1858 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Not necessarily something like saving money exist but hey even if so there are peoples who started that way and ended there where they wanted.

I know. And how common are they?

And how many decided to do that instead spending money?Besides you are master twisting of words i don't even know what we are talking about.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 09 décembre 2013 - 01:24 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Not necessarily something like saving money exist but hey even if so there are peoples who started that way and ended there where they wanted.

I know. And how common are they?

And how many decided to do that instead spending money?Besides you are master twisting of words i don't even know what we are talking about.

If I remember correctly, you were pointing out that someone without money in Thedas can work for it rather than staying where they are. My point was that while this is possible (though social climbing is almost impossible among the dwarves and limited to mages in Tevinter) you seemed to be overestimating how easy it was. Loghain, Hawke, The Warden (especially the CE or DC) Bella and Kaitlyn manage to move up in the world, but the first three had to move heaven and earth to get where they ended up and the latter two got a loan they were not expected to pay back (much less with ruinous interest) from one of the heaven-movers.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 décembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[CynicalShep]

Haha, what planet do you live on, Raijin. I can, of the top of my head, tell you at least a dozen instances where someone was treated "right" and took advantage of his benefactor that I have personally seen in the past month or two. This world isn't Utopia or Lala Land, Thedas even less so.

[ParkBom]

I like Wynne

And this thread is hella cray, lol. Ya'll some crazy hoes, tbh.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Not necessarily something like saving money exist but hey even if so there are peoples who started that way and ended there where they wanted.

I know. And how common are they?

And how many decided to do that instead spending money?Besides you are master twisting of words i don't even know what we are talking about.

If I remember correctly, you were pointing out that someone without money in Thedas can work for it rather than staying where they are. My point was that while this is possible (though social climbing is almost impossible among the dwarves and limited to mages in Tevinter) you seemed to be overestimating how easy it was. Loghain, Hawke, The Warden (especially the CE or DC) Bella and Kaitlyn manage to move up in the world, but the first three had to move heaven and earth to get where they ended up and the latter two got a loan they were not expected to pay back from one of the heaven-movers. (Much less with ruinous interest.)

pretty much that i claim that was easy was from you and br3ad i even stated that isn't easy and life isn't easy and that was my point that you can not whether you succeed or not because that is up to you and choices you made in road to it...  

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Wynne's nice.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


pretty much that i claim that was easy was from you and br3ad i even stated that isn't easy and life isn't easy and that was my point that you can not whether you succeed or not because that is up to you and choices you made in road to it...  

What I'm saying, though, is that the choices you make aren't the whole story. If you don't try, you won't succeed, but the opposite isn't necessarily true.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


pretty much that i claim that was easy was from you and br3ad i even stated that isn't easy and life isn't easy and that was my point that you can not whether you succeed or not because that is up to you and choices you made in road to it...  

What I'm saying, though, is that the choices you make aren't the whole story. If you don't try, you won't succeed, but the opposite isn't necessarily true.

Well as i said if you want stand on your own you have to risk that same if you go away from skirt your mother or you just want stay with them forever dependent on them?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


pretty much that i claim that was easy was from you and br3ad i even stated that isn't easy and life isn't easy and that was my point that you can not whether you succeed or not because that is up to you and choices you made in road to it...  

What I'm saying, though, is that the choices you make aren't the whole story. If you don't try, you won't succeed, but the opposite isn't necessarily true.

Well as i said if you want stand on your own you have to risk that same if you go away from skirt your mother or you just want stay with them forever dependent on them?

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that while it's a good idea to work hard and that it can make you rich, merely working hard isn't the whole answer to becoming rich; it also takes luck, a skill that's valued enough to make you rich, and ideally a system that isn't stacked against you.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 décembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[Medhia Nox]

And for the less idealistic - being rich also takes a willingness to check your morality at the door.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


pretty much that i claim that was easy was from you and br3ad i even stated that isn't easy and life isn't easy and that was my point that you can not whether you succeed or not because that is up to you and choices you made in road to it...  

What I'm saying, though, is that the choices you make aren't the whole story. If you don't try, you won't succeed, but the opposite isn't necessarily true.

Well as i said if you want stand on your own you have to risk that same if you go away from skirt your mother or you just want stay with them forever dependent on them?

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that while it's a good idea to work hard and that it can make you rich, merely working hard isn't the whole answer to becoming rich; it also takes luck, a skill that's valued enough to make you rich, and ideally a system that isn't stacked against you.

