Aller au contenu

Photo

The Circle system as a totalitarian police state


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
1858 réponses à ce sujet

#1326
Vulpe

Vulpe
  • Members
  • 1 440 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Blood mage" is a title given to a person who actively practices and uses blood magic. An "Academic Blood Mage" therefore can't exist.


Would you prefer Blood Mage Academic?

I don't see why the two has to be connected at all.


It's just represents the way you learned it : reading and applying the instructions from a book or "OH MIGHTY DEMON, SHOW ME HOW TO CUT MY BUTT SO THAT I CAN DO HOCUS POCUS ON THOSE TEMPLAR BADDIES :crying: "

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:39 .


#1327
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Blood mage" is a title given to a person who actively practices and uses blood magic. An "Academic Blood Mage" therefore can't exist.


Would you prefer Blood Mage Academic?

I don't see why the two has to be connected at all.


It's just represents the way you learned it : reading and applying the instructions from a book or "OH MIGHTY DEMON, SHOW ME HOW TO CUT MY BUTT SO THAT I CAN DO HOCUS POCUS ON THOSE TEMPLAR BADDIES :crying: "

By why bother with discerning between the two? One is not any less of a blood amge than the other. One is not more powerful than the other. There is no difference between them, other than the way they learned blood magic, so why bother with discerning between them?

#1328
Vulpe

Vulpe
  • Members
  • 1 440 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Blood mage" is a title given to a person who actively practices and uses blood magic. An "Academic Blood Mage" therefore can't exist.


Would you prefer Blood Mage Academic?

I don't see why the two has to be connected at all.


It's just represents the way you learned it : reading and applying the instructions from a book or "OH MIGHTY DEMON, SHOW ME HOW TO CUT MY BUTT SO THAT I CAN DO HOCUS POCUS ON THOSE TEMPLAR BADDIES :crying: "

By why bother with discerning between the two? One is not any less of a blood amge than the other. One is not more powerful than the other. There is no difference between them, other than the way they learned blood magic, so why bother with discerning between them?


Because the one that learned it through books didn't have any contact to a demon to do it, so no faustian deal.

You saw Jowan - he was disgusted by the Desire Demon offer. If he had learned it from a demon then he would have had bigger chances of relapsing.

A blood mage that learns if from a demon has bigger chances of becoming corrupt than one tha learns if from a book because the demon will always want something in return and it will keep in touch with the respectiv mage, while a blood mage that didn't interact with demons would just have a harder time resisting the temptations that every mage faces.

Some might fall to temptation, some might not.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 09 décembre 2013 - 08:56 .


#1329
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages
Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons, it matters not how you learn blood magic, once you use it, you are in the cahoots with demons. The reason Jowan was disgusted by the Desire Demon was not because he learned blood magic through a book, but because he was genuinely repentive of his actions.

#1330
Vulpe

Vulpe
  • Members
  • 1 440 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons, it matters not how you learn blood magic, once you use it, you are in the cahoots with demons. The reason Jowan was disgusted by the Desire Demon was not because he learned blood magic through a book, but because he was genuinely repentive of his actions.


 Still, it's better when you are not indebt to a demon.One might fall to the temptation and later make a deal with one, but this is just a high chance possibility. If you learn it from a demon, then it's for granted.The demon will ask something from you for certain.

#1331
Uccio

Uccio
  • Members
  • 4 696 messages
^^ I was under the impression that Old Gods tought Magisters blood magic, not demons.

Modifié par Ukki, 09 décembre 2013 - 09:46 .


#1332
Vulpe

Vulpe
  • Members
  • 1 440 messages

Ukki wrote...

^ I was under the impression that Old Gods tought Magisters blood magic, not demons.


Some people see the Old Gods as powerful demon dragons.

Now we're discussing the mages that learn it from books (like Jowan) or from demons ( like the mage warden - if he/she wants to ).

#1333
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

Ukki wrote...

^^ I was under the impression that Old Gods tought Magisters blood magic, not demons.

The origins of the magic does not matter. The magic itself IS connected to demons. There is no way around that fact.

Also, we have codex entries that seem to indicate that Blood Magic indeed originates from demons and not the Old Gods.

#1334
Riverdaleswhiteflash

Riverdaleswhiteflash
  • Members
  • 7 951 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons, it matters not how you learn blood magic, once you use it, you are in the cahoots with demons. The reason Jowan was disgusted by the Desire Demon was not because he learned blood magic through a book, but because he was genuinely repentive of his actions.


If you didn't make a deal to get it, how are you in cahoots with the demons? I'm a little lost here.

