1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If you do something, even if it is only once, and this action is of enough questionable character, it is going to stick to you. It is a social convention.

In that sense, then it comes down to what one personally believes to be "questionable", as evidenced by people's differing opinions on whether or not Malcolm Hawke is a "blood mage."

It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what Thedas thinks.

It doesn't matter who they are, what matters is their plan.

Nobody cared about them until they put on the mask.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If you do something, even if it is only once, and this action is of enough questionable character, it is going to stick to you. It is a social convention.

In that sense, then it comes down to what one personally believes to be "questionable", as evidenced by people's differing opinions on whether or not Malcolm Hawke is a "blood mage."

It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what Thedas thinks.

It doesn't matter who they are, what matters is their plan.

Nobody cared about them until they put on the mask.

((This looks like fun.)

Bane Mage to Inquisitor: "Theatricality and deception. Powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we Inquisitor? Members of the League of Shadows..."

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:19 .

[Vulpe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A story:
"Here is Heinrich. Look at all these trees. Heinrich planted those, but does anyone call him "Heinrich tree-planter?" No, no one does. Look at all these houses. Heinrich built all those. But does anyone call him "Heinrich housemaker"? No, no one does.
But once, only once, did Heinrich **** a goat......."

It's funny cause in here there are many people that have family names that designate an ocupation like : barber, shoemaker,butcher, soldier,priest,mason,shepard et cetera (of course all in my language ) or family names that designate a certain object related to that job : cheese, boot, knife and others. Even my family name means "well" or the pit of a well, from here the user name.

I think those were nicknames that remained and passed to the children ( John of The Shoemaker, Mary of The Priest ) and became family names.

We actually have some strange ones. One of my friends has a family name that would translate as "Longbeard" and we actually have people that have " sh*t " as a family name  

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 10 décembre 2013 - 10:25 .

[Master Warder Z_]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If you do something, even if it is only once, and this action is of enough questionable character, it is going to stick to you. It is a social convention.

In that sense, then it comes down to what one personally believes to be "questionable", as evidenced by people's differing opinions on whether or not Malcolm Hawke is a "blood mage."

It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what Thedas thinks.

It doesn't matter who they are, what matters is their plan.

Nobody cared about them until they put on the mask.

((This looks like fun.)

Bane Mage to Inquisitor: "Theatricality and deception. Powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we Inquisitor? Members of the League of Shadows..."

 Okay i do admit that was good 

[EmperorSahlertz]

JulianWellpit wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A story:
"Here is Heinrich. Look at all these trees. Heinrich planted those, but does anyone call him "Heinrich tree-planter?" No, no one does. Look at all these houses. Heinrich built all those. But does anyone call him "Heinrich housemaker"? No, no one does.
But once, only once, did Heinrich **** a goat......."

It's funny cause in here there are many people that have family names that designate an ocupation like : barber, shoemaker,butcher, soldier,priest,mason,shepard et cetera (of course all in my language ) or family names that designate a certain object related to that job : cheese, boot, knife and others. Even my family name means "well" or the pit of a well, from here the user name.

I think those were nicknames that remained and passed to the children ( John of The Shoemaker, Mary of The Priest ) and became family names.

We actually have some strange ones. One of my friends has a family name that would translate as "Longbeard" and we actually have people that have " sh*t " as a family name  

In the Netherlands they didn't even use lastnames, until Napoleon Bonaparte conquered them, and brought with him all the french bureaucracy. It soon proved that collecting taxes from citizens without last names was hard, so the french forced all the Dutch to take a lastname. The Dutch however refused to conform to the French ideas of lastname, so instead they took names like van benedendehoek and naaktgeboren, which literally translate to "From down the corner" and "born naked".

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Orsino tries to keep order? His very first action in the third act is to incite a rebellion.Meanwhile, Meredith seems to be right on the money when she says there is a plot against her. In fact, I seem to recall every mage Meredith lay charges against ending up doing something that proved her right all along.

Believing a monster sleeps under your bed and doing everything in your power to make that monster does NOT prove you right. It makes you an abhorrent person.

I am not going to say that Meredith also didn't contribute somewhat to the aggravation of the situation  or that a search would have gone without some bumps, but there are good reasons to search the Circle because, virtually, every blood mage in Act 3 came from it. If Orsino had nothing to hide, then he should have just let the Templars do their jobs.

*buzzer noise*

Not so. The Bloodragers are a gang of apostates that have many... well... blood mages in their group. And they run all throughout Hightown while the Templars, who are stationed there, do literally nothing about the situation. There are only TWO circle blood mages in Act 3: Huon and Grace. The others were, IIRC, using regular magic.

He had plenty of opportunities. He yelled at Anders, pleaded with Hawke; he could have, at any point, offered Meredith to search the Circle.

