1858 réponses à ce sujet

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


If hes an ass what word should we use for Meredith? 

I can think of two, but the forum censors both them. But while she apparently has her moments of reasonableness nobody's bothering to deny she's ultimately a toxic person. (I think nobody's denying that. Is anyone denying that?)

I'm not denying it, Br3ad's not denying it, and I don't think eluvianix  is denying it, so really I have no clue what raijin is going on about with this.

[Senya]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


If hes an ass what word should we use for Meredith? 

I can think of two, but the forum censors both them. But while she apparently has her moments of reasonableness nobody's bothering to deny she's ultimately a toxic person. (I think nobody's denying that. Is anyone denying that?)

Not that I'm aware of. No.

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


If hes an ass what word should we use for Meredith? 

I can think of two, but the forum censors both them. But while she apparently has her moments of reasonableness nobody's bothering to deny she's ultimately a toxic person. (I think nobody's denying that. Is anyone denying that?)

I'm not denying it, Br3ad's not denying it, and I don't think eluvianix  is denying it, so really I have no clue what raijin is going on about with this.

I am not denying it.

[Lord Raijin]

Br3ad wrote...
What does Meredith being anything have to do with Orsino being anything? Yes, Meredith is bad. We've established that two years ago. We're talking about Orsino here. 

I'm defending Orsinos actions (Not all mind you) base on what Meredith was essentionally doing to the city, and for the abusive treatment against the mages.

If Orsino is an ass it is only because Meredith turned him into one.

[Senya]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What does Meredith being anything have to do with Orsino being anything? Yes, Meredith is bad. We've established that two years ago. We're talking about Orsino here. 

I'm defending Orsinos actions (Not all mind you) base on what Meredith was essentionally doing to the city, and for the abusive treatment against the mages.

If Orsino is an ass it is only because Meredith turned him into one.

Whenever my brother would pester and heckle me and I responded with my fists (as he was aiming for), my dad would punish me. I would say, "He made me do it" or something to that effect. His response was something that fits this situation as well.

"No one can make you do anything."

[wickedgoodreed]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
Not saying he taught them. All I'm saying is he knew his mages were using blood magic, knew which ones were doing it, and just turned the other way and didn't aknowledge anything of what he saw. Let the situation play out rather then trying to stop it. Like a coach who knows his team is juicing with steroids, but doesn't say aything because why let a good thing like that stop? He knew what was going down, even if he didn't have a direct hand in it, and just walked away.

Either that, or he was a bumbling fool who had absolutely no idea anything wrong was going on right under his nose, and thus a horrible first enchanter.

Except that Orisino actually does try to do something about it. When he becomes concerned that his mages might be sneaking out to practice blood magic, he asks Hawke for help. By Act 3, Meredith has already sent a request to the Divine to enact the Rite of Annulment. Going to her with his concerns would be giving her the fire power she needed to murder the entire Circle. And as it turns out, they weren't all sneaking out to slit their wrists and dance naked in the moonlight but rather teaming up with moderate Templars like Thrask and Keran to try and find some sort of compromise.

I don't agree with everything Orisino did, but he's sort of damned either way by that point.

[Beerfish]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What does Meredith being anything have to do with Orsino being anything? Yes, Meredith is bad. We've established that two years ago. We're talking about Orsino here. 

I'm defending Orsinos actions (Not all mind you) base on what Meredith was essentionally doing to the city, and for the abusive treatment against the mages.

If Orsino is an ass it is only because Meredith turned him into one.

Sheer and utter nonsense.

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What does Meredith being anything have to do with Orsino being anything? Yes, Meredith is bad. We've established that two years ago. We're talking about Orsino here. 

I'm defending Orsinos actions (Not all mind you) base on what Meredith was essentionally doing to the city, and for the abusive treatment against the mages.

If Orsino is an ass it is only because Meredith turned him into one.

So basically, "It's okay, becasue oppression." Still. 

[Hellion Rex]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What does Meredith being anything have to do with Orsino being anything? Yes, Meredith is bad. We've established that two years ago. We're talking about Orsino here. 

I'm defending Orsinos actions (Not all mind you) base on what Meredith was essentionally doing to the city, and for the abusive treatment against the mages.

If Orsino is an ass it is only because Meredith turned him into one.

Whenever my brother would pester and heckle me and I responded with my fists (as he was aiming for), my dad would punish me. I would say, "He made me do it" or something to that effect. His response was something that fits this situation as well.

"No one can make you do anything."

Fair point. There is always a choice, no matter how hard you are pushed to do something. It is still a conscious choice.

[Senya]

eluvianix wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What does Meredith being anything have to do with Orsino being anything? Yes, Meredith is bad. We've established that two years ago. We're talking about Orsino here. 

I'm defending Orsinos actions (Not all mind you) base on what Meredith was essentionally doing to the city, and for the abusive treatment against the mages.

If Orsino is an ass it is only because Meredith turned him into one.