And what im saying what talking about risk and aren't we talk about peoples who don't have system be against them it only makes thing harder but as i said if you take right (not about morality) choices you can reach that only problem is in if you take this right choices.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And what im saying what talking about risk and aren't we talk about peoples who don't have system be against them it only makes thing harder but as i said if you take right (not about morality) choices you can reach that only problem is in if you take this right choices.

I'm not so much talking about risk as factors such as the lack of startup money, the lack of skills to make said startup money, and other things you might need to spend said startup money on.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And what im saying what talking about risk and aren't we talk about peoples who don't have system be against them it only makes thing harder but as i said if you take right (not about morality) choices you can reach that only problem is in if you take this right choices.

I'm not so much talking about risk as factors such as the lack of startup money, the lack of skills to make said startup money, and other things you might need to spend said startup money on.

And as i said on both you have impact you can teach skill and you can get money how even damn steal from someone take your pick your decision even genius habe to teach his skills they aren't instant expert... 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 09 décembre 2013 - 02:08 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And what im saying what talking about risk and aren't we talk about peoples who don't have system be against them it only makes thing harder but as i said if you take right (not about morality) choices you can reach that only problem is in if you take this right choices.

I'm not so much talking about risk as factors such as the lack of startup money, the lack of skills to make said startup money, and other things you might need to spend said startup money on.

And as i said on both you have impact you can teach skill and you can get money how even damn steal from someone take your pick your decision even genius habe to teach his skills they aren't instant expert... 

Learning this skill requires a teacher, and money. Getting the money requires a skill (unless you think it's easy to steal as much money as this requires), and you might have to spend money on something else in the meantime. Like food or taxes. It's easier than you think to find yourself in a hole you can't get out of. (Much of Thedas finds themselves born into it.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 décembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[TEWR]

JulianWellpit wrote...

He was indeed more strict and harsh back then,but he never breaked the rules.

I'd say backhanding a pregnant woman with a gauntlet just for speaking is breaking the rules of how the Circle exists to defend mages from people.

Not that I hate Gregoir, mind you. I actually think he's the best model we have, to date, of what a Templar should be.

But I do hate the comics he appeared in, even if I must accept it as canon.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I feel like Meredith had plenty of political power in Act 1 as well, since she's the one who gave the City-Guard the orders to sort out the refugees and keep them from entering the city, and the guard tells Hawke that she's the power in Kirkwall.

She did. As she had the military power at her disposal (the Templars were the larger army), she controlled the politics of Kirkwall by default after the Threnhold Uprising.

I speculate that if Orsino told Meredith about Quentin from Act 1, she may have been more receptive, but it's equally likely that it wouldn't make any difference.

Given that Meredith ordered Karras to wipe out Decimus' retinue and even if Grace and company surrender peacefully has three of them executed "to send a message" (a ****** one, as it just bred more rebellion), I doubt she would've reacted decently.

And while in hindsight wiping out Decimus' group would've probably been better because he turned into a blood mage, he didn't start using blood magic until he went into the cave. As far as anyone else knew, they were simply apostates.

So Meredith was ordering the deaths of apostates.

Poor Orsino?  You mean the man who
unwittingly assisted a serial killer and then refused to inform anyone
when he learned the truth?  The man who obstructed authourities from
investigating criminal mages he knew were there?  The man who knew there
was a potential conspiracy within the Circle against the Knight
Commander and said nothing?  Yes, poor Orsino.  Look Meredith might have
been the absolute worst Knight Commander in existence, but you can't
give her grief for being gruff with Orsino when we're given no
indication he made any attempt to be cooperative.

HOLD THE FRICKIN' PHONE HERE.



Orsino didn't know about the possible rebellion. He had suspicions. He had absolutely no proof other then that mages were disappearing at night, sometimes for days. Which while that's suspicious, is not enough to claim a rebellion is afoot.

Meredith is the one who had more information to go off of. She was certain a rebellion was afoot but didn't even WANT to work with Orsino.

Orsino was quite literally trapped between a rock and a hard place. If he investigates himself, Meredith would indeed have assumed he was part of it. If he went to her, she wouldn't have said jack **** on the subject because she was convinced he was part of it.

Meredith even says, if you tell her he had nothing to do with it, that Orsino's sunk his blood mage claws into the Champion to make you say that. She can't even admit she's wrong, whereas Orsino does if you tell him Meredith had nothing to do with it.

And what criminal mages, aside from Quentin (and Meredith/Aveline have most of that blame for failing to lock down a foundry where Demons showed up after a man was seen fleeing the scene, indicating control of said demons), did he fail to work with the authorities on?