And Meredith could've demonstrated some common sense and told Orsino that she now had full authority to search the Circle.

But he didn't; not until he had been there first. Imagine if a policeman catchs a suspect in the streets and claims to want to search his home for evidence. The suspect staunchly argues he doesn't have the right to do that but, after he had been to his home, he suddenly becomes very cooperative. Sounds suspicious, doesn't it?

Depends on the context of the situation.

And I could just as easily say that when Meredith leaves, she's going to plant evidence there.

At that point in time, it's feasible. Later on not so much after what the game does, but at the time yes.

Also, if Hawke sides with the Templars, it's Orsino who takes the initiative to start a fight and order his mages to stall the Champion and the Knight Commander. Another opportunity he could have used to offer Meredith the option to search the Circle if that is what he intended all along.

I still don't see why I should condemn Orsino for all of this when the woman who had full authority at that point and didn't need Orsino to say such a thing could've easily gone "Well, ****, now I've got the power to search the Circle."

That's not really how demons work. For instance, in the Warden's Keep, the demons didn't seem to care that he castle was surrounded by fereldan forces, they attacked soldier and Grey Warden alike.

Uldred. He summoned a slew of Demons and the Pride Demon he summoned ended up forcefully possessing him because he couldn't control. He screamed and fought against it, but in the end lost.

It's possible that a demon or two could have come up with that strategy but for an entire army of them to have that very same plan? Very doubtful.

Since Demons operate on a power hierarchy, with the more powerful ones dominating the lesser ones, the more powerful demons could've told the lesser ones that this would be the plan.

And that wouldn't change the fact the mages knew how to summon demons in the first place which is still not something you learn in a couple of hours.

Arguable. We don't know the specifics of Demon deal making in regards to blood magic, so we can't say for certain one way or the other. I believe the situation forced them into it, you believe they were long time blood mages now exposed by the circumstances.

True.

As well as two other Pride Demons in the Gallows that summon a host of Shades, some Rage Demons outside the chamber where Orsino is fought that summon Shades and bring forth Abominations (as nonsensical as that was though), and the Desire Demon that enthralled Mages and Templars alike.

Plus throughout Lowtown, there was a Desire Demon commanding Abominations.

Very few Mages actually summoned Demons in the pro-Templar side of things.

A quick google search tells me eidetic memory is entirely fictional.
And even if it wasn't, eidetic memory; despite him showing no other evidence of it; is somehow more likely than "studying"?

I've always believed he's read up on certain things regarding blood magic, but has never once practiced it. And I don't see how a person could even safely practice making a Harvester, so remembering the ritual in total form is what I believe.

Why would a man who's about to off himself and is fessing up to a whole bunch of **** lie about having never practiced blood magic up until that point? He has nothing left to lose and nothing to gain.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Malcolm was not a blood mage, he used blood magic once to my knowledge, so he could get his family out of Kirkwall. He definitely made sure to teach his children not to use it.

Using it once is enough to make you a Blood Mage.

Wouldn't that make every templar who uses a phylactery a blood mage as well?

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Malcolm was not a blood mage, he used blood magic once to my knowledge, so he could get his family out of Kirkwall. He definitely made sure to teach his children not to use it.

Using it once is enough to make you a Blood Mage.

Wouldn't that make every templar who uses a phylactery a blood mage as well?

It falls into Scying like other magical abilities.

Its a gray area, Unlike blood magic however it can be done with out demonic influence.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Anders attacked him with spell only visible effect was that whats i said so it might be as i said attempt to provoke demon (if that was abomnation) to attack him well was he idiot well thats up to you but he said after spell that if that was demon he would attack.

That's true of every demon we've seen. We can't be sure that that's true of every demon, though. We haven't even seen every single type, and it's entirely possible that even some Pride or Desire demons are smart enough to try to brazen that out.

Master Warder Z wrote...

It falls into Scying like other magical abilities.

Its a gray area, Unlike blood magic however it can be done with out demonic influence.

We have from Gaider that it is technically blood magic, and that blood magic isn't inherently evil. (Though whether that means it doesn't require demons or he doesn't view using them as evil is open to question, I guess). At any rate, we also have from the DA2 fluff that blood magic doesn't draw from demons, instead drawing its power from the physical world. (Ie it draws energy someone was using to move oxygen around.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 décembre 2013 - 12:56 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Malcolm was not a blood mage, he used blood magic once to my knowledge, so he could get his family out of Kirkwall. He definitely made sure to teach his children not to use it.

Using it once is enough to make you a Blood Mage.

Wouldn't that make every templar who uses a phylactery a blood mage as well?

