1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: First, I don't mind being painted as anything by people who know a fake name and some hastily scrawled words on a gaming forum. However you would like to perceive me is perfectly okay with me.

As for mages. Maybe you've never seen any of my, admittedly rare, mage positive posts - but I don't believe that it's even a discussion of whether or not the current system is "fine" or whether the current system "works". It does not - and while I find it appealing in a literary sense, if I were to discuss it from a moral standpoint - it is untenable.

Likewise, I don't think the Templars are even worth discussing since they are so obviously not capable of functioning in their current state. They've gone so far beyond the cautionary police force that there's not a bit for me even to discuss about their utter annihilation and possible restructuring.

But, I've seen many posters that, through their own words suggest they support mages (such a chore not being able to just say "Pro-Mage") suggest that there's nothing at all wrong with mages governing themselves (like that works with self-governing organizations in the real world) - that mages need what seems like only the most rudimentary study to resist demons (because any "real" mage can just resist demons and they ONLY pose a threat because of the Chantry) - and the absolutely most deluded argument, that they pose no greater threat than mundanes.

Who's supposed to support these mages now? The Circle buildings don't belong to mages - they belong to the Chantry, and despite what mages say, they do not "deserve" the buildings.

Just saying: We'll sell magic is - in my opinion - naive and deluded. How do you regulate which mages make money for the Circles? Which mages get to freeload? Can mages just skip an education?

The idea that after this rebellion - Thedas will just hand over buildings, resources and good will... is what makes me believe that some "people who have expressed support to mages" - want their cake and eat it too.

You can disagree all you wish.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 décembre 2013 - 08:03 .

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Or maybe you need to step back and let people speak and bring their "baggage" into the forums. Let them express here what they might not be able to IRL.

Expressing is fine but please, keep it out of debates when it's not a proper equivalent. For instance, it would be nice if users could take a step back and realize that mages can't serve as analogies for real world issues because there are no social groups in the real world that can spit fire or become Eldritch Abominations at any given moment.
It gets especially aggravating when arguments consist solely of that: "Mages are X so, if you support the Templars you are against X which makes you a (insert derogatory term here) and (derogatory term) are bad."

Bolded #1: While we cannot draw full analogies, I would argue that we have to analyze them somehow. Physically, yes, there is no analogy for them AT ALL. But socially, I would say that there most certainly are analogies. Again though, that is my own take on the subject. However, that argument is a whole other ball game and thread on its own, and I am really not interested in rehashing that argument again.

I cannot speak for others, but I rarely do the bolded #2.
1: It is rude.
2: I think it is exceedingly ridiculous to label some people that way. Just because some templars do nasty things doesn't mean that a Templar supporter supports those acts. Mages have been raped by some Templars, but that hardly means that a person who supports the Templar Order supports and condones rape.

We can't all have extremist ideals, now can we? 

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to use analogies for the sake of having one. Mages come with an inheirent danger. These IRL groups don't. I don't think that the way that it is handled is the proper one, but I also don't think that just let the mages wonder with no supervison is the proper way. 

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Every debate I've hsd on the bsn has devloved into bolded point 2.

Look at one of the first posts in this thread. Someone brough up their experience as a person from a communist state as a prerequisite for supporting the OP. this is a pretty good tell for what you can expect in the discussion, which isnless to do with circles and more to do with irl communists regimes.

Also posters like plantiff and raijin and the ine who tried to argue killing and brutally suppressing religion in thedas would make everyone happy.

And they are drawing on their own life experiences to support the OP. Why deny them that right? That post was not inflammatory by any stretch of the imagination, and was perfectly valid.

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Or maybe you need to step back and let people speak and bring their "baggage" into the forums. Let them express here what they might not be able to IRL.

Expressing is fine but please, keep it out of debates when it's not a proper equivalent. For instance, it would be nice if users could take a step back and realize that mages can't serve as analogies for real world issues because there are no social groups in the real world that can spit fire or become Eldritch Abominations at any given moment.
It gets especially aggravating when arguments consist solely of that: "Mages are X so, if you support the Templars you are against X which makes you a (insert derogatory term here) and (derogatory term) are bad."

