aldmeri Domination essentinally has the Empire of Tamerial by the leash with the White-Gold Concordat, and the Templars and the Chantry forces mages to be confined in the Circle of Magi because they fear them, and fear is far more dangerous.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, at least mages will never
be as powerful as the psykers of the Imperium of Man. At least Thedas
got that going for it.

Keep telling yourself that Templar.

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You mages, always underestimating the little guy.

Dfeating 1 opponent?!?!?!?! thats for amatures!  We can take out multiple targets at once

Defeating the most powerful mage ever seen in the DA setting ranks a bit higher than killing a few bare chested qunari who were standing around in a tightly packed formation.

I find it hard to believe that the most powerful mage ever seen in DA was defeated by someone who was shooting a bunch of arrows (Don't you ever run out? Seems like in DA you have unlimited source of arrows).. or with daggers and a person with a giant size sword.

What we saw was gameplay, nothing more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Mages always win. In the Elders Scrolls mages of the Aldmeri Domination essentinally has the Empire of Tamerial by the leash with the White-Gold Concordat, and the Templars and the Chantry forces mages to be confined in the Circle of Magi because they fear them, and fear is far more dangerous.

Except the Redguards of Hammerfell who a distinctly NOT mages, beat the snot out of the Aldmerri Dominion on their own...

Lord Raijin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, at least mages will never
be as powerful as the psykers of the Imperium of Man. At least Thedas
got that going for it.

Keep telling yourself that Templar.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Psykers in Warhammer 40k are potentially powerful on a galactic scale. A mage in Thedas is barely even on a provincial scale in power, and even then only when possessed by a demon.
If mages were ever to get as powerful as Warhammer 40k psykers, there wouldn't even be a discussion, they would all have to be culled, or Thedas would be destroyed.

Lord Raijin wrote...

I find it hard to believe that the most powerful mage ever seen in DA was defeated by someone who was shooting a bunch of arrows (Don't you ever run out? Seems like in DA you have unlimited source of arrows).. or with daggers and a person with a giant size sword.

What we saw was gameplay, nothing more. 

Except taht if you play HAwke as a warrior then he DID defeat Corypheus. There is nothing to debate about it. A warrior in this case, defeated one of the most powerful mages to have ever lived.

Now go cry your salty mage-tears somewhere else.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:29 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I dunno. It depends on the posse, the mages, and how well each one uses what it has.

Mages always win. In the Elders Scrolls mages of the Aldmeri Domination essentinally has the Empire of Tamerial by the leash with the White-Gold Concordat, and the Templars and the Chantry forces mages to be confined in the Circle of Magi because they fear them, and fear is far more dangerous.

There are a lot more mages in Tamriel than in Thedas, and teleportation is relatively easy in TES. The Thedasian Circles don't have that logistics easing technique, and while summoning Oblivion's version of demons can be done relatively safely, the Thedasian mages take their lives and minds in their hands every time they try it with the Fade's. Not to mention that the Thalmor aren't dependent on the group they're currently at war with for enchanting materials. And even despite those advantages the Thalmor are actually having trouble with the Redguards, from what I understand. In fact, I was under the impression that it was left ambigous whether the Empire had to bend over, or whether they just thought they did.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, at least mages will never
be as powerful as the psykers of the Imperium of Man. At least Thedas
got that going for it.

Keep telling yourself that Templar.

They're supposed to be the ones capable of single-handedly destroying a planet? Yeah, that's only possible in an interplanetary setting. Anywhere else it's a stupid power to bestow narratively.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Raijin wrote...

I find it hard to believe that the most powerful mage ever seen in DA was defeated by someone who was shooting a bunch of arrows (Don't you ever run out? Seems like in DA you have unlimited source of arrows).. or with daggers and a person with a giant size sword.

What we saw was gameplay, nothing more.

You find it hard to believe that something pointy going into someone's chest is lethal, in a setting where magic is deliberately nerfed to not be story-breaking?

(Though you're right in that Corypheus survived. It's just because of Hawke's idiocy and a modicum of cunning from said mage rather than it just being Cory's power. Like I said, who wins depends to a large degree on who uses their advantages better.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They're supposed to be the ones capable of single-handedly destroying a planet? Yeah, that's only possible in an interplanetary setting. Anywhere else it's a stupid power to bestow narratively.

Well only some of them. But ALL of them are cosntantly at danger of becomming possessed by daemons. And these daemons are a whole lot more dangerous than the demons in Thedas. But yes, the few Alpha level psykers
who are in existance, are capable of tearing a planet apart, in several different ways even. Both figuratively and literally.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

I find it hard to believe that the most powerful mage ever seen in DA was defeated by someone who was shooting a bunch of arrows (Don't you ever run out? Seems like in DA you have unlimited source of arrows).. or with daggers and a person with a giant size sword.

