1858 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Suffice it to say, some templar supporters call the Circle beyond saving because Orsino helped Quentin (and to what extent he helped him is never made clear,) and some mage supporters say the whole templar order is corrupt because of the bad apples in the templars and their ability to get away with their abuses under Meredith.

I don't think Orsino or Meredith were good leaders. They were both very poor ones, and they were not suited to compromise in any way.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Suffice it to say, some templar supporters call the Circle beyond saving because Orsino helped Quentin (and to what extent he helped him is never made clear,) and some mage supporters say the whole templar order is corrupt because of the bad apples in the templars and their ability to get away with their abuses under Meredith.

I don't think Orsino or Meredith were good leaders. They were both very poor ones, and they were not suited to compromise in any way.

Indeed. Neither did anything to help the situation at all. Their showdown was inevitable. Twas only a matter of time. And as a result, we are left to pick up the pieces...

[Lord Raijin]

Meredith was using her dead abomination sister to justify her abusive methods against the mages of the Circle. She would even execute them for minor offenses... like escaping the circle and going to the hanged man to bang a hooker for the first time. It is the reason why the city became infested with blood mages. The fact that mages are no longer going to putup with their oppressors crap, and that Anders decided to take the first step in the freedom of mages by blowing up the Chantry.

Isn't that what you do during war? To go after the enemies generals?

[Vulpe]

MisterJB wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...
A very good point. I just have a tinny little problem with the last sentence. Make it most of the Circle or a big part of the Circle and it's fine.

Let's not accuse every single mage of corruption. There could have been clean ones among the corrupted ones that were just fighting for their lives and didn't use forbidden magic then or prior to the Annulement.

Thank you. And there were certainly some good mages within the Circle; those three that surrender come to mind; but one wonders if corrupted mages hasn't become the norm at that point.
Certainly, if Orsino was telling the truth, there were more mages who went along with his plan and sacrificed themselves than those who surrendered.

Kirkwall situation was a special one. The Veil was thinner than in other places and many of the templars there weren't the best example of how a templar should behave.

I doubt that mage corruptness is at a level where it's the new norm in the whole of Thedas, if that is what you were referring by your statement.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Meredith was using her dead abomination sister to justify her abusive methods against the mages of the Circle. She would even execute them for minor offenses... like escaping the circle and going to the hanged man to bang a hooker for the first time. It is the reason why the city became infested with blood mages. The fact that mages are no longer going to putup with their oppressors crap, and that Anders decided to take the first step in the freedom of mages by blowing up the Chantry.

Isn't that what you do during war? To go after the enemies generals?

Ok, to be fair, watching your sister kill 70 plus people is certainly a very sobering reality, and it would screw up just about anybody. Also, she did nothing to Emile de Launcet, if he was returned to the Circle either.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:09 .

[MisterJB]

JulianWellpit wrote...
Kirkwall situation was a special one. The Veil was thinner than in other places and many of the templars there weren't the best example of how a templar should behave.

I doubt that mage corruptness is at a level where it's the new norm in the whole of Thedas, if that is what you were referring by your statement.

I meant only within the context of the Kirkwall Circle. I conside the possibility that, when the Annulment came along, mages like Bethany and those three were already in the minority.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Ok, to be fair, watching your sister kill 70 plus people is certainly a very sobering reality, and it would screw up just about anybody. Also, she did nothing to Emile de Launcet, if he was returned to the Circle either.

The only thing that screwed up Meredith was the Red Lyrium.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Ok, to be fair, watching your sister kill 70 plus people is certainly a very sobering reality, and it would screw up just about anybody. Also, she did nothing to Emile de Launcet, if he was returned to the Circle either.

The only thing that screwed up Meredith was the Red Lyrium.

I am just saying that if someone were to watch their sister succumb to a demon and murder nearly a hundred people, then you too would become pretty damned dedicated to your job too. And the Red Lyrium enhanced that aspect of her personality as well as her paranoia.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
I am just saying that if someone were to watch their sister succumb to a demon and murder nearly a hundred people, then you too would become pretty damned dedicated to your job too.