Bolded #1: While we cannot draw full analogies, I would argue that we have to analyze them somehow. Physically, yes, there is no analogy for them AT ALL. But socially, I would say that there most certainly are analogies. Again though, that is my own take on the subject. However, that argument is a whole other ball game and thread on its own, and I am really not interested in rehashing that argument again.

I cannot speak for others, but I rarely do the bolded #2.
1: It is rude.
2: I think it is exceedingly ridiculous to label some people that way. Just because some templars do nasty things doesn't mean that a Templar supporter supports those acts. Mages have been raped by some Templars, but that hardly means that a person who supports the Templar Order supports and condones rape.

We can't all have extremist ideals, now can we? 

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to use analogies for the sake of having one. Mages come with an inheirent danger. These IRL groups don't. I don't think that the way that it is handled is the proper one, but I also don't think that just let the mages wonder with no supervison is the proper way. 

All I can do is go with what feels right in my heart. Nothing more, nothing less. At this point, I am willing to agree to disagree, because I am not planning on changing anytime soon.

[Steelcan]

Don't ever go with what feels right in your heart, use the thing between your ears

[Lord Raijin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This fanbase needs a great purge imo. Too many people bringing their IRL baggage into the game, then demanding it follow their world view and exclude everyone elses.

In the words of the great short lived King Joffery Baratheon, Kill them all.

I suppose you're right. I am carrying my IRL baggage into the game. When I first started playing Dragon age I realize that something was not right about the way mages are being treated. It triggered an emotional response to which reminded me back when I was locked up for having a life crises after my mother unexpectedly passed away.

Nobody has the right to take anyone elses freedom away for as long as they didn't commit a crime. Since when being a mage is consider to be a criminal act? Since when did it became a life sentence? Oppression causes wars. The templars and the Chantry enabled this war and now they have it.

In Dragon Age 2 Anders said something that was completely relevant and valid. He asked my mage Hawke that shouldn't the mages have the freedom that I (My hawke) had, and you know what? I agree with him. If my Hawke could live as a free mage so should everyone else. My Hawke plus Bethany never had circle training; never undergo the Harrowing, and yet we manage to survive without being posessed. The templars wants to stick their noses down at everyones business. They're too busy harassing the mages that they fail to see their own curruption within their military organzation.

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Or maybe
you need to step back and let people speak and bring their "baggage"
into the forums. Let them express here what they might not be able to
IRL.

Expressing is fine but please, keep it out of
debates when it's not a proper equivalent. For instance, it would be
nice if users could take a step back and realize that mages can't serve
as analogies for real world issues because there are no social groups in
the real world that can spit fire or become Eldritch Abominations at
any given moment.
It gets especially aggravating when arguments
consist solely of that: "Mages are X so, if you support the Templars you
are against X which makes you a (insert derogatory term here) and
(derogatory term) are bad."

You know what is more aggravating and silly? Using the word "Abomination" as an excuse for locking up mages. When will it end already?

Funny how that Hermit old man from the forest, as crazy as he is, never became an abomination. Same goes for the Hawke family.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 03 décembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Bolded #1: While we cannot draw full analogies, I would argue that we have to analyze them somehow. Physically, yes, there is no analogy for them AT ALL. But socially, I would say that there most certainly are analogies. Again though, that is my own take on the subject. However, that argument is a whole other ball game and thread on its own, and I am really not interested in rehashing that argument again.

Magic is large enough a factor that what might be unjustifiable in our world is not so in Thedas.

I cannot speak for others, but I rarely do the bolded #2.
1: It is rude.
2: I think it is exceedingly ridiculous to label some people that way. Just because some templars do nasty things doesn't mean that a Templar supporter supports those acts. Mages have been raped by some Templars, but that hardly means that a person who supports the Templar Order supports and condones rape.

And that is commendable. But a great many number of pro-mages do just that.

[Hellion Rex]

Steelcan wrote...

Don't ever go with what feels right in your heart, use the thing between your ears

Nope. My logical skills suck. My brain has never been my strongest attribute. I am entirely right-brained dominant, and have barely 10% left brained proficiency. I might be very well read, but I don't trust my logic for sh*t. I would like to believe that I have some damned good intuition. My heart has rarely led me astray.