What we saw was gameplay, nothing more.

You find it hard to believe that something pointy going into someone's chest is lethal, in a setting where magic is deliberately nerfed to not be story-breaking?

(Though you're right in that Corypheus survived. It's just because of Hawke's idiocy and a modicum of cunning from said mage rather than it just being Cory's power. Like I said, who wins depends to a large degree on who uses their advantages better.)

To be fair to Hawke, he shouldn't be expected to hold knowledge of some sort of ancient conciousness transfer spell, or the Darkspawn/Archdemon survival method, depending on whichever it was Corypheus used to survive.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:42 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

I want note that TES mages are far more powerful than da mages they can do more than just throw fireball they have
teleportation , levitation , walking on water or spells that cause destruction of a large area.In thedas mages are just guys that can set someone on fire and have so many flaws that it is no wonder that they lost almost every their fight in practice magic take you more than give.


And yes hawke defeated corry that shows that it is not so hard for trained warrior or even easier for rogue who runs on speed and quick attacks defeat and mages without blood magic or without becoming abomnation are rather weak mage can be useful only on long-range and when enemy can't attack from a distance. 
 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Teleportation does not make TES mages more powerful. Teleportation is IMPOSSIBLE in the DA setting, which means that you can't compare the two. If you were to move a TES mage into Thedas, who wouldn't be able teleport, since it would break the laws of magic and physics in Thedas.
And generally speaking TES amges are about on par with DA mages. THough there are a lot more TES mages, and they don't have to suffer the drawback of demons haunting them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Teleportation does not make TES mages more powerful. Teleportation is IMPOSSIBLE in the DA setting, which means that you can't compare the two. If you were to move a TES mage into Thedas, who wouldn't be able teleport, since it would break the laws of magic and physics in Thedas.

Since my answer to Raijin's analogy doesn't require actually moving a TES mage into Thedas, I don't think this answers that.

And generally speaking TES amges are about on par with DA mages. THough there are a lot more TES mages, and they don't have to suffer the drawback of demons haunting them.

You're forgetting all the logistical things DA mages can't do and TES ones can. Which was much of our point.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Teleportation does not make TES mages more powerful. Teleportation is IMPOSSIBLE in the DA setting, which means that you can't compare the two. If you were to move a TES mage into Thedas, who wouldn't be able teleport, since it would break the laws of magic and physics in Thedas.
And generally speaking TES amges are about on par with DA mages. THough there are a lot more TES mages, and they don't have to suffer the drawback of demons haunting them.

Yep teleporation makes you more powerful because it is another power (quite powerful) you can use it is meaningless that mages can't teleport in thedas we are talking about power that mages have not what will happened if mage from tes will end in da universe.Magic in da is weaker because it doesn't offers such possibilities as tes magic in tes mage have possibility to become walking desctruction if powerful even physical god in rare cases but sill in thedas that just mean you can throw fireball (and we only saw more powerful mages capable do that.

 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And yes hawke defeated corry that shows that it is not so hard for trained warrior or even easier for rogue who runs on speed and quick attacks defeat and mages without blood magic or without becoming abomnation are rather weak mage can be useful only on long-range and when enemy can't attack from a distance. 
 

What "not hard?" Isn't that the one that drives the fans up the wall? The one even Varric can't believe they walked away from? 

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 décembre 2013 - 01:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Teleportation does not make TES mages more powerful. Teleportation is IMPOSSIBLE in the DA setting, which means that you can't compare the two. If you were to move a TES mage into Thedas, who wouldn't be able teleport, since it would break the laws of magic and physics in Thedas.

Since my answer to Raijin's analogy doesn't require actually moving a TES mage into Thedas, I don't think this answers that.

And generally speaking TES amges are about on par with DA mages. THough there are a lot more TES mages, and they don't have to suffer the drawback of demons haunting them.

You're forgetting all the logistical things DA mages can't do and TES ones can. Which was much of our point.

I don't really included logistical aspects of TES mages into the power scale. Besides the only documented logistical advantage a TES mage holds is that he may be able to teleport something, though to my knowledge teleportation is rare in TES.
But to hold something like teleportation, which is decidedly impossible in DA; as an advantage for the TES mages, is an unfair, if not dishonest, comparisson.
So far, beyond the teleportation differnece, the mages of TES and the mages of DA, have largely the same capabilities. You could argue that mages in TES gets their power more readily and easily, since they don't have to worry about demons, but that doesn't make their magics (or magicka whatever) more powerful. It just makes it more accesible.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 décembre 2013 - 02:01 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And yes hawke defeated corry that shows that it is not so hard for trained warrior or even easier for rogue who runs on speed and quick attacks defeat and mages without blood magic or without becoming abomnation are rather weak mage can be useful only on long-range and when enemy can't attack from a distance. 
 