Whenever my brother would pester and heckle me and I responded with my fists (as he was aiming for), my dad would punish me. I would say, "He made me do it" or something to that effect. His response was something that fits this situation as well.

"No one can make you do anything."

Fair point. There is always a choice, no matter how hard you are pushed to do something. It is still a conscious choice.

Indeed. My dad spent a lot of effort drilling that into my head.

wickedgoodreed wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
Not
saying he taught them. All I'm saying is he knew his mages were using
blood magic, knew which ones were doing it, and just turned the other
way and didn't aknowledge anything of what he saw. Let the situation
play out rather then trying to stop it. Like a coach who knows his team
is juicing with steroids, but doesn't say aything because why let a good
thing like that stop? He knew what was going down, even if he didn't
have a direct hand in it, and just walked away.

Either that, or
he was a bumbling fool who had absolutely no idea anything wrong was
going on right under his nose, and thus a horrible first enchanter.

Except
that Orisino actually does try to do something about it. When he
becomes concerned that his mages might be sneaking out to practice blood
magic, he asks Hawke for help. By Act 3, Meredith has already sent a
request to the Divine to enact the Rite of Annulment. Going to her with
his concerns would be giving her the fire power she needed to murder the
entire Circle. And as it turns out, they weren't all sneaking out to
slit their wrists and dance naked in the moonlight but rather teaming up
with moderate Templars like Thrask and Keran to try and find some sort
of compromise.

I don't agree with everything Orisino did, but he's sort of damned either way by that point.

Fair point. He does ask Hawke in that instance.

[Hellion Rex]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Indeed. My dad spent a lot of effort drilling that into my head.

You have a very wise dad. Sounds just like my mom.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 décembre 2013 - 10:46 .

[Senya]

eluvianix wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Indeed. My dad spent a lot of effort drilling that into my head.

You have a very wise dad. Sounds just like my mom.

He's 88 now. Personally, he thinks everyone feels entitled to everything nowadays. He's probably right.

[Lord Raijin]

almostinsane99 wrote...
Whenever my brother would pester and heckle me and I responded with my fists (as he was aiming for), my dad would punish me. I would say, "He made me do it" or something to that effect. His response was something that fits this situation as well.

"No one can make you do anything."

Your example is irrelevant. If your brother is pestering you.... you have the freedom to walk away and perhabs go to a friends out to cool off. Orsino cannot do that to Meredith. He is forced to stay at the circle. It is his home and very much like his prison cell. He is unable to travel without permission to cool off, and even if he did Meredith would think hes out doing his dark ritual.

Their is no such thing as privacy in the circle.

[ollec92]

The templars constant display of mistreatment of mages and the psychological distress they put the mages through is the very thing that breeds hate and contentment towards templars. A real-world example of this effect can be studied in the Stanford prison experiment (Philip Zimbardo, 1971). (A very interesting read for any one that is interested in the interaction between two groups of people)

The mages are then willing to try almost anything to achieve personal freedom from this environment; they do this by turning to bloodmagic or allowing themselves to become possessed. Which confirms the templars suspicion that mages are dangerous, which in turn justifies the temlars actions. The templars treatment of the mages is what creates the very thing that the templars are trying to fight.

[Lord Raijin]

An addition...

In the real world the "no one can make you do anything" might work, unless if you live in one of those countries where your freedom isn't as free.. but in the world of Thedas that quote become useless since people can force you to do things that you don't want to do, and it's not mage related either. Look how Duncan savagely murdered that one frighten man for tapping out, and changed his mind about becoming a grey warden. Look how people went from living their normal daily lives to being captured and sold as slavery. Alistair was essentially force to become the next new King of Ferelden because by blood he was the next kin to be put on the throne.

[Senya]

Lord Raijin wrote...

An addition...

In the real world the "no one can make you do anything" might work, unless if you live in one of those countries where your freedom isn't as free.. but in the world of Thedas that quote become useless since people can force you to do things that you don't want to do, and it's not mage related either. Look how Duncan savagely murdered that one frighten man for tapping out, and changed his mind about becoming a grey warden. Look how people went from living their normal daily lives to being captured and sold as slavery. Alistair was essentially force to become the next new King of Ferelden because by blood he was the next kin to be put on the throne.

So the Mages' situation isn't that unique among Thedasians, then.

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...
Whenever my brother would pester and heckle me and I responded with my fists (as he was aiming for), my dad would punish me. I would say, "He made me do it" or something to that effect. His response was something that fits this situation as well.

"No one can make you do anything."

Your example is irrelevant. If your brother is pestering you.... you have the freedom to walk away and perhabs go to a friends out to cool off. Orsino cannot do that to Meredith. He is forced to stay at the circle. It is his home and very much like his prison cell. He is unable to travel without permission to cool off, and even if he did Meredith would think hes out doing his dark ritual.

Their is no such thing as privacy in the circle.

What type of house did you grow up in? 

[Hellion Rex]

ollec92 wrote...

