1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm understanding, if not sympathetic, to Orsino's position, but it's disingenuous to suggest he was just a victim suffering under Meredith when he did, in his own way, contribute to the situation.

How exactly did he "contribute" to the situation? He didn't resort to blood magic until after Meredith started her Annulment.

Because if he'd bitten the bullet and informed her when he realized what Quentin was, Meredith would have had a serial killer to parade around, but that killer wouldn't have gotten the mother of the city's new hero. What Orsino did with that plan was to give Meredith more corpses to show off, including one with a really famous relative. I'm not saying that worked out well for anyone except Quentin, though. All I'm saying is Orsino was kind of in a tight spot.

Indeed he deliberately made the situation more convuluted and complicated by failing to reveal what he knew about that Mad man and his research.

He really should have just followed circle regulation and informed the templars of a known aspotate.

Who knows how that would effected things, for one Hawke most certainly wouldn't have lost his/her mother.

[DPSSOC]

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Yeah I'm understanding, if not sympathetic, to Orsino's position, but it's disingenuous to suggest he was just a victim suffering under Meredith when he did, in his own way, contribute to the situation.

How exactly did he "contribute" to the situation? He didn't resort to blood magic until after Meredith started her Annulment.

In short, refusing to be helpful.  I'm not saying he should have gone along with everything Meredith wanted, but an authourity figure is less likely to resort to force as a first resort if they feel there's a good chance of cooperation.  Orsino not only covered up for criminal actions (even if only by not reporting them), he obstructed investigations into criminal actions.  If the First Enchanter refuses to assist in policing mages Meredith has no reason to believe any other mage will so she has to apply greater pressure to force compliance.

And what good what it have done to tell her? Meredith would have sunk him like a stone, no questions asked.

We don't know that.  Quentin probably but he could have brought the conspirators to her attention without being implicated.  He could have let her do her job and look for Blood Magic practitioners he knew were there. All Orsino ever did was get in Meredith's way and as such was dismissed as obstinate, had he cooperated on occasion his objections stop being the knee jerk reaction of someone who's getting in her way for it's own sake and become legitimate concerns.

[Hellion Rex]

DPSSOC wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Because if he'd bitten the bullet and informed her when he realized what Quentin was, Meredith would have had a serial killer to parade around, but that killer wouldn't have gotten the mother of the city's new hero. What Orsino did with that plan was to give Meredith more corpses to show off, including one with a really famous relative.

Meredith would have begun to squeeze even tighter on the Mages in response. Unfortunately, even though we don't know the exact depth of his relationship with Quentin, if Orsino had fessed up, Meredith would have sunk him like a stone. Their falling out was an inevitable occurence. I'm not saying Orsino was a victim, not by any stretch of the imagination, but he did not actually do anything until Meredith struck first.

You don't need to take action to contribute to a tense situation, inaction at the wrong time contributes as well.

Touche. Fair point.

[Hellion Rex]

DPSSOC wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Yeah I'm understanding, if not sympathetic, to Orsino's position, but it's disingenuous to suggest he was just a victim suffering under Meredith when he did, in his own way, contribute to the situation.

How exactly did he "contribute" to the situation? He didn't resort to blood magic until after Meredith started her Annulment.

In short, refusing to be helpful.  I'm not saying he should have gone along with everything Meredith wanted, but an authourity figure is less likely to resort to force as a first resort if they feel there's a good chance of cooperation.  Orsino not only covered up for criminal actions (even if only by not reporting them), he obstructed investigations into criminal actions.  If the First Enchanter refuses to assist in policing mages Meredith has no reason to believe any other mage will so she has to apply greater pressure to force compliance.

And what good what it have done to tell her? Meredith would have sunk him like a stone, no questions asked.

We don't know that.  Quentin probably but he could have brought the conspirators to her attention without being implicated.  He could have let her do her job and look for Blood Magic practitioners he knew were there. All Orsino ever did was get in Meredith's way and as such was dismissed as obstinate, had he cooperated on occasion his objections stop being the knee jerk reaction of someone who's getting in her way for it's own sake and become legitimate concerns.

Even if he had managed to tell her what was going on without implicating himself, Meredith still would have been squeezing the mages tighter, just in case there were more trying to slip between her fingers. However, he could indeed have been less stubborn about dealing with her. Even though it wouldn't have made a difference in the end, he didn't do anything to help matter either.

[Steelcan]

this thread is still open?

Our SEVERE derailment didn't get it axed?

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm understanding, if not sympathetic, to Orsino's position, but it's disingenuous to suggest he was just a victim suffering under Meredith when he did, in his own way, contribute to the situation.