#1335
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 494 messages

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

And what im saying what talking about risk and aren't we talk about peoples who don't have system be against them it only makes thing harder but as i said if you take right (not about morality) choices you can reach that only problem is in if you take this right choices.:devil:


I'm not so much talking about risk as factors such as the lack of startup money, the lack of skills to make said startup money, and other things you might need to spend said startup money on.


And as i said on both you have impact you can teach skill and you can get money how even damn steal from someone take your pick your decision even genius habe to teach his skills they aren't instant expert... 


Learning this skill requires a teacher, and money. Getting the money requires a skill (unless you think it's easy to steal as much money as this requires), and you might have to spend money on something else in the meantime. Like food or taxes. It's easier than you think to find yourself in a hole you can't get out of. (Much of Thedas finds themselves born into it.)


Eeee teacher is only one way to learn there is practice , book and other source of informations so you are thinking very limited way so i guess you will end there where you started...

#1336
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ukki wrote...

^^ I was under the impression that Old Gods tought Magisters blood magic, not demons.

The origins of the magic does not matter. The magic itself IS connected to demons. There is no way around that fact.

Also, we have codex entries that seem to indicate that Blood Magic indeed originates from demons and not the Old Gods.


And we also have sources that claim the elves of Arlathan taught the magisters blood magic.,...:whistle:
But in all honesty, if the elves knew it, they too got it from a demon or spiritual entity.

Modifié par eluvianix, 09 décembre 2013 - 12:08 .


#1337
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons, it matters not how you learn blood magic, once you use it, you are in the cahoots with demons. The reason Jowan was disgusted by the Desire Demon was not because he learned blood magic through a book, but because he was genuinely repentive of his actions.


If you didn't make a deal to get it, how are you in cahoots with the demons? I'm a little lost here.

Because Blood Magic still derives its power from Demons, no matter how you learned it.

#1338
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons, it matters not how you learn blood magic, once you use it, you are in the cahoots with demons. The reason Jowan was disgusted by the Desire Demon was not because he learned blood magic through a book, but because he was genuinely repentive of his actions.


If you didn't make a deal to get it, how are you in cahoots with the demons? I'm a little lost here.

Because Blood Magic still derives its power from Demons, no matter how you learned it.

It also derives its power from life and death, pain and violence, all of which is catnip to demons.

#1339
Lord Raijin

Lord Raijin
  • Members
  • 2 777 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

He was indeed more strict and harsh back then,but he never breaked the rules.


I'd
say backhanding a pregnant woman with a gauntlet just for speaking is
breaking the rules of how the Circle exists to defend mages from people.

Not that I hate Gregoir, mind you. I actually think he's the best model we have, to date, of what a Templar should be.

But I do hate the comics he appeared in, even if I must accept it as canon.

Let us be honest here, he did not backhand her "just for talking".


merged post.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah, found it. He backhanded her for refusing to tell him who the father was.

Posted Image

It's hard to make out precisely (and you can't zoom in) but the image says "Your leader is away, witch. So you will answer to me. Who is the father?

I can't make out the subsequent dialogue.


I thought these comics who were not written by David Gaider was strictly fanfiction base? That holds no leverage over the actual canon.

I don't remember Wynne saying anything about getting beaten up by the templars for getting pregnate. In fact we still don't know who Rhys father is. We can only speculate that the father might be Irving or Greagoir.

In this particular comic wasn't their a partcular spell that can detect who the father of the unborn child is?

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 09 décembre 2013 - 01:28 .


#1340
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 587 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Yet Meredith refuses to even look at how her own heavyhanded methods may have (and I say they did) contributed to the mess of those first two mages.

Grace is also tied to her own ineptitude.

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't trust her to search an egg basket. She's proven time and again that she can't even properly lead her Templars or control the mages appropriately. She sees plots where they don't exist, fails to keep order, actively incites chaos, and a whole slew of other things.

She may have had grounds for the search (though considering there's nothing left to look for, rebellion's quelled and the threats have been disposed of, I don't see much point in it) but she first needs to admit that she's dropped the ball several times.

And she never does. She shifts the blame onto others. I am not cleaning up her messes. She failed to apprehend Quentin or even make a meaningful effort to do that, tries to use that as leverage against the Champion, failed to keep Grace from inciting rebellion despite her clearly being the ringleader, wanted to kill apostates for simply being apostates rather then take them in (as Starkhaven's Templars requested), can't discipline her own men, allows them to run roughshod over the mages, tasks a group of zealots to "purge" mage sympathizers, doesn't stop Alrik's illegal Tranquilizations despite clearly being able to see that it's going on (because per the lore of DAO, there'd be a record of all of them), and whatever else happens in-game.