The templars constant display of mistreatment of mages and the psychological distress they put the mages through is the very thing that breeds hate and contentment towards templars. A real-world example of this effect can be studied in the Stanford prison experiment (Philip Zimbardo, 1971). (A very interesting read for any one that is interested in the interaction between two groups of people)

The mages are then willing to try almost anything to achieve personal freedom from this environment; they do this by turning to bloodmagic or allowing themselves to become possessed. Which confirms the templars suspicion that mages are dangerous, which in turn justifies the temlars actions. The templars treatment of the mages is what creates the very thing that the templars are trying to fight.

I too am very familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment. And let me tell you, I hated watching those jailors take advantage of the prisoners.

In part, you are correct. It is indeed part of a vicious cycle between some templars and some mages. That still doesn't excuse choosing to let a demon into your soul, or using blood magic for nefarious purposes.

 Also, none of those prisoners had magic that has the capacity summon either. Neither were they in any fatal danger.

However, we still have maleficar that require no prodding from the Templars to pursue such dangerous avenues of magic. In that sense, Templars are still a very vital part of magic and its future.

[Lord Raijin]

ollec92 wrote...

The templars constant display of mistreatment of mages and the psychological distress they put the mages through is the very thing that breeds hate and contentment towards templars. A real-world example of this effect can be studied in the Stanford prison experiment (Philip Zimbardo, 1971). (A very interesting read for any one that is interested in the interaction between two groups of people)

The mages are then willing to try almost anything to achieve personal freedom from this environment; they do this by turning to bloodmagic or allowing themselves to become possessed. Which confirms the templars suspicion that mages are dangerous, which in turn justifies the temlars actions. The templars treatment of the mages is what creates the very thing that the templars are trying to fight.

Take a look at this... When you treat people right... it will reward you for the future to come.

[Lord Raijin]

Br3ad wrote...
What type of house did you grow up in? 

Regular family sized home.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Raijin. Do you realize that most of thedas lives in a state of feudalism, and not a modern liberal(in the non-united states way) society where individual rights and freedoms were valued over the good of the state? Where pretty much the guy with the bigger army and better arms was the one in charge of that country, because he could go in and depose the ruling elite and declare himself king, and that person would be king from that point on.

I think there's too many people not trying to get into the mindset of what it was like in thedas, with it's current level of technology and cultural progress, even though I don't like that word it fits here, and instead are trying to approach this as if thedas is a modern society with modern technology and our own societal and cultural movements.

[SgtSteel91]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Raijin. Do you realize that most of thedas lives in a state of feudalism, and not a modern liberal(in the non-united states way) society where individual rights and freedoms were valued over the good of the state? Where pretty much the guy with the bigger army and better arms was the one in charge of that country, because he could go in and depose the ruling elite and declare himself king, and that person would be king from that point on.

I think there's too many people not trying to get into the mindset of what it was like in thedas, with it's current level of technology and cultural progress, even though I don't like that word it fits here, and instead are trying to approach this as if thedas is a modern society with modern technology and our own societal and cultural movements.

But why can't social progress happen now?

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What type of house did you grow up in? 

Regular family sized home.

Read what you said again. Those things aren't possible in a house either. 

[MisterJB]

ollec92 wrote...
The templars treatment of the mages is what creates the very thing that the templars are trying to fight.

Not entirely, there is a great number of mages who needed no templar incentive in order to abuse their powers; for instance, Connor whose trigger was his father's sickness or Tahrone who simply believed that mages are superior and must rule.
That doesn't mean the Templars don't share a parcel of the blame but it is naive to believe that in a world without Templars, mages would leave peacefully with normal people. In a world without Templars, Tevinter was born.
The Circle is a good solution. It just requires a greater deal of accountability amongst the Templars.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Raijin. Do you realize that most of thedas lives in a state of feudalism, and not a modern liberal(in the non-united states way) society where individual rights and freedoms were valued over the good of the state? Where pretty much the guy with the bigger army and better arms was the one in charge of that country, because he could go in and depose the ruling elite and declare himself king, and that person would be king from that point on.

I think there's too many people not trying to get into the mindset of what it was like in thedas, with it's current level of technology and cultural progress, even though I don't like that word it fits here, and instead are trying to approach this as if thedas is a modern society with modern technology and our own societal and cultural movements.

But why can't social progress happen now?

Because you're calling for equality for mages, but the eqaulity you're demanding for them is more then what even an average person of thedas is allowed. I feel it bears understanding what it's like to be in thedas to understand how radical the notion of equality for equalities sake really is in thedas.

But as for why the whole of thedas can't socially progress now? Outside of the sheer madness and unbelivability of a society propelling hundreds of years to the point they have the interconnectedness and rise of diplomatic discipline/social movement pressure in a matter of a few years, nothing really. It would make for a dull story for a society to just become modern, and skip over all the trials and tribulations it took getting there.

Though that depends on if the writers are compitent enough to utilize the story potentia of progress of if they'll just go for the easiest and cheapest way of doing it by saying "It's writing, I don't have to explain ****!"