That's fairer.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Meredith was using her dead abomination sister to justify her abusive methods against the mages of the Circle. She would even execute them for minor offenses... like escaping the circle and going to the hanged man to bang a hooker for the first time. It is the reason why the city became infested with blood mages. The fact that mages are no longer going to putup with their oppressors crap, and that Anders decided to take the first step in the freedom of mages by blowing up the Chantry.

Isn't that what you do during war? To go after the enemies generals?

Ok, to be fair, watching your sister kill 70 plus people is certainly a very sobering reality, and it would screw up just about anybody. Also, she did nothing to Emile de Launcet, if he was returned to the Circle either.

Doesn't mean that it's right to take out your frustration on innocent people just because you watch your sister kill 70 people. Meredith said that she would've had Emile de Launcet executed if it wasn't for his parented that pleded with her. It was his parents that convinced her not to execute him.

[The Elder King]

Meh, I Still believe that both mages and templars were at their worst in DA2, including their leader, and regardless of red lyrium.

[Dave of Canada]

Lord Raijin wrote...

She would even execute them for minor offenses...

What? She doesn't execute Emile, she allows him to return to the Circle. Hell, she allows blood mages to return to the Circle despite the Circle's zero tolerance rule. Meredith isn't the best Knight-Commander but she didn't execute for minor grievances, she was far more forgiving than most people paint her out to be.

[Hellion Rex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

She would even execute them for minor offenses...

What? She doesn't execute Emile, she allows him to return to the Circle. Hell, she allows blood mages to return to the Circle despite the Circle's zero tolerance rule. Meredith isn't the best Knight-Commander but she didn't execute for minor grievances, she was far more forgiving than most people paint her out to be.

Ummm which blood mages did she let return exactly? Are you referring to Grace?
And we already corrected Raijin.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:31 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Meh, I Still believe that both mages and templars were at their worst in DA2, including their leader, and regardless of red lyrium.

I thought this was a given.

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

She would even execute them for minor offenses...

What? She doesn't execute Emile, she allows him to return to the Circle. Hell, she allows blood mages to return to the Circle despite the Circle's zero tolerance rule. Meredith isn't the best Knight-Commander but she didn't execute for minor grievances, she was far more forgiving than most people paint her out to be.

She indeed shown forgiveness, though I'd say she's still an extremist. But she had other problems. She wasn't able to control her templars, which were able to abuse their powers. She's inefficient in this regard.

[Lord Raijin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

She would even execute them for minor offenses...

What? She doesn't execute Emile, she allows him to return to the Circle. Hell, she allows blood mages to return to the Circle despite the Circle's zero tolerance rule. Meredith isn't the best Knight-Commander but she didn't execute for minor grievances, she was far more forgiving than most people paint her out to be.

Uh? What is in order. Meredith would NEVER allow blood mages to return to the circle. Where do you get this idea from anyways? Meredith even confronts Orsino of hoboring blood mages, and that he was protecting them against her.

She said it herself that she would've executed Emile. I did not said that he was executed, but had plans to execute him if it wasn't for the cries from his parents.

Meredith isn't as nice as you picture her out to be. Shes not as forgiving either.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

She would even execute them for minor offenses...

What? She doesn't execute Emile, she allows him to return to the Circle. Hell, she allows blood mages to return to the Circle despite the Circle's zero tolerance rule. Meredith isn't the best Knight-Commander but she didn't execute for minor grievances, she was far more forgiving than most people paint her out to be.

She indeed shown forgiveness, though I'd say she's still an extremist. But she had other problems. She wasn't able to control her templars, which were able to abuse their powers. She's inefficient in this regard.

Which blood mages, though?

[The Elder King]

@eluvianix: I think Dave is referring to the mages of Grace's group (though I don't recall if it was specified if some were BM in Act 1), and the female mage in the brothel, won can return to the Circle.

[Dave of Canada]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Uh? What is in order. Meredith would NEVER allow blood mages to return to the circle. Where do you get this idea from anyways?

