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[TK514]

It's interesting how everyone forgets, when vilifying Meredith as unreasonable and sure to condemn the entire circle when one person admits he knows an apostate malificarum, that there's a point later in game where she can beg Hawke to give her a reason to trust Mages. Beg for a reason to be less harsh.

Had Orsino been less obstructionist, it would have not only given her less reasons to crack down, but given him ammunition to use against her when she started being unreasonable. If she searches and finds nothing, then the next time he can say "What do you expect to find this time that you didn't before?" Every time she searched and found nothing would have made his position stronger.

But Orsino couldn't do that, could he? He couldn't let her search, because he knew he'd let his Circle go rotten to the core. He knew that if she looked, she would absolutely find the dirty secrets that would doom him and his cohorts. And in the end, Orsino shows his true colors and lets everyone know that the only thing that matters to Orsino is himself and what he thinks is best. He was no better than Uldred, he was just too cowardly to take the final step until it was too late.

Modifié par TK514, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[Medhia Nox]

@TK514: Orsino's also a good case of why it's even unacceptable to allow the "study" of Blood Magic.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
 
What would you call denying a lawful search of the Circle.

If she had really had had any proof, she would have already gone straight through Orsino. In matters investigating possible maleficar, she wouldn't have needed Orsino's permission.

Or maybe KCs just don't have as much power as assumed.
Plus, given the fact Hawke has unconvered a conspiracy involving blood mages and Abominations that used to be Circle mages, I don't believe a search of the Circle is all that uncalled for.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

It's interesting how everyone forgets, when vilifying Meredith as unreasonable and sure to condemn the entire circle when one person admits he knows an apostate malificarum, that there's a point later in game where she can beg Hawke to give her a reason to trust Mages. Beg for a reason to be less harsh.

Had Orsino been less obstructionist, it would have not only given her less reasons to crack down, but given him ammunition to use against her when she started being unreasonable. If she searches and finds nothing, then the next time he can say "What do you expect to find this time that you didn't before?" Every time she searched and found nothing would have made his position stronger.

But Orsino couldn't do that, could he? He couldn't let her search, because he knew he'd let his Circle go rotten to the core. He knew that if she looked, she would absolutely find the dirty secrets that would doom him and his cohorts. And in the end, Orsino shows his true colors and lets everyone know that the only thing that matters to Orsino is himself and what he thinks is best. He was no better than Uldred, he was just too cowardly to take the final step until it was too late.

Ok, notice that I said that, at least in my own post earlier, that we don't know how Meredith would have reacted, given Orsino's confession. She could have in turn made things easier or worse. We don't know. It's a game of what ifs a that point. Orsino was indeed stubborn out of his ass, and that made things worse. He certainly didn't have to such an obstruction, but if Meredith really wanted to, she could have easily gone around him to search the Tower. That is certainly within her purview as a Knight Commander searching for possible maleficarum activity. She wouldn't have needed his permission.

Number 2, "rotten to the core"? Really? Beyond his affiliation with Quentin, please explain to me how the Circle was rotten. One could easily make the same argument about how Meredith let some corrupt templars remain in power. And beyond that one letter to Quentin, how do we even know there was something for Meredith to even find in the Gallows? I will say though that at the end, it came down to a gigantic pissing match between him and Meredith.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:41 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@TK514: Orsino's also a good case of why it's even unacceptable to allow the "study" of Blood Magic.

Study of blood magic is what gave us the Litany of Adralla.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
 
What would you call denying a lawful search of the Circle.

If she had really had had any proof, she would have already gone straight through Orsino. In matters investigating possible maleficar, she wouldn't have needed Orsino's permission.

Or maybe KCs just don't have as much power as assumed.
Plus, given the fact Hawke has unconvered a conspiracy involving blood mages and Abominations that used to be Circle mages, I don't believe a search of the Circle is all that uncalled for.