Modifié par eluvianix, 03 décembre 2013 - 08:21 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

And that is commendable. But a great many number of pro-mages do just that.

And that is their own battle to fight, not mine. I have no place telling them what is right and what is wrong. All I can do is profess what I myself believe in.

[Master Warder Z_]

 I personally see no problem with the circle although i cannot help but somewhat agree with the labeling of it; But that said the controls issued to the templars by the chantry in their duty of guarding and watching over mages are a needed thing.

Its so easy to harp upon freedom and apply modern social constructs to a fictional universe where they either don't exist or exist in radically diffrent forms, Now in this world of "democracy" and "Republics" People tend to take a dim view of any Totalitarian regime;  But in dragon age there are nations that do live under that banner of control and constant security.

So ultimately i view it as the most viable course for containing the threat of magic from the world; Not exactly a nice thing, but a needed thing.

[Vulpe]

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Or maybe you need to step back and let people speak and bring their "baggage" into the forums. Let them express here what they might not be able to IRL.

Expressing is fine but please, keep it out of debates when it's not a proper equivalent. For instance, it would be nice if users could take a step back and realize that mages can't serve as analogies for real world issues because there are no social groups in the real world that can spit fire or become Eldritch Abominations at any given moment.
It gets especially aggravating when arguments consist solely of that: "Mages are X so, if you support the Templars you are against X which makes you a (insert derogatory term here) and (derogatory term) are bad."

Bolded #1: While we cannot draw full analogies, I would argue that we have to analyze them somehow. Physically, yes, there is no analogy for them AT ALL. But socially, I would say that there most certainly are analogies. Again though, that is my own take on the subject. However, that argument is a whole other ball game and thread on its own, and I am really not interested in rehashing that argument again.

I cannot speak for others, but I rarely do the bolded #2.
1: It is rude.
2: I think it is exceedingly ridiculous to label some people that way. Just because some templars do nasty things doesn't mean that a Templar supporter supports those acts. Mages have been raped by some Templars, but that hardly means that a person who supports the Templar Order supports and condones rape.

We can't all have extremist ideals, now can we? 

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to use analogies for the sake of having one. Mages come with an inheirent danger. These IRL groups don't. I don't think that the way that it is handled is the proper one, but I also don't think that just let the mages wonder with no supervison is the proper way. 

Sometimes this analogies make the job easier for some people to express themselves. While they are not 100% accurate, they are helpful, especialy for the ones who have a different first language than english and are not extraordinary at english because of lesser grammar skills or the lack of a fully developed vocabulary that might constrain their ways of expressing an ideea or a point.

As long as they are presented in a civilized manner and are not offensive to a certain individual or group of individuals on the BSN and outside of it, there shouldn't be any problem.

Steelcan wrote...

Don't ever go with what feels right in your heart, use the thing between your ears

It's funny. The only thing you can feel with your heart is a possible heart attack. The brain is responsible with all that means emotion...and logic.Scumbag Brain<_<

[Cainhurst Crow]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And that is commendable. But a great many number of pro-mages do just that.

And that is their own battle to fight, not mine. I have no place telling them what is right and what is wrong. All I can do is profess what I myself believe in.

You happen to be one of the better posters on this site. Believe it or not.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
And that is their own battle to fight, not mine. I have no place telling them what is right and what is wrong. All I can do is profess what I myself believe in.

What you believe in (and by "you", I'm referring to BSN in general) should be applied upon the logic of the game's world, not our own world. Ideals that make sense in our world don't necessarely make sense in Thedas.
Hence, the previous suggestion of leaving one's bagagge at home.

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

It's funny. The only thing you can feel with your heart is a possible heart attack. The brain is responsible with all that means emotion...and logic.Scumbag Brain<_<

Twas but an expression my friend.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
And that is their own battle to fight, not mine. I have no place telling them what is right and what is wrong. All I can do is profess what I myself believe in.

What you believe in (and by "you", I'm referring to BSN in general) should be applied upon the logic of the game's world, not our own world. Ideals that make sense in our world don't necessarely make sense in Thedas.
Hence, the previous suggestion of leaving one's bagagge at home.