Because last I checked, working with Hawke the Champion and Aveline the Guard-Captain is working with two authorities.

I find it hard to label Orsino as a "poor leader" because he 1) works tirelessly to help Feynriel, 2) has the best interests of his charges at heart, 3) is a powerful mage in his own right (at healing and combat), 4) does not seek the dissolution of Chantry, Templars, or Circle, and 5) personally mentors Bethany. Grand Cleric Elthina cites him as reasonable even, and he tries his best to work with Dumar (albeit making a clamor about it, as he has to contend with Meredith who's at Dumar's throat).

I find it hard to call a man who tells the people of Kirkwall that they shouldn't let Meredith continue to control their politics and opens their eyes to the bull**** a poor leader.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Given that Meredith ordered Karras to wipe out Decimus' retinue and even if Grace and company surrender peacefully has three of them executed "to send a message" (a ****** one, as it just bred more rebellion), I doubt she would've reacted decently. 

Fiction has that message because all of its plots are about heroic ubermensch, but this is a really succesful message historically. Despots get a lot of milleage out of violently supressing rebellions and publically executing their ringleaders and members. 

[TEWR]

Fiction has that message because all of its plots are about heroic ubermensch, but this is a really succesful message historically. Despots get a lot of milleage out of violently supressing rebellions and publically executing their ringleaders and members.

I get that (Vercingetorix comes to mind), but I'm not talking historically. Whether it's good or bad in real life is irrelevant to how the game treated it (and it's not always going to be the case)

And she didn't execute the ringleader. She just executed three of the mages at random, despite Grace being the one that led her people to surrender.

So... she's not exactly living up to the historical model. She left the ringleader alive.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 03:34 .

[TEWR]

Let's really analyze what happened the night the Circle was Annulled.
Meredith wants to search the Circle due to the great number of blood mages and Abominations that it seems to be producing (2 in the first quest in Act and Grace's whole group), Orsino refuses.

Yet Meredith refuses to even look at how her own heavyhanded methods may have (and I say they did) contributed to the mess of those first two mages.

Grace is also tied to her own ineptitude.

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't trust her to search an egg basket. She's proven time and again that she can't even properly lead her Templars or control the mages appropriately. She sees plots where they don't exist, fails to keep order, actively incites chaos, and a whole slew of other things.

She may have had grounds for the search (though considering there's nothing left to look for, rebellion's quelled and the threats have been disposed of, I don't see much point in it) but she first needs to admit that she's dropped the ball several times.

And she never does. She shifts the blame onto others. I am not cleaning up her messes. She failed to apprehend Quentin or even make a meaningful effort to do that, tries to use that as leverage against the Champion, failed to keep Grace from inciting rebellion despite her clearly being the ringleader, wanted to kill apostates for simply being apostates rather then take them in (as Starkhaven's Templars requested), can't discipline her own men, allows them to run roughshod over the mages, tasks a group of zealots to "purge" mage sympathizers, doesn't stop Alrik's illegal Tranquilizations despite clearly being able to see that it's going on (because per the lore of DAO, there'd be a record of all of them), and whatever else happens in-game.

Meredith just doesn't even bother to keep order. She just uses chaos as grounds for more domination of the city-state. Orsino at least tries to keep order despite having little power in the Circle thanks to Meredith.

Regardless of Hawke's decision, Orsino runs to the Circle to warn the mages. However, was that all he wanted to do?
When Meredith arrives, Orsino proposes a truce; he will allow her to search the Circle if she revokes the Right.
Second important question: Why not propose this imediatelly after the destruction of the Chantry? Why run to the Circle first?
What if the reason Orsino first ran to the Circle and only then proposed to allow Meredith's search because he had already concealed the evidence of his studies into blood magic.

Incorrect. Orsino fights against the first wave of Templars and tells the other mages in his company to get to the Gallows. They are the ones who bring word, and he eventually leaves to meet up with them.

Plus, he never really gets the opportunity to make the offer. As soon as he pleads for the Champion's support (and the Champion gives it or not) battle immediately ensues. For all we know, after the Champion gave his/her support he would've said "See? Meredith, you can't do this! Please, search the Gallows if you wish and I'll help!" then and there.

Third important question: Did these mages truly learn how to summon and control demons in the timespan of a night with the threat of impending death affecting their concentration?
It seems more likely to me that they had been studying blood magic for some time before Ander's terrorist attack.