Which conspiracy, Grace's? And I am not saying that it was uncalled for, I am just saying that Meredith might not have actually found anything if she had attempted to search the Gallows.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Personally I think the city guard should have had more authority in a situation like the kirkwall circle, where the gallows were located directly within city limits and not, say, in the middle of a lake with only one way in or out. The captain of the city guard should have had the right to veto decisions of either the first enchanter or knight commander, and the authority to authorize searches and conduct searches of their own if the security of the city were possibly compromised by actions of the either two parties.

Instead of just having the city guards be the clean up crews who mop up after the mages and templars wage their turf war in the city streets.

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Personally I think the city guard should have had more authority in a situation like the kirkwall circle, where the gallows were located directly within city limits and not, say, in the middle of a lake with only one way in or out. The captain of the city guard should have had the right to veto decisions of either the first enchanter or knight commander, and the authority to authorize searches and conduct searches of their own if the security of the city were possibly compromised by actions of the either two parties.

Instead of just having the city guards be the clean up crews who mop up after the mages and templars wage their turf war in the city streets.

Considering Meredith took down the previous viscount after he attempted to oust the Templars, she made sure the Templars always held the greatest military power in Kirkwall. The captain of the city guard couldn't touch her.

Edit: Aveline even complains about the Guard lacks the ability to even requisition Templars for some extra manpower, let alone give them orders.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Number 2, "rotten to the core"? Really? Beyond his affiliation with Quentin, please explain to me how the Circle was rotten. One could easily make the same argument about how Meredith let some corrupt templars remain in power. And beyond that one letter to Quentin, how do we even know there was something for Meredith to even find in the Gallows? I will say though that at the end, it came down to a gigantic pissing match between him and Meredith.

Let's really analyze what happened the night the Circle was Annulled.
Meredith wants to search the Circle due to the great number of blood mages and Abominations that it seems to be producing (2 in the first quest in Act and Grace's whole group), Orsino refuses.
First important question: why refuse if he is innocent? Either Meredith won't find anything; in which case, his position will be strenghtened; or she will find some blood mages and punish them like they deserve.
Unless, of course, Orsino is a blood mage himself.

Then, Anders kills Elthina thus removing the only person preventing Meredith from doing whatever she pleased. She declares the Right of Annulment which Orsino contest. Regardless of Hawke's decision, Orsino runs to the Circle to warn the mages. However, was that all he wanted to do? 
When Meredith arrives, Orsino proposes a truce; he will allow her to search the Circle if she revokes the Right.
Second important question: Why not propose this imediatelly after the destruction of the Chantry? Why run to the Circle first?
What if the reason Orsino first ran to the Circle and only then proposed to allow Meredith's search because he had already concealed the evidence of his studies into blood magic.

During the fight in Kirkwall and the Circle proper, a great number of Circle mages summon and control demons; the demons are not hostile to them; as well as use other forms of blood magic.
Third important question: Did these mages truly learn how to summon and control demons in the timespan of a night with the threat of impending death affecting their concentration?
It seems more likely to me that they had been studying blood magic for some time before Ander's terrorist attack.

Finally, when Orsino himself is reached, he admits to having studied Quentin's notes but denies to have ever used blood magic before.
Fourth important question: If Orsino had never used blood magic before, how was he capable of mixing several different bodies together to create a perfectly funcional living tank?

Given all this evidence, it seems obvious to me that either Orsino was a blood mage who ahd been training other Circle mages for years or that he was so incompetent that he couldn't tell a great number of the mages under his jurisdiction were blood mages. Either way, the Circle is, clearly, rotten.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 décembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[SgtSteel91]

But the complex ritual turned him into a monster that attacked Templars and Hawk's party, if they supported the mages. So he didn't really know how it worked.

And if Orsino really was teaching Blood Magic to other mages, why was Bethany, if she was in the Circle, not a Blood Mage?

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 08 décembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Number 2, "rotten to the core"? Really? Beyond his affiliation with Quentin, please explain to me how the Circle was rotten. One could easily make the same argument about how Meredith let some corrupt templars remain in power. And beyond that one letter to Quentin, how do we even know there was something for Meredith to even find in the Gallows? I will say though that at the end, it came down to a gigantic pissing match between him and Meredith.