That is a completely understandable viewpoint, but even still, we bring unconsciously bring in our ideals with us, no matter how we impartial we might try to be. And everyone can and will disagree on what ideals don't necessarily make sense within the confines of Thedas. Everyone's ideals are colored by their extremely different life experiences, both good and bad. In turn, we bring all that we are into a game when we step in the shoes of a PC.

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

It's funny. The only thing you can feel with your heart is a possible heart attack. The brain is responsible with all that means emotion...and logic.Scumbag Brain<_<

Twas but an expression my friend.

I know. That's why I said it's funny. For centuries people belived that the heart is responsable with emotions and that the brain is not such an important organ.The egyptians thought the brain is so unimportant that they got it out through the nose of the future mummy. Well, I guess the future med school student in me starts to speak. I'll silence him for now 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 08:34 .

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And that is commendable. But a great many number of pro-mages do just that.

And that is their own battle to fight, not mine. I have no place telling them what is right and what is wrong. All I can do is profess what I myself believe in.

You happen to be one of the better posters on this site. Believe it or not.

Whether or not that was sarcastic, I do not care. Thank you all the same.

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

It's funny. The only thing you can feel with your heart is a possible heart attack. The brain is responsible with all that means emotion...and logic.Scumbag Brain<_<

Twas but an expression my friend.

I know. That's why I said it's funny. For centuries people belived that the heart is responsable with emotions and that the brain is not such an important organ.The egyptians thought the brain is so unimportant that they they got it out through the nose of the future mummy. Well, I guess the future med school student in me starts to speak. I'll silence him for now 

Trust me, we might need that doctor when the game comes out. I can already smell the blood of the upcoming fights to be had next fall. People will get nasty.

[Cainhurst Crow]

My heart says there's a better way out there somewhere. For templars and for mages, and that there doesnt have to be a one or the other slaughter to find it.

My heart says the circles aren't bad, my heart says mages aren't inherently evil, and my heart says thst templars are just folks trying to do their jobs and doing what they think they have to to protect others, same with a lot of runaway mages.

But its like everytime something gets close to happening, a genuine moment of human peace and understanding, someone or something has to come snd ruin it by jerking things to one extreme or the other.

So basically no, I don't thinknthe circles are any more a totalitarian system then a standardized education policy system with its manditory enrollment and participation or current law enforcement arrangement for my country, the united states. And if those are totalitarian systems as well, thhen maybe small amounts of totalitarianism judt csnt be avoided in a society of standards and laws, and thst the real question is one of degrees.

[Cainhurst Crow]

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And that is commendable. But a great many number of pro-mages do just that.

And that is their own battle to fight, not mine. I have no place telling them what is right and what is wrong. All I can do is profess what I myself believe in.

You happen to be one of the better posters on this site. Believe it or not.

Whether or not that was sarcastic, I do not care. Thank you all the same.

 

No ttrolling or sarcastic.

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

My heart says there's a better way out there somewhere. For templars and for mages, and that there doesnt have to be a one or the other slaughter to find it.

My heart says the circles aren't bad, my heart says mages aren't inherently evil, and my heart says thst templars are just folks trying to do their jobs and doing what they think they have to to protect others, same with a lot of runaway mages.

But its like everytime something gets close to happening, a genuine moment of human peace and understanding, someone or something has to come snd ruin it by jerking things to one extreme or the other.

So basically no, I don't thinknthe circles are any more a totalitarian system then a standardized education policy system with its manditory enrollment and participation or current law enforcement arrangement for my country, the united states. And if those are totalitarian systems as well, thhen maybe small amounts of totalitarianism judt csnt be avoided in a society of standards and laws, and thst the real question is one of degrees.

Unfortunately, that is something you will be unable to avoid in life. All you can do is roll with the punches, and do not let it compromise what you believe in.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
In Dragon Age 2 Anders said something that was completely relevant and valid. He asked my mage Hawke that shouldn't the mages have the freedom that I (My hawke) had, and you know what? I agree with him. If my Hawke could live as a free mage so should everyone else. My Hawke plus Bethany never had circle training; never undergo the Harrowing, and yet we manage to survive without being posessed. The templars wants to stick their noses down at everyones business. They're too busy harassing the mages that they fail to see their own curruption within their military organzation.