Or the demons are simply pretending to be on their side, and never get the chance to really force possession of the mage because "Priority: That big bearded fellow, his dwarven companion, his Elven Mage LI, and Zoidberg are coming at us with nasty, angry, mean snarls on their faces."

Forceful possession probably takes a bit of time. It is a battle of wills after all.

And SOME demons are there regardless. The Pride Demon on the docks for instance is always there.

Fourth important question: If Orsino had never used blood magic before, how was he capable of mixing several different bodies together to create a perfectly funcional living tank?

Eidetic memory's my assumption, rather then assuming "HE'S CLEARLY A PRACTITIONER".

And even if he hadn't perfected the ritual, he had to have, at least, experimented it with rats or something similar

I highly doubt you could make a Ratvester.

If he was "teaching" blood magic, and that is a very big if, then she might no have been made aware of it, as she was a very recent addition to the Circle.

He personally mentored her and in her first three years she became a Senior Enchanter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 04:12 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

What's eidetic memory?

What is so far fetched about a Ratvester?

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 09 décembre 2013 - 04:20 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Ok, to be fair, watching your sister kill 70 plus people is certainly a very sobering reality, and it would screw up just about anybody. Also, she did nothing to Emile de Launcet, if he was returned to the Circle either.

The only thing that screwed up Meredith was the Red Lyrium.

Are you really trying to say that witnessing your sister die, be transformed into a monster, and slaughter other people isn't going to psychologically screw you up?

Because people have been damaged by far less in our world.

The Red Lyrium just exacerbated her already damaged psyche. Saying "Red Lyrium's the only thing that ****ed her up" is.... whitewashing the issue.

Idunna and Grace/Alain and their cohorts. Twice in the case of Alain,
infact. She also allows Emile to go back despite his claims of being a
blood mage, considering she's "insane" at the moment and isn't listening
to anyone and ruling the entire city, this speaks volume.

Idunna, yes.

Grace, no. At the time, she was simply an apostate (she's had six years to become a blood mage, so let's not say she was one). And she had originally wanted the entire group killed. When they surrender peacefully, she kills three random Mages in the group to serve an example.

A bad one, because if you wanted to make an example out of a group of rebels you'd kill their ringleader.

Alain, no and yes. He was only an apostate the first time (again though, she wanted the entire group killed simply for being apostates) and while he was a blood mage later on, was this known to her? It's not like Cullen saw the confrontation or the blood magic being performed.

And Emile, for all of his idiocy, was the son of a minor noble. She bent over backwards for Gascard, another minor noble, so I doubt she's going to antagonize the Comte de Launcet despite how she wants to kill him. That's less about being "forgiving" and more about being slightly practical, considering Kirkwall's nobility want her gone desperately.

Not executed but were made tranquil

If they were sent free in Act 1, then three random mages are made tranquil in Act 2.

If they were brought to the Gallows in Act 1, then three random mages are executed upon being brought there. Thrask says this in Act 1.

[TEWR]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

What's eidetic memory?

What is so far fetched about a Ratvester?

Is that Noctowl? EDIT: It is! Awesome! Noctowl!

Eidetic memory is being able to recall anything you read or see perfectly. Since I don't see any notes in his hand and I've since made a headcanon that it helped him be a better mage (since he's clearly a capable one in many instances), eidetic memory's what I think.

But again, it's my personal headcanon.

I just... don't see a Ratvester as being possible. One, it's absolutely ludicrous that the mere image makes me wanna laugh (seriously, imagine a Ratvester). Two, I doubt even practicing on rats could then be extended to "let's try it on ME!".

This isn't like animal testing in the real world where certain animals have similarities to us regarding X, Y, or Z.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

He was indeed more strict and harsh back then,but he never breaked the rules.

I'd say backhanding a pregnant woman with a gauntlet just for speaking is breaking the rules of how the Circle exists to defend mages from people.

Not that I hate Gregoir, mind you. I actually think he's the best model we have, to date, of what a Templar should be.

But I do hate the comics he appeared in, even if I must accept it as canon.

Let us be honest here, he did not backhand her "just for talking".

[TEWR]

IIRC, the image had her speak and he told her to shut her mouth while backhanding her. But it's been a while since I've seen the actual image itself.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 05:47 .

[TEWR]

Ah, found it. He backhanded her for refusing to tell him who the father was.



It's hard to make out precisely (and you can't zoom in) but the image says "Your leader is away, witch. So you will answer to me. Who is the father?

I can't make out the subsequent dialogue.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 décembre 2013 - 05:51 .