Let's really analyze what happened the night the Circle was Annulled.
Meredith wants to search the Circle due to the great number of blood mages and Abominations that it seems to be producing (2 in the first quest in Act and Grace's whole group), Orsino refuses.
First important question: why refuse if he is innocent? Either Meredith won't find anything; in which case, his position will be strenghtened; or she will find some blood mages and punish them like they deserve.
Unless, of course, Orsino is a blood mage himself.

Then, Anders kills Elthina thus removing the only person preventing Meredith from doing whatever she pleased. She declares the Right of Annulment which Orsino contest. Regardless of Hawke's decision, Orsino runs to the Circle to warn the mages. However, was that all he wanted to do? 
When Meredith arrives, Orsino proposes a truce; he will allow her to search the Circle if she revokes the Right.
Second important question: Why not propose this imediatelly after the destruction of the Chantry? Why run to the Circle first?
What if the reason Orsino first ran to the Circle and only then proposed to allow Meredith's search because he had already concealed the evidence of his studies into blood magic.

During the fight in Kirkwall and the Circle proper, a great number of Circle mages summon and control demons; the demons are not hostile to them; as well as use other forms of blood magic.
Third important question: Did these mages truly learn how to summon and control demons in the timespan of a night with the threat of impending death affecting their concentration?
It seems more likely to me that they had been studying blood magic for some time before Ander's terrorist attack.

Finally, when Orsino himself is reached, he admits to having studied Quentin's notes but denies to have ever used blood magic before.
Fourth important question: If Orsino had never used blood magic before, how was he capable of mixing several different bodies together to create a perfectly funcional living tank?

Ok, where to start. First, I am not going to contest the Grace issue. As for my own perceptions of why Orsino ran, I honestly think he was scared to death. In all of his time of baiting Meredith,  I don't think he ever really believed that she would actually invoke the Annulment. And also, nobody probably ever believed that Elthina would be removed so quickly and violently. Also, if he chose not to run, and Meredith detained/killed him while still desiring to perform an Annulment (she was out for blood at this point), then who could have warned the mages of their impending doom? They would have no idea as to what was happening or why they were suddenly to be Annuled. I won't deny that Orsino could have attempted to hide his involvement in any maleficar activity.

As for the many demons popping up out of nowhere, as you saw in the cutscene, a crap ton of magic was being invoked in a short span of time in a single location. The Veil was probably thin initally due to the Gallow's long bloody history, both before and during its tenure as a Circle. But once magic started being used en masse, then the Veil would have started tearing like wet tissue paper. Demons could then begin to cross physically and/or take advantage of many mages who were either distraught out of their minds or were looking for extra power to defend themselves. Granted, several obviously chose to turn to blood magic, as evidenced by the one on the docks and the a few within the Gallows itself. That being said, that is a few rotten apples as compared to an entirely rotten tree.

[Hellion Rex]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

But the complex ritual turned him into a monster that attacked Templars and Hawk's party, if they supported the mages. So he didn't really know how it worked.

And if Orsino really was teaching Blood Magic to other mages, why was Bethany, if she was in the Circle, not a Blood Mage?

If he was "teaching" blood magic, and that is a very big if, then she might not have been made aware of it, as she was a very recent addition to the Circle.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 07:15 .

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@TK514: Orsino's also a good case of why it's even unacceptable to allow the "study" of Blood Magic.

Study of blood magic is what gave us the Litany of Adralla.

And that's an interesting part of the lore. It's like magic, but not magic at the same time. It's very strange. Even templars need lyrium to use their anti-magic abilities.

When it comes to The Litany, everyone that knows how to read can use it. Where all this power ? Lytium infused ink ? 

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Number 2, "rotten to the core"? Really? Beyond his affiliation with Quentin, please explain to me how the Circle was rotten. One could easily make the same argument about how Meredith let some corrupt templars remain in power. And beyond that one letter to Quentin, how do we even know there was something for Meredith to even find in the Gallows? I will say though that at the end, it came down to a gigantic pissing match between him and Meredith. 