Idunna and Grace/Alain and their cohorts. Twice in the case of Alain, infact. She also allows Emile to go back despite his claims of being a blood mage, considering she's "insane" at the moment and isn't listening to anyone and ruling the entire city, this speaks volume.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:38 .

[Hellion Rex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Uh? What is in order. Meredith would NEVER allow blood mages to return to the circle. Where do you get this idea from anyways?

Idunna and Grace/Alain and their cohorts. Twice, infact. She also allows Emile to go back despite his claims of being a blood mage, considering she's "insane" at the moment and isn't listening to anyone and ruling the entire city, this speaks volume.

Of course she let Emile back. He didn't actually do anything. And beyond Decimus, at the time, did they even have any legitimate proof that their entire group were blood mages? And she only had to bring the group to the Circle once, as the next time, Grace and the others are killed. Alain was spared both times because he surrendered to the Templars.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Uh? What is in order. Meredith would NEVER allow blood mages to return to the circle. Where do you get this idea from anyways?

Idunna and Grace/Alain and their cohorts. Twice, infact. She also allows Emile to go back despite his claims of being a blood mage, considering she's "insane" at the moment and isn't listening to anyone and ruling the entire city, this speaks volume.

Of course she let Emile back. He didn't actually do anything. And beyond Decimus, at the time, did they even have any legitimate proof that their entire group were blood mages? And she only had to bring the group to the Circle once, as the next time, Grace and the others are killed. Alain was spared both times because he surrendered to the Templars.

Add in that in Act 2 we learn from a random conversation we overhear from Grace that Meredith chose three of that group at random and made them tranquil as an example to other mages.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Uh? What is in order. Meredith would NEVER allow blood mages to return to the circle. Where do you get this idea from anyways?

Idunna and Grace/Alain and their cohorts. Twice, infact. She also allows Emile to go back despite his claims of being a blood mage, considering she's "insane" at the moment and isn't listening to anyone and ruling the entire city, this speaks volume.

Of course she let Emile back. He didn't actually do anything. And beyond Decimus, at the time, did they even have any legitimate proof that their entire group were blood mages? And she only had to bring the group to the Circle once, as the next time, Grace and the others are killed. Alain was spared both times because he surrendered to the Templars.

Add in that in Act 2 we learn from a random conversation we overhear from Grace that Meredith chose three of that group at random and made them tranquil as an example to other mages.

Actually they were executed, not made Tranquil.

[MisterJB]

And Alain was a confirmed blood mage in act; and he appears in the Circle during the Annulment if Hawke sides with the mages.
So, yes, Meredith allowed a confirmed blood mage to return to the Circle when she was at her most "demented". Hadly befitting of the "merciless tyrant" image.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:46 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

And Alain was a confirmed blood mage in act; and he appears in the Circle during the Annulment if Hawke sides with the mages.
So, yes, Meredith allowed a confirmed blood mage to return to the Circle when she was at her most "demented". Hadly befitting of the "merciless tyrant" image.

The only act of blood magic by Alain was to unbind the Champion's friend/lover/sibling in the Act III quest. He surrendered to the Templars in Act of Mercy because he was scared of the blood magic that Decimus was performing.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 08:47 .

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Uh? What is in order. Meredith would NEVER allow blood mages to return to the circle. Where do you get this idea from anyways?

Idunna and Grace/Alain and their cohorts. Twice, infact. She also allows Emile to go back despite his claims of being a blood mage, considering she's "insane" at the moment and isn't listening to anyone and ruling the entire city, this speaks volume.

Of course she let Emile back. He didn't actually do anything. And beyond Decimus, at the time, did they even have any legitimate proof that their entire group were blood mages? And she only had to bring the group to the Circle once, as the next time, Grace and the others are killed. Alain was spared both times because he surrendered to the Templars.

Add in that in Act 2 we learn from a random conversation we overhear from Grace that Meredith chose three of that group at random and made them tranquil as an example to other mages.

Actually they were executed, not made Tranquil.

Not executed but were made tranquil