How exactly did he "contribute" to the situation? He didn't resort to blood magic until after Meredith started her Annulment.

Because if he'd bitten the bullet and informed her when he realized what Quentin was, Meredith would have had a serial killer to parade around, but that killer wouldn't have gotten the mother of the city's new hero. What Orsino did with that plan was to give Meredith more corpses to show off, including one with a really famous relative. I'm not saying that worked out well for anyone except Quentin, though. All I'm saying is Orsino was kind of in a tight spot.

She also could've used that as justification to treat all mages even worse. And she would've.

[Vit246]

Here's my two cents on the whole Orsino / Quentin / whatever.

Orsino's connection to Quentin was frankly contrived and stupid and its only purpose in DA2 was to inflame and prejudice Hawke and skew portrayals of mages and turn Orsino into not only a nonsense boss fight but a nonsense harvester / abomination and whatever else in Bioware's personal quest / grudge against players who sided with DAO mages. They tried too hard and didn't understand how to find a grey area in the traditional black and white dichotomy that they've always relied upon for many of their games.

That is all.

Modifié par Vit246, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[wolfhowwl]

Pretty much.

Characters like Decimus, Quentin, Ser Alrik, and to a lesser extent Ser Karras are poorly written characters in a poorly written game.

I hope such hamfisted work was the result of an unreasonable development schedule and not what Bioware truly envisioned for the game.

I am sure I wasn't the only person who didn't find Naz! rapist Templars and insane serial killer mages very compelling.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm understanding, if not sympathetic, to Orsino's position, but it's disingenuous to suggest he was just a victim suffering under Meredith when he did, in his own way, contribute to the situation.

How exactly did he "contribute" to the situation? He didn't resort to blood magic until after Meredith started her Annulment.

Because if he'd bitten the bullet and informed her when he realized what Quentin was, Meredith would have had a serial killer to parade around, but that killer wouldn't have gotten the mother of the city's new hero. What Orsino did with that plan was to give Meredith more corpses to show off, including one with a really famous relative. I'm not saying that worked out well for anyone except Quentin, though. All I'm saying is Orsino was kind of in a tight spot.

She also could've used that as justification to treat all mages even worse. And she would've.

I know. But I'm under the impression that she did anyway, (I think she gives a remark towards the beginning of Act III justifying her behavior using Quentin?) and that all Orsino's delaying did in the end was delay it long enough for more victims to be killed, including the mother of the future most beloved person in the city.

[Hellion Rex]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I know. But I'm under the impression that she did anyway, (I think she gives a remark towards the beginning of Act III justifying her behavior using Quentin?) and that all Orsino's delaying did in the end was delay it long enough for more victims to be killed, including the mother of the future most beloved person in the city.

Indeed. She did use the example of Quentin, and in response I wanted to BBQ her a**.
And who is to say that telling her would have prevented more victims? Heck, if she had pressed hard enough, if Orsino had told her in Act 2 or before, then she might have even called for preemptive Annulment, and then our Hawke might not have been able to step in to mediate, as we were not the Champion at the time.

[DPSSOC]

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I know. But I'm under the impression that she did anyway, (I think she gives a remark towards the beginning of Act III justifying her behavior using Quentin?) and that all Orsino's delaying did in the end was delay it long enough for more victims to be killed, including the mother of the future most beloved person in the city.

Indeed. She did use the example of Quentin, and in response I wanted to BBQ her a**.
And who is to say that telling her would have prevented more victims? Heck, if she had pressed hard enough, if Orsino had told her in Act 2 or before, then she might have even called for preemptive Annulment, and then our Hawke might not have been able to step in to mediate, as we were not the Champion at the time.

But Elthina still could.  Remember she rejected a number of calls for Annulment in Act 3

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
And what good what it have done to tell her? Meredith would have sunk him like a stone, no questions asked.

Even if it wouldn't have contributed to a more amicable relationship between KC and FE, it could have lead to less animosity between mages and templars who weren't having their minds warped by Red Lyrium.
Ultimately, I also believe there is a principle at stake here. If mage want to be trusted with more freedoms or even to police themselves, then the first step should be taking responsability for when one of their kind steps out of line.
What Orsino did was send all those middle aged women to the sacrificial altar (literally) so that the mages wouldn't be harmed. If he places mages above the rest of the city, then he has no ground to stand when Meredith chooses to do the same.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
And what good what it have done to tell her? Meredith would have sunk him like a stone, no questions asked.