Let's really analyze what happened the night the Circle was Annulled.
Meredith wants to search the Circle due to the great number of blood mages and Abominations that it seems to be producing (2 in the first quest in Act and Grace's whole group), Orsino refuses.
First important question: why refuse if he is innocent? Either Meredith won't find anything; in which case, his position will be strenghtened; or she will find some blood mages and punish them like they deserve.
Unless, of course, Orsino is a blood mage himself.

Then, Anders kills Elthina thus removing the only person preventing Meredith from doing whatever she pleased. She declares the Right of Annulment which Orsino contest. Regardless of Hawke's decision, Orsino runs to the Circle to warn the mages. However, was that all he wanted to do? 
When Meredith arrives, Orsino proposes a truce; he will allow her to search the Circle if she revokes the Right.
Second important question: Why not propose this imediatelly after the destruction of the Chantry? Why run to the Circle first? 
What if the reason Orsino first ran to the Circle and only then proposed to allow Meredith's search because he had already concealed the evidence of his studies into blood magic.

During the fight in Kirkwall and the Circle proper, a great number of Circle mages summon and control demons; the demons are not hostile to them; as well as use other forms of blood magic.
Third important question: Did these mages truly learn how to summon and control demons in the timespan of a night with the threat of impending death affecting their concentration?
It seems more likely to me that they had been studying blood magic for some time before Ander's terrorist attack.

Finally, when Orsino himself is reached, he admits to having studied Quentin's notes but denies to have ever used blood magic before. 
Fourth important question: If Orsino had never used blood magic before, how was he capable of mixing several different bodies together to create a perfectly funcional living tank?

Given all this evidence, it seems obvious to me that either Orsino was a blood mage who ahd been training other Circle mages for years or that he was so incompetent that he couldn't tell a great number of the mages under his jurisdiction were blood mages. Either way, the Circle is, clearly, rotten.

A very good point. I just have a tinny little problem with the last sentence. Make it most of the Circle or a big part of the Circle and it's fine.

Let's not accuse every single mage of corruption. There could have been clean ones among the corrupted ones that were just fighting for their lives and didn't use forbidden magic then or prior to the Annulement.

[SgtSteel91]

eluvianix wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

But the complex ritual turned him into a monster that attacked Templars and Hawk's party, if they supported the mages. So he didn't really know how it worked.

And if Orsino really was teaching Blood Magic to other mages, why was Bethany, if she was in the Circle, not a Blood Mage?

If he was "teaching" blood magic, and that is a very big if, then she might no have been made aware of it, as she was a very recent addition to the Circle.

But the wiki says that she becomes a Senior member with her own apprentices. So how long does she need to be? I guess another reason why he never told her was because a Blood Mage killed her mother. 

[MisterJB]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

But the complex ritual turned him into a monster that attacked Templars and Hawk's party, if they supported the mages. So he didn't really know how it worked.

I don't think that is necessarely true. When Orsino becomes an Harvester, he is clearly suicidal if he is willing to add himself to the pile of flesh so, it could be that he knew exactly what it would do and considered Hawke irrelevant so long as the Templars were "punished".
And even if he hadn't perfected the ritual, he had to have, at least, experimented it with rats or something similar. I find it extremely hard to believe he pulled it off on his first try despite having never thought of using blood magic.
It's like if a Spirit Healer who had never used a Primal Spell before, being able to conjure a Storm of the Century on his/her first try.

And if Orsino really was teaching Blood Magic to other mages, why was Bethany, if she was in the Circle, not a Blood Mage?

Perhaps he did not approach her because he realized her personality would have made her unsuitable for what he planned.
Plus, she was, possibly, connected to a Pro-Templar Hawke.

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@TK514: Orsino's also a good case of why it's even unacceptable to allow the "study" of Blood Magic.

Study of blood magic is what gave us the Litany of Adralla.