Meredith just doesn't even bother to keep order. She just uses chaos as grounds for more domination of the city-state. Orsino at least tries to keep order despite having little power in the Circle thanks to Meredith.

Orsino tries to keep order? His very first action in the third act is to incite a rebellion. Meanwhile, Meredith seems to be right on the money when she says there is a plot against her. In fact, I seem to recall every mage Meredith lay charges against ending up doing something that proved her right all along.

I am not going to say that Meredith also didn't contribute somewhat to the aggravation of the situation  or that a search would have gone without some bumps, but there are good reasons to search the Circle because, virtually, every blood mage in Act 3 came from it. If Orsino had nothing to hide, then he should have just let the Templars do their jobs.


Incorrect. Orsino fights against the first wave of Templars and tells the other mages in his company to get to the Gallows. They are the ones who bring word, and he eventually leaves to meet up with them.

Plus, he never really gets the opportunity to make the offer. As soon as he pleads for the Champion's support (and the Champion gives it or not) battle immediately ensues. For all we know, after the Champion gave his/her support he would've said "See? Meredith, you can't do this! Please, search the Gallows if you wish and I'll help!" then and there.

He had plenty of opportunities. He yelled at Anders, pleaded with Hawke; he could have, at any point, offered Meredith to search the Circle. But he didn't; not until he had been there first. Imagine if a policeman catchs a suspect in the streets and claims to want to search his home for evidence. The suspect staunchly argues he doesn't have the right to do that but, after he had been to his home, he suddenly becomes very cooperative. Sounds suspicious, doesn't it?

Also, if Hawke sides with the Templars, it's Orsino who takes the initiative to start a fight and order his mages to stall the Champion and the Knight Commander. Another opportunity he could have used to offer Meredith the option to search the Circle if that is what he intended all along.

Or the demons are simply pretending to be on their side, and never get the chance to really force possession of the mage because "Priority: That big bearded fellow, his dwarven companion, his Elven Mage LI, and Zoidberg are coming at us with nasty, angry, mean snarls on their faces."

Forceful possession probably takes a bit of time. It is a battle of wills after all.

That's not really how demons work. For instance, in the Warden's Keep, the demons didn't seem to care that he castle was surrounded by fereldan forces, they attacked soldier and Grey Warden alike.
It's possible that a demon or two could have come up with that strategy but for an entire army of them to have that very same plan? Very doubtful.
And that wouldn't change the fact the mages knew how to summon demons in the first place which is still not something you learn in a couple of hours.

And SOME demons are there regardless. The Pride Demon on the docks for instance is always there.

True.


Eidetic memory's my assumption, rather then assuming "HE'S CLEARLY A PRACTITIONER".

A quick google search tells me eidetic memory is entirely fictional.
And even if it wasn't, eidetic memory; despite him showing no other evidence of it; is somehow more likely than "studying"?

I highly doubt you could make a Ratvester.

Why not? Flesh is flesh.

#1341
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

Lord Raijin wrote...

I don't remember Wynne saying anything about getting beaten up by the templars for getting pregnate. In fact we still don't know who Rhys father is. We can only speculate that the father might be Irving or Greagoir.

In this particular comic wasn't their a partcular spell that can detect who the father of the unborn child is?


Wynne said that father was indeed a Templar.

#1342
Silfren

Silfren
  • Members
  • 4 748 messages

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Blood mage" is a title given to a person who actively practices and uses blood magic. An "Academic Blood Mage" therefore can't exist.


Would you prefer Blood Mage Academic?

I don't see why the two has to be connected at all.


It's just represents the way you learned it : reading and applying the instructions from a book or "OH MIGHTY DEMON, SHOW ME HOW TO CUT MY BUTT SO THAT I CAN DO HOCUS POCUS ON THOSE TEMPLAR BADDIES :crying: "

By why bother with discerning between the two? One is not any less of a blood amge than the other. One is not more powerful than the other. There is no difference between them, other than the way they learned blood magic, so why bother with discerning between them?


Because the one that learned it through books didn't have any contact to a demon to do it, so no faustian deal.

You saw Jowan - he was disgusted by the Desire Demon offer. If he had learned it from a demon then he would have had bigger chances of relapsing.

A blood mage that learns if from a demon has bigger chances of becoming corrupt than one tha learns if from a book because the demon will always want something in return and it will keep in touch with the respectiv mage, while a blood mage that didn't interact with demons would just have a harder time resisting the temptations that every mage faces.

Some might fall to temptation, some might not.


I actually have to agree that attaching a descriptive term to "blood mage" to denote how they became such doesn't explain it the way some people seem to think.  "Academic blood mage" does not generally send the message of "this person learned the art of blood magic through books," or "this person only knows ABOUT blood magic through study, they are not actually a user of blood magic."  "Blood mage academic," doesn't do that, either.  Here, it sounds more like a person who is both a blood mage practitioner AND an academic.