Even if it wouldn't have contributed to a more amicable relationship between KC and FE, it could have lead to less animosity between mages and templars who weren't having their minds warped by Red Lyrium.
Ultimately, I also believe there is a principle at stake here. If mage want to be trusted with more freedoms or even to police themselves, then the first step should be taking responsability for when one of their kind steps out of line.
What Orsino did was send all those middle aged women to the sacrificial altar (literally) so that the mages wouldn't be harmed. If he places mages above the rest of the city, then he has no ground to stand when Meredith chooses to do the same.

Don't get me wrong, Mr. JB. I am not defending that ass. If I had known sooner that he knew Quentin, he would have fried, no questions asked. He killed my mother, or at least my Hawke's mother, through his inaction. But in the grand scheme of things, we are playing a game of what ifs. While it is possible that it could have led to less animosity between mages and templars, if Orsino had confessed sooner, it could have also done the reverse as well. The relationship between this Knight Commander and this particular First Enchanter was doomed from the get go, on both sides. Orsino was too stubborn and Meredith was just plain bat**** crazy and paranoid. But you are definitely right in that both sides need to be more forthcoming in the future with each other. Otherwise, we are just going to end up right back where we started.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Lord Raijin]

DPSSOC wrote...
 
Poor Orsino?  You mean the man who unwittingly assisted a serial killer and then refused to inform anyone when he learned the truth?  The man who obstructed authourities from investigating criminal mages he knew were there?  The man who knew there was a potential conspiracy within the Circle against the Knight Commander and said nothing?  Yes, poor Orsino.  Look Meredith might have been the absolute worst Knight Commander in existence, but you can't give her grief for being gruff with Orsino when we're given no indication he made any attempt to be cooperative.

Do you know what would happen if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin? He would probably be branded as a blood mage; currupted, and Meredith would have all the edvience that she needs to inform the Grand Cleric and would R.O.A the entire circle over his actions. Every single mage including children would be slaughtered because of what he did. What Orsino did was wrong. The mages of the circle shouldn't be punished for the action of 1 Elf.

I don't remember Orsino obstructing the authorities from investigating criminal mages. In fact didn't Meredith told Emeric to end his investigation? Inside of Gascard DuPuis's mansion you'll find a letter that was written by Meredith herself apologizing to this man for what Emeric had done. Being told by his Knight-Commander to end his investigation Emeric refused, and had to rely outsiders for help.

If it wasn't for Emeric's persistance Quentin would still be murdering women. The Kirkwall guards failed the city and so did the Templars.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 08 décembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Hellion Rex]

My only issue with the whole confessing thing is, what if Orsino had done it in Act 1, before Meredith ever came into contact with the idol? For one, Elthina was there to put a stop to her before she was killed. But I am not too sure Meredith would have had enough power to get around a Grand Cleric to actually Annul the Gallows. Act 2 and afterwards, yeah, I feel like she would have been paranoid to attempt it, no matter what the Grand Cleric thought. Act 1 and before, I don't think she necessarily would have.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

My only issue with the whole confessing thing is, what if Orsino had done it in Act 1, before Meredith ever came into contact with the idol? For one, Elthina was there to put a stop to her before she was killed. But I am not too sure Meredith would have had enough power to get around a Grand Cleric to actually Annul the Gallows. Act 2 and afterwards, yeah, I feel like she would have been paranoid to attempt it, no matter what the Grand Cleric thought. Act 1 and before, I don't think she necessarily would have.

I feel like Meredith had plenty of political power in Act 1 as well, since she's the one who gave the City-Guard the orders to sort out the refugees and keep them from entering the city, and the guard tells Hawke that she's the power in Kirkwall.

I speculate that if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin from Act 1, she may have been more receptive, but it's equally likely that it wouldn't make any difference.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I feel like Meredith had plenty of political power in Act 1 as well, since she's the one who gave the City-Guard the orders to sort out the refugees and keep them from entering the city, and the guard tells Hawke that she's the power in Kirkwall.

I speculate that if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin from Act 1, she may have been more receptive, but it's equally likely that it wouldn't make any difference.

Political power aside though, Meredith seemed to respect Elthina's authority throughout most of the game, and not until Act 3 was Meredith more visibly frustrated with Elthina's mediation.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I feel like Meredith had plenty of political power in Act 1 as well, since she's the one who gave the City-Guard the orders to sort out the refugees and keep them from entering the city, and the guard tells Hawke that she's the power in Kirkwall.

I speculate that if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin from Act 1, she may have been more receptive, but it's equally likely that it wouldn't make any difference.