And that's an interesting part of the lore. It's like magic, but not magic at the same time. It's very strange. Even templars need lyrium to use their anti-magic abilities.

When it comes to The Litany, everyone that knows how to read can use it. Where all this power ? Lytium infused ink ? 

I am thinking that some magic in Dragon Age is invoked through the spoken word, similar to rituals. Take Flemeth's restoration spell, via Merrill's "In Uthenera" poem. Power like this might not necessarily require a mage's power, and merely the spoken word is enough. Or perhaps Lambert used his own power, given through lyrium ingestion, to invoke its power.

[Hellion Rex]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

But the complex ritual turned him into a monster that attacked Templars and Hawk's party, if they supported the mages. So he didn't really know how it worked.

And if Orsino really was teaching Blood Magic to other mages, why was Bethany, if she was in the Circle, not a Blood Mage?

If he was "teaching" blood magic, and that is a very big if, then she might no have been made aware of it, as she was a very recent addition to the Circle.

But the wiki says that she becomes a Senior member with her own apprentices. So how long does she need to be? I guess another reason why he never told her was because a Blood Mage killed her mother. 

Well there is that. I must confess that my Bethany never joined the Circle, she always became a Grey Warden. So my knowledge on that front is a little shoddy.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Perhaps he did not approach her because he realized her personality would have made her unsuitable for what he planned.
Plus, she was, possibly, connected to a Pro-Templar Hawke.

Or, perhaps she might been horrified at using blood magic, since she would have been aware that it killed their mother.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Ok, where to start. First, I am not going to contest the Grace issue. As for my own perceptions of why Orsino ran, I honestly think he was scared to death. In all of his time of baiting Meredith,  I don't think he ever really believed that she would actually invoke the Annulment. And also, nobody probably ever believed that Elthina would be removed so quickly and violently. Also, if he chose not to run, and Meredith detained/killed him while still desiring to perform an Annulment (she was out for blood at this point), then who could have warned the mages of their impending doom? They would have no idea as to what was happening or why they were suddenly to be Annuled. I won't deny that Orsino could have attempted to hide his involvement in any maleficar activity.

But saying "Revoke the Right of Annulment, Meredith, before this goes too far. Imprison us if you must, search the Circle, I will even help you. But do not kill us all for an act we did not commit." in Lowtown or in the Gallows makes no difference. He could have run as soon as it became clear that Meredith wasn't going to pay attention.
So, why offer it specifically only after he has already been to the Circle if not because he is confident that now, she won't find anything incriminatory?
We know for a fact that he was studying blood magic. It seems logical to me that he ran to conceal evidence as well as warn the mages. Maybe only Quentin's research; maybe an entire cell of blood mages.

As for the many demons popping up out of nowhere, as you saw in the cutscene, a crap ton of magic was being invoked in a short span of time in a single location. The Veil was probably thin initally due to the Gallow's long bloody history, both before and during its tenure as a Circle. But once magic started being used en masse, then the Veil would have started tearing like wet tissue paper. Demons could then begin to cross physically and/or take advantage of many mages who were either distraught out of their minds or were looking for extra power to defend themselves. Granted, several obviously chose to turn to blood magic, as evidenced by the one on the docks and the a few within the Gallows itself. That being said, that is a few rotten apples as compared to an entirely rotten tree.

Ther are demons that appear on their own and those I believe crossed the Veil by themselves. But there are many combats during the Annulment where mages and demons fight together and aren't hostile to each other. And it's not a gameplay issue because there are other instances within the game where three different factions fight each other and they are all hostile to each other. For instance, Hawke VS Carta Dwarves VS Qunari.
If the demons aren't hostile to mages, it stands to reason that they were summoned by the mages. Did these mages learn how to do it on the spot?
Apparently, Kirkwall's Circle was full of geniuses.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 décembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

I am thinking that some magic in Dragon Age is invoked through the spoken word, similar to rituals. Take Flemeth's restoration spell, via Merrill's "In Uthenera" poem. Power like this might not necessarily require a mage's power, and merely the spoken word is enough. Or perhaps Lambert used his own power, given through lyrium ingestion, to invoke its power.