Maybe it would be different for another language that users descriptors and qualifiers in a different way, but not so much for English. 

I do have to throw in my own two cents though that I do think there should be a distinction made between people who use blood magic with flagrant disregard for whoever might be hurt, or for selfish gain, versus those who use it merely as a tool, especially if the latter make use of their own blood.  Blood magic is dangerous, sure, but that doesn't mean it does not have legitimate applications or that it should be rejected altogether if a desperate situation actually calls for it. 

Re: Adralla, I personally DO think that she was a blood mage in the sense of practicing blood magic.  The Chantry may not want to put much, or any, emphasis on that, but I don't believe for a moment that Adralla could have developed methods for countering every known use of blood magic and mind control without, you know, actually testing it.  Unless anyone seriously thinks that she merely had to read some books and watch some blood magic in action, and then write up her Litany and voila!--out of nothing, it worked perfectly from its first draft. 

Of course, the argument could be made that she wasn't a de facto blood mage, if she only ever resorted to it for the purpose of developing counters against it, as opposed to someone who embraces the practice as a legitimate school of magic that they practice from then on..and I don't personally think that it's necessary or accurate to label someone as a blood mage for all time if they used it once (per Malcolm Hawke...I don't think he was a blood mage, but a man who was forced to use blood magic one time in his life in order to protect his family).

#1343
Vulpe

Vulpe
  • Members
  • 1 440 messages

Lord Raijin wrote...

I don't remember Wynne saying anything about getting beaten up by the templars for getting pregnate. In fact we still don't know who Rhys father is. We can only speculate that the father might be Irving or Greagoir.

In this particular comic wasn't their a partcular spell that can detect who the father of the unborn child is?


You can cut Irving from the list. Wynne said that the father was a templar. I also think that Gregoir might be the father. Besides Irving, he's the oldest member in that Circle and you can't say that Wynne was too young compared to him.

As for the spell - yes, but the templar that let her pregnant snached a mage that was in love with her and dragged him to the enchanted bowl . When the magical smoke responded, it engulfed both of them, but the templars believed that the mage was the father. 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 09 décembre 2013 - 06:42 .


#1344
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 425 messages

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How is he so sure the father's a mage:blink:


He assumes, because Templars aren't supposed to be doing that kind of thing.


Ah so he's getting the two out of his ass then. I thought he might've had suspicions about who the father was.

#1345
Silfren

Silfren
  • Members
  • 4 748 messages

Lord Raijin wrote...

I thought these comics who were not written by David Gaider was strictly fanfiction base? That holds no leverage over the actual canon.


Doesn't have to be written by Gaider to be official.  If it's created by Bioware, it's not fanfiction.  Especially, I'd think, if it's a story that takes place chronologically before the events that began with Origins.

I don't remember Wynne saying anything about getting beaten up by the templars for getting pregnate. In fact we still don't know who Rhys father is. We can only speculate that the father might be Irving or Greagoir.


The woman in that comic is not Wynne, so I'm not sure why it matters what Wynne did or didn't say.  Regardless, I have to point out that Wynne not mentioning something is NOT proof that it didn't happen. 

#1346
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 994 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons


Has yet to be proven without a doubt, as it's often contested in-game and different sources attribute blood magic to different things (Demons, Old Gods, Elves, simply stabbing yourself).

#1347
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 994 messages

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic is by its nature connected to demons, it matters not how you learn blood magic, once you use it, you are in the cahoots with demons. The reason Jowan was disgusted by the Desire Demon was not because he learned blood magic through a book, but because he was genuinely repentive of his actions.


If you didn't make a deal to get it, how are you in cahoots with the demons? I'm a little lost here.

Because Blood Magic still derives its power from Demons, no matter how you learned it.


No, it doesn't. Regular magic is tied to the Fade, blood magic is tied to the physical realm. Blood magic has an effect on the barrier between the two realms, but it does NOT derive its power from demons.

#1348
The Flying Grey Warden

The Flying Grey Warden
  • Members
  • 950 messages
So in other words greagoir broke his vows as a templar? This could give a lot of leverage to be used against him by a more cut throat type of guy.

So very interesting.

#1349
HiroVoid

HiroVoid
  • Members
  • 3 693 messages
It's possible the father may have been moved to another tower or succumbed to lyrium poisoning earlier.

#1350
The Flying Grey Warden

The Flying Grey Warden
  • Members
  • 950 messages
Or it's greagoir, and he's in for quite the blackmailing if I ever find out in character. XD

"So, how much lyrium did you say was in the stockrooms again?"