What "not hard?" Isn't that the one that drives the fans up the wall? The one even Varric can't believe they walked away from? 

I wasn't talking about corry and well i was in a sense.I meant that if non-mage can beat most powerful mage just by being dexterous or just block his spells with shield theat mean that well trained bard or fighter can kill them like leliana for example. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


And generally speaking TES amges are about on par with DA mages. THough there are a lot more TES mages, and they don't have to suffer the drawback of demons haunting them

I don't really included logistical aspects of TES mages into the power scale. Besides the only documented logistical advantage a TES mage holds is that he may be able to teleport something, though to my knowledge teleportation is rare in TES.
But to hold something like teleportation, which is decidedly impossible in DA; as an advantage for the TES mages, is an unfair, if not dishonest, comparisson.
So far, beyond the teleportation differnece, the mages of TES and the mages of DA, have largely the same capabilities. You could argue that mages in TES gets their power more readily and easily, since they don't have to worry about demons, but that doesn't make their magics (or magicka whatever) more powerful. It just makes it more accesible.

Hey, Raijin was the one comparing them. I was just pointing out the flaws in the comparison.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 décembre 2013 - 02:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Teleportation does not make TES mages more powerful. Teleportation is IMPOSSIBLE in the DA setting, which means that you can't compare the two. If you were to move a TES mage into Thedas, who wouldn't be able teleport, since it would break the laws of magic and physics in Thedas.
And generally speaking TES amges are about on par with DA mages. THough there are a lot more TES mages, and they don't have to suffer the drawback of demons haunting them.

Yep teleporation makes you more powerful because it is another power (quite powerful) you can use it is meaningless that mages can't teleport in thedas we are talking about power that mages have not what will happened if mage from tes will end in da universe.Magic in da is weaker because it doesn't offers such possibilities as tes magic in tes mage have possibility to become walking desctruction if powerful even physical god in rare cases but sill in thedas that just mean you can throw fireball (and we only saw more powerful mages capable do that.

Only an extremely few amount of the amges in TES ever accomplishes such a thing. So disappearingly few, that as you try to paint them as the norm, that they should be seen as anomalies in TES. The common mage in TES, are about on par in capabilities as a DA mage, that is the long and short of it. You can argue that magicka in TES has more potential than magic in DA, and I'd be inclined to agree. But the general mage in both settings are about on about the same place on the scale.
And also remember that even the most powerful mages in both settings are still fully capable of getting the snot beaten out of them by a common man.

[Br3admax]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You mages, always underestimating the little guy.

The mage one was better. Also, the rogue is just and overhyped character with just about any general action, which all require flips apparently. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yep teleporation makes you more powerful because it is another power (quite powerful) you can use it is meaningless that mages can't teleport in thedas we are talking about power that mages have not what will happened if mage from tes will end in da universe.Magic in da is weaker because it doesn't offers such possibilities as tes magic in tes mage have possibility to become walking desctruction if powerful even physical god in rare cases but sill in thedas that just mean you can throw fireball (and we only saw more powerful mages capable do that.

Only an extremely few amount of the amges in TES ever accomplishes such a thing. So disappearingly few, that as you try to paint them as the norm, that they should be seen as anomalies in TES. The common mage in TES, are about on par in capabilities as a DA mage, that is the long and short of it. You can argue that magicka in TES has more potential than magic in DA, and I'd be inclined to agree. But the general mage in both settings are about on about the same place on the scale.

They don't need to all be capable of it for a logistical boost. It just needs to be easy enough to find them that a country known for being the most magically powerful in what used to be the Empire can find a few, and then you're moving food or soldiers or even just messages faster than you ought to be able to. And given that Morrowind had them, it seems to me Summerset Isle would too.

As for the common mages being roughly equal in power, don't forget that in addition to the fact that daedra don't seek out mages as viciously as demons, they are much easier to control. So that's a major power boost to them.

Which was my main point in introducing all this: TES magic allows possibilities that DA magic is less generous with (since Conjuration and Teleportation are possible in DA, they're just really dangerous and incredibly rare respectively), and therefore comparing the Thalmor dominance over the Empire (which is an oversimplification anyway) to the Circles fighting the Templars isn't fair.

Edit: On the other hand, Komandor Sheperd is massively overstating this discrepancy. He states that a mage PC in TES will end up as a physical god, and he's not wrong. You should see my Breton. Just the same, you should also see my Amell.

And also remember that even the most powerful mages in both settings are still fully capable of getting the snot beaten out of them by a common man.

I wouldn't describe the people capable of this as common, but you're right to say that magic isn't strictly necessary to take down a mage in either setting.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 décembre 2013 - 03:23 .