I don't think that Lambert used his powers to activate it. Remember that the warden and all his companions can use it and not all of them are mages or templars.Not even the race matters.

As for the first part - hmm...power words. That would make everyone who knows them and learn to pronounce them or the incantations able to cast an alien type of spells, no matter if he/she is a mage or not and no matter the race. It sends me a strong "FUS RO DAH" vibe.

It would be nice if they explored this part of the arcane arts more.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Ther are demons that appear on their own and those I believe crossed the Veil by themselves. But there are many combats during the Annulment where mages and demons fight together and aren't hostile to each other. And it's not a gameplay issue because there are other instances within the game where three different factions fight each other and they are all hostile to each other. For instance, Hawke VS Carta Dwarves VS Qunari.
If the demons aren't hostile to mages, it stands to reason that they were summoned by the mages. Did these mages learn how to do it on the spot?
Apparently, Kirkwall's Circle was full of geniuses.

Do remember that we also saw demons, particularly those of desire, that had enthralled both mages and templars. It is entirely possible that some of the groups, but not all, were being controlled.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Do remember that we also saw demons, particularly those of desire, that had enthralled both mages and templars. It is entirely possible that some of the groups, but not all, were being controlled.

Possibly but the mages appear before the demons which suggests they summoned them. Unless they were in control from the Fade...

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Do remember that we also saw demons, particularly those of desire, that had enthralled both mages and templars. It is entirely possible that some of the groups, but not all, were being controlled.

Possibly but the mages appear before the demons which suggests they summoned them. Unless they were in control from the Fade...

It could honestly go either way. We just don't know and we have no way to enitrely confirm either of our suspicions.

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I like how everyone just jumps the gun completely and base their statements that Meredith would ahve punished Orsino for turning in Quentin. You are basing that ludicrous claim on exactly what information? Something that ORSINO says? Yeah.... That doesn't hold any water.

Matter of fact is, that if Orsino had just been doing his job from the START of his career, then maybe, just maybe, the Tempalrs would have had a reason to trust the mages of Kirkwall. Instead, he chose to be an obstacle for the Templars from day one, and refused to cooperate. No wonder that Meredith and the Templars were getting tired of that little man's bull****.

Orsino had no career.  He, like any other young mage, was taken in as a child by the templars and was essentinally raised by the Circle as a prisoner of the Chantry. He became the First Enchanter not out of his own merit, but because nobody in the right mind would accept the postion knowing the extra baggege that came with the title; working beside the templars and the Chantry. Orsino took the postion as the First Enchanter only because he wanted to become an advocate for his fellow mages, to be their voice. He wanted to educate the public, and to reprogram peoples minds by preaching out that what the Chantry had told them is simply not true. Mages should not be feared for as long as they're not pushed into desperate acts.

I'm sorry if I may offend people here but Meredith is like a woman on the rag, but in her case it is 24/7 non-stop. Can you deal with someone like her, especially when you're forced to work with her until the day the Maker calls you home?

Templars would never trust mages. That is part of the job. They're there to watch over them, not to engage in a friendly type of relationship. Do you honestly believe that Irving and Greagoir are bros? They may tolerate each other far more than Meredith and Orsino, but they're not friends.

"And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness." -Irving

[MisterJB]

JulianWellpit wrote...
A very good point. I just have a tinny little problem with the last sentence. Make it most of the Circle or a big part of the Circle and it's fine.

Let's not accuse every single mage of corruption. There could have been clean ones among the corrupted ones that were just fighting for their lives and didn't use forbidden magic then or prior to the Annulement.

Thank you. And there were certainly some good mages within the Circle; those three that surrender come to mind; but one wonders if corrupted mages hasn't become the norm at that point.
Certainly, if Orsino was telling the truth, there were more mages who went along with his plan and sacrificed themselves than those who surrendered.