I think that might be having a loyal mage cast a spell through the phylactery. We have not actually seen any templars use them for anything but locating rogue mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Anders attacked him with spell only visible effect was that whats i said so it might be as i said attempt to provoke demon (if that was abomnation) to attack him well was he idiot well thats up to you but he said after spell that if that was demon he would attack.

That's true of every demon we've seen. We can't be sure that that's true of every demon, though. We haven't even seen every single type, and it's entirely possible that even some Pride or Desire demons are smart enough to try to brazen that out.

Master Warder Z wrote...

It falls into Scying like other magical abilities.

Its a gray area, Unlike blood magic however it can be done with out demonic influence.

We have from Gaider that it is technically blood magic, and that blood magic isn't inherently evil. (Though whether that means it doesn't require demons or he doesn't view using them as evil is open to question, I guess). At any rate, we also have from the DA2 fluff that blood magic doesn't draw from demons, instead drawing its power from the physical world. (Ie it draws energy someone was using to move oxygen around.)

It doesn't draw from their power or it isn't taught by them? There is an innate diffrence in my eyes personally; And considering according to the ravings of that idiotic blood mage in darktown it may have very well have been visited upon humanity by Demons.

Although that would conflict with the Old Gods gifting it to the Imperium in a historical context but that said whom is to say ultimately what is what?

So i would agrue that what Templars and other mages do wouldn't fall into proscribed blood magic which is gained by looking a demon in the eye and accepting a deal.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Master Warder Z wrote...

It doesn't draw from their power or it isn't taught by them? There is an innate diffrence in my eyes personally; And considering according to the ravings of that idiotic blood mage in darktown it may have very well have been visited upon humanity by Demons.

No, it is clearly taught by demons. Avernus implies that it's originally their creation, too, as an explanation for why they're able to block most of what he can do with it.

Although that would conflict with the Old Gods gifting it to the Imperium in a historical context but that said whom is to say ultimately what is what?

So i would agrue that what Templars and other mages do wouldn't fall into proscribed blood magic which is gained by looking a demon in the eye and accepting a deal.

It can also be granted by books, apparently. I'm not talking about the spec book in Awakenings, since those giving Templar or Reaver powers makes no sense in the greater setting. What I mean is that Irving removed some books on blood magic from the library, presumably to prevent mages from learning of them.

If this isn't enough, it gets better: it then transpires that Jowan, who I honestly cannot see gathering the combination of courage and stupidity necessary to do what you describe, somehow learned blood magic while in an environment designed to stop this by a government that has no search-and-seizure laws. Now, I can see Jowan perusing a book without being obvious enough about it to get a summary execution (though even this is a stretch.) But summoning a demon? No. And that's not even to cover the fact that if you need to summon a demon to learn blood magic, Uldred's small army of blood mages couldn't have happened. I understand that Anders says you need to directly deal with a demon for Blood Magic, but there's no part of the plot that takes place in Kinloch Hold and makes sense in that context.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Far all we know, the books specify that you most contact demons first, and then the books proceed to detail different blood magic spells. So far all we know is that demons are intricately connected to blood magic.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Far all we know, the books specify that you most contact demons first, and then the books proceed to detail different blood magic spells. So far all we know is that demons are intricately connected to blood magic.

Well, Jowan didn't seem like the type to contact a demon while in the Circle and survive. I don't even know if one could successfully contact a demon as an apprentice without getting caught. Now, after he left the Circle, he probably did at least learn from a demon, cause that blood ritual was some very heavy stuff.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Malcolm was not a blood mage, he used blood magic once to my knowledge, so he could get his family out of Kirkwall. He definitely made sure to teach his children not to use it.

Using it once is enough to make you a Blood Mage.

Wouldn't that make every templar who uses a phylactery a blood mage as well?

I think that might be having a loyal mage cast a spell through the phylactery. We have not actually seen any templars use them for anything but locating rogue mages.

It was more a commentary that blood magic as the Chantry defines it, is anything that has to do with the use of blood in any form of magic. The phylactery most certainly qualifies, and the creation of use of it, even in tracking mages, falls under the very definition of blood magic.

Let me ask this, and this is open to everyone, how is it possible that a templar can use a phylactery to track the mage? Truly possible? Are the templars tapping into some sort of mixture and it guides them? Do they use lyrium enhanced/associated abilities unique to templars?

Phylacteries aren't like a GPS where you punch in a few buttons and it gives you directions. As far as I can tell, it's blood in a bottle.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Far all we know, the books specify that you most contact demons first, and then the books proceed to detail different blood magic spells. So far all we know is that demons are intricately connected to blood magic.

Well, Jowan didn't seem like the type to contact a demon while in the Circle and survive. I don't even know if one could successfully contact a demon as an apprentice without getting caught. Now, after he left the Circle, he probably did at least learn from a demon, cause that blood ritual was some very heavy stuff.