It is true that Bethany survived many years outside of the Circle without becoming an Abomination. But it is also true a great many apostates have become Abominations, for instance Connor.
Therefore, it is a gamble. A mage may or may not become an Abomination. But if s/he does, hundreds if not thousands of people will die. On the other hand, if that mage is placed in the Circle, the worse that will happen is that mage will have to live a life of seclusion.
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
In Dragon Age 2 Anders said something that was completely relevant and valid. He asked my mage Hawke that shouldn't the mages have the freedom that I (My hawke) had, and you know what? I agree with him. If my Hawke could live as a free mage so should everyone else. My Hawke plus Bethany never had circle training; never undergo the Harrowing, and yet we manage to survive without being posessed. The templars wants to stick their noses down at everyones business. They're too busy harassing the mages that they fail to see their own curruption within their military organzation.

It is true that Bethany survived many years outside of the Circle without becoming an Abomination. But it is also true a great many apostates have become Abominations, for instance Connor.
Therefore, it is a gamble. A mage may or may not become an Abomination. But if s/he does, hundreds if not thousands of people will die. On the other hand, if that mage is placed in the Circle, the worse that will happen is that mage will have to live a life of seclusion.
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

Individual liberty versus collective security. Security dilemma 101.

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

It's funny. The only thing you can feel with your heart is a possible heart attack. The brain is responsible with all that means emotion...and logic.Scumbag Brain<_<

Twas but an expression my friend.

I know. That's why I said it's funny. For centuries people belived that the heart is responsable with emotions and that the brain is not such an important organ.The egyptians thought the brain is so unimportant that they they got it out through the nose of the future mummy. Well, I guess the future med school student in me starts to speak. I'll silence him for now 

Trust me, we might need that doctor when the game comes out. I can already smell the blood of the upcoming fights to be had next fall. People will get nasty.

Then it's settled. I'll be the Spirit Healer with full herbalism knowledge that secretly knows primal and elemental magic, but uses it only in urgent situations .

Darth Brotarian wrote...

My heart says there's a better way out there somewhere. For templars and for mages, and that there doesnt have to be a one or the other slaughter to find it.

My heart says the circles aren't bad, my heart says mages aren't inherently evil, and my heart says thst templars are just folks trying to do their jobs and doing what they think they have to to protect others, same with a lot of runaway mages.

But its like everytime something gets close to happening, a genuine moment of human peace and understanding, someone or something has to come snd ruin it by jerking things to one extreme or the other.

So basically no, I don't thinknthe circles are any more a totalitarian system then a standardized education policy system with its manditory enrollment and participation or current law enforcement arrangement for my country, the united states. And if those are totalitarian systems as well, thhen maybe small amounts of totalitarianism judt csnt be avoided in a society of standards and laws, and thst the real question is one of degrees.

I would love if we could find a way to make life better for everyone ( mage or non-mage; human, elf, dwarf,grey giant...fex:blink: ; peasant,noble,king ) at the end of DA:I...NO ! At the end of the DA series and to know that we left the world a better place, with lesser problems and suffering.

It would be beautiful:crying:...but ( there's always a but ) life doesn't work that way and it's very possibe the we might not get our ultra extra mega happy ending.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 08:54 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
That is a completely understandable viewpoint, but even still, we bring unconsciously bring in our ideals with us, no matter how we impartial we might try to be. And everyone can and will disagree on what ideals don't necessarily make sense within the confines of Thedas. Everyone's ideals are colored by their extremely different life experiences, both good and bad. In turn, we bring all that we are into a game when we step in the shoes of a PC.

You are right, of course, I think I got a bit sidetracked. After all, my own arguments are based upon my ideals such as "collective security is more important than individual freedom".
Rather, I think ideals should be applied if they make sense to the setting. For instance, I would not argue that the wizards of the HP universe should be kept in Circles because, not only are demons absent but muggles have a very advanced society. Avada Kedavra? We got machine guns; we can call nuclear strikes from space with our iphones. Invisibility cloak? Motion sensors, infrareds.
But Thedas is a medieval setting so, some measures that would be an overreaction in HP's setting are not there.