Political power aside though, Meredith seemed to respect Elthina's authority throughout most of the game, and not until Act 3 was Meredith more visibly frustrated with Elthina's mediation.

I don't know. We don't see Meredith interact with Elthina anywhere but Act 3.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I feel like Meredith had plenty of political power in Act 1 as well, since she's the one who gave the City-Guard the orders to sort out the refugees and keep them from entering the city, and the guard tells Hawke that she's the power in Kirkwall.

I speculate that if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin from Act 1, she may have been more receptive, but it's equally likely that it wouldn't make any difference.

Political power aside though, Meredith seemed to respect Elthina's authority throughout most of the game, and not until Act 3 was Meredith more visibly frustrated with Elthina's mediation.

I don't know. We don't see Meredith interact with Elthina anywhere but Act 3.

Crap. Point.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I like how everyone just jumps the gun completely and base their statements that Meredith would ahve punished Orsino for turning in Quentin. You are basing that ludicrous claim on exactly what information? Something that ORSINO says? Yeah.... That doesn't hold any water.

Matter of fact is, that if Orsino had just been doing his job from the START of his career, then maybe, just maybe, the Tempalrs would have had a reason to trust the mages of Kirkwall. Instead, he chose to be an obstacle for the Templars from day one, and refused to cooperate. No wonder that Meredith and the Templars were getting tired of that little man's bull****.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I like how everyone just jumps the gun completely and base their statements that Meredith would ahve punished Orsino for turning in Quentin. You are basing that ludicrous claim on exactly what information? Something that ORSINO says? Yeah.... That doesn't hold any water.

Matter of fact is, that if Orsino had just been doing his job from the START of his career, then maybe, just maybe, the Tempalrs would have had a reason to trust the mages of Kirkwall. Instead, he chose to be an obstacle for the Templars from day one, and refused to cooperate. No wonder that Meredith and the Templars were getting tired of that little man's bull****.

Do tell us how he had failed to do his job, other than not telling Meredith about Quentin. And quit attempting to pin all the blame on him, either. Sure he didn't make things easier, but Meredith was hardly doing much better, idol or no idol. And notice too, that I did say that we DON'T know what would have happened if he had told her about Quentin. It could have made things better, or done the exact opposite.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Vulpe]

Meredith was a fanatical tyrant and Orsino was a cowardly punk.I don't understant why people try to make one or the other seem better than the other one.

They are the reason why Kirkwalls mage-templar situation was that bad.They both were poor leaders that couldn't fight against their own instincts so that they would respect the laws,they both permited the existance of insane individuals and abuses of power ( either templars abusing their authority or mages abusing their magic powers) and both had a huge ego, thing proved by their unwilingness to work together and by the fact that they always blamed the other one for the situation Kirkwall was facing, without ever considering that they might be wrong.

Look at Irving and Gregoir. That's how a Knight Commander - First Enchanter relationship should be.

Meredith and Orsino were just a pair of pricks.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 08 décembre 2013 - 05:13 .

[DPSSOC]

Lord Raijin wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Poor Orsino?  You mean the man who unwittingly assisted a serial killer and then refused to inform anyone when he learned the truth?  The man who obstructed authourities from investigating criminal mages he knew were there?  The man who knew there was a potential conspiracy within the Circle against the Knight Commander and said nothing?  Yes, poor Orsino.  Look Meredith might have been the absolute worst Knight Commander in existence, but you can't give her grief for being gruff with Orsino when we're given no indication he made any attempt to be cooperative.

Do you know what would happen if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin? He would probably be branded as a blood mage; currupted, and Meredith would have all the edvience that she needs to inform the Grand Cleric and would R.O.A the entire circle over his actions. Every single mage including children would be slaughtered because of what he did.  What Orsino did was wrong. The mages of the circle shouldn't be punished for the action of 1 Elf.

Again until Anders actions in Act 3 Meredith still would have had to go through Elthina.  Yes Orsino probably would have been punished, likely killed, and Meredith would have cracked down harder on the mages, which she ended up doing anyway, but we've no reason to believe Quentin would have been enough to get Elthina to ok Annulment when gangs of blood mages were not. 

Lord Raijin wrote...
I don't remember Orsino obstructing the authorities from investigating criminal mages.

 
What would you call denying a lawful search of the Circle.

[Hellion Rex]

DPSSOC wrote...
 
What would you call denying a lawful search of the Circle.

If she had really had had any proof, she would have already gone straight through Orsino. In matters investigating possible maleficar, she wouldn't have needed Orsino's permission.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[Medhia Nox]

@JullianWellpit: SO well said.

I'd say DA2 was an homage to poor leadership all round.