Or it may have been in the books Irving took away. Uldred and his rebels could use mind dominating affects, and that's like the last tier of blood magic, controlling others.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Malcolm was not a blood mage, he used blood magic once to my knowledge, so he could get his family out of Kirkwall. He definitely made sure to teach his children not to use it.

Using it once is enough to make you a Blood Mage.

Wouldn't that make every templar who uses a phylactery a blood mage as well?

I think that might be having a loyal mage cast a spell through the phylactery. We have not actually seen any templars use them for anything but locating rogue mages.

It was more a commentary that blood magic as the Chantry defines it, is anything that has to do with the use of blood in any form of magic. The phylactery most certainly qualifies, and the creation of use of it, even in tracking mages, falls under the very definition of blood magic.

Let me ask this, and this is open to everyone, how is it possible that a templar can use a phylactery to track the mage? Truly possible? Are the templars tapping into some sort of mixture and it guides them? Do they use lyrium enhanced/associated abilities unique to templars?

Phylacteries aren't like a GPS where you punch in a few buttons and it gives you directions. As far as I can tell, it's blood in a bottle.

When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking function was operated by her lyrium powers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

the phylacteries literally glow and grow warmer the closer they are to their mage. So in the case of using them, you just pick them up and start walking basically. You don't need any certain abilities to use that function of the phylacteries. Wether you need certain skils to cast the remote spell stored within the phylactery is another question.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Far all we know, the books specify that you most contact demons first, and then the books proceed to detail different blood magic spells. So far all we know is that demons are intricately connected to blood magic.

Well, Jowan didn't seem like the type to contact a demon while in the Circle and survive. I don't even know if one could successfully contact a demon as an apprentice without getting caught. Now, after he left the Circle, he probably did at least learn from a demon, cause that blood ritual was some very heavy stuff.

Or it may have been in the books Irving took away. Uldred and his rebels could use mind dominating affects, and that's like the last tier of blood magic, controlling others.

Uldred is a senior enchanter versus Jowan, a Circle apprentice who didn't even pass his Harrowing. And wasn't Uldred possessed by that point anyways?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

the phylacteries literally glow and grow warmer the closer they are to their mage. So in the case of using them, you just pick them up and start walking basically. You don't need any certain abilities to use that function of the phylacteries. Wether you need certain skils to cast the remote spell stored within the phylactery is another question.

Evangeline mentioned that she had to will some power into the bottle though.

"Concentrating, she channeled a bit of power into it. The crimson glow of the blood pulsated and then slowly intensified."

Modifié par eluvianix, 11 décembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[dragonflight288]

When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.

But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.

If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.

That's how I see it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Far all we know, the books specify that you most contact demons first, and then the books proceed to detail different blood magic spells. So far all we know is that demons are intricately connected to blood magic.

Well, Jowan didn't seem like the type to contact a demon while in the Circle and survive. I don't even know if one could successfully contact a demon as an apprentice without getting caught. Now, after he left the Circle, he probably did at least learn from a demon, cause that blood ritual was some very heavy stuff.

Or it may have been in the books Irving took away. Uldred and his rebels could use mind dominating affects, and that's like the last tier of blood magic, controlling others.

Mind control does however require the blood mage to contact a demon. That much is not left up for debate with the Scrolls of Banastor. The question some pose, is wether or not the rest of blood magic needs demon interaction.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Far all we know, the books specify that you most contact demons first, and then the books proceed to detail different blood magic spells. So far all we know is that demons are intricately connected to blood magic.

Well, Jowan didn't seem like the type to contact a demon while in the Circle and survive. I don't even know if one could successfully contact a demon as an apprentice without getting caught. Now, after he left the Circle, he probably did at least learn from a demon, cause that blood ritual was some very heavy stuff.

Or it may have been in the books Irving took away. Uldred and his rebels could use mind dominating affects, and that's like the last tier of blood magic, controlling others.

Uldred is a senior enchanter versus Jowan, a Circle apprentice who didn't even pass his Harrowing. And wasn't Uldred possessed by that point anyways?

Yes, but Uldred had to teach plenty of students blood magic for his rebellion, and Cullen specifically states that blood mages have been crawling into his head. That could've simply been the demon possessing Uldred, but it could've also been other blood mages who weren't possessed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.

But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.

If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.

That's how I see it.

A phylactery is a magical item. A Templar using it is no more a blood mage, than a person using an enchanted sword is a mage.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.

But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.

If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.

That's how I see it.

A phylactery is a magical item. A Templar using it is no more a blood mage, than a person using an enchanted sword is a mage.

Not if the phylactery only works if they have to will it to work. A sword is a sword no matter who wields it.