Hang on now. The difference is that Templars still require lyrium to gain their abilities. Also, and maybe the blood magic aspect comes from a mage doing something to the phylactery itself so that it might become susceptible to a templars power, hence a Templar's ability to track the owner of the blood.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A phylactery is a magical item. A Templar using it is no more a blood mage, than a person using an enchanted sword is a mage.dragonflight288 wrote...
When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.
But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.
If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.
That's how I see it.
Not if the phylactery only works if they have to will it to work. A sword is a sword no matter who wields it.
The Circle system as a totalitarian police state
Débuté par
Ieldra
, déc. 03 2013 10:20
#1526
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:02
Hellion Rex
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Retour en haut
#1527
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:05
EmperorSahlertz
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Obviousy the enchanted flames on a blade does not burn all the time, so a warrior also has to activate his weapon somehow.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A phylactery is a magical item. A Templar using it is no more a blood mage, than a person using an enchanted sword is a mage.dragonflight288 wrote...
When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.
But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.
If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.
That's how I see it.
Not if the phylactery only works if they have to will it to work. A sword is a sword no matter who wields it.
#1528
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:06
dragonflight288
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eluvianix wrote...
Hang on now. The difference is that Templars still require lyrium to gain their abilities. Also, and maybe the blood magic aspect comes from a mage doing something to the phylactery itself so that it might become susceptible to a templars power, hence a Templar's ability to track the owner of the blood.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A phylactery is a magical item. A Templar using it is no more a blood mage, than a person using an enchanted sword is a mage.dragonflight288 wrote...
When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.
But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.
If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.
That's how I see it.
Not if the phylactery only works if they have to will it to work. A sword is a sword no matter who wields it.
That still does nothing to change the Chantry's, and the world at large's definition of what blood magic is. "Blood used in empowering or enhancing another spell, or blood/pain/death used as the source of power for the spell."
The phylactery may or may not require a mage to help make, but by using blood it becomes blood magic. And if the templars capacity to use phylacteries are dependent on their usage of lyrium, and lyrium is nothing more than magic emobodied as a raw mineral, the templars are using magic themselves, not naturally born magic or inherent magic, but magic none-the-less, and by using magic with the blood in the phylactery, the templars are in fact, using blood magic.
#1529
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:07
dragonflight288
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Obviousy the enchanted flames on a blade does not burn all the time, so a warrior also has to activate his weapon somehow.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A phylactery is a magical item. A Templar using it is no more a blood mage, than a person using an enchanted sword is a mage.dragonflight288 wrote...
When Evangeline was tracking Rhys, she mentions that she "willed
some power" into the bottle, suggesting that at least the tracking
function was operated by her lyrium powers.
But that phrase, "will some power" strikes me as odd. I don't doubt she's telling the truth, and this is probably me reading too much into it, but it's almost exactly the description of the source of power in the Fade, will, that is. Everything in the Fade is nothing more than the expression of a thought, and your will makes it reality. Outside the Fade, only mages are truly capable of willing things into being, or more accurately, willing, studying, and practicing using various forms of magic from shape-shifting to summoning fire from nothing and so on.
If it's a lyrium ability, wouldn't that mean only templars and mages can use phylacteries? And if so, wouldn't that make it magic in and of itself? And if it's magic, that would mean that any templar using a phylactery, even just to track a mage, is inherently using blood magic themselves by the Chantry's definition of blood magic.
That's how I see it.
Not if the phylactery only works if they have to will it to work. A sword is a sword no matter who wields it.
And yet we have no examples of a sword extinguishing itself in the lore. Enchantment is nothing more than folding lyrium runes into weapons and armor, and those lyrium runes give the weapon magical capacity, such as burning, as it were. Unless the lyrium rune was removed from the sword, there is nothing that suggests the flame merely extinguishes itself.
#1530
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:08
EmperorSahlertz
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That still doesn't make them blood mages...
#1531
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:09
dragonflight288
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That still doesn't make them blood mages...
Use of blood and magic is by the very definition a blood mage. Templars aren't mages so naturally they can't be blood mages, but that doesn't mean they aren't using blood magic by using the phylacteries.
#1532
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:09
Hellion Rex
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Nope. But they are still making use of a type of magic powered by blood.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That still doesn't make them blood mages...
#1533
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:10
EmperorSahlertz
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Yes, and obviously this flame does not burn hot all the time. Otherwise it would burn through the scabbard and burn the wielder. Some sort of activation must tehrefore be required.dragonflight288 wrote...
And yet we have no examples of a sword extinguishing itself in the lore. Enchantment is nothing more than folding lyrium runes into weapons and armor, and those lyrium runes give the weapon magical capacity, such as burning, as it were. Unless the lyrium rune was removed from the sword, there is nothing that suggests the flame merely extinguishes itself.
#1534
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:10
Hellion Rex
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Oh, I get it.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That still doesn't make them blood mages...
Use of blood and magic is by the very definition a blood mage. Templars aren't mages so naturally they can't be blood mages, but that doesn't mean they aren't using blood magic by using the phylacteries.
#1535
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:11
EmperorSahlertz
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So what? The Templars have never denied that they view the phylacteries as blood magic (nevermind the larger discussion about the specifics). They are fully aware of this, however lacking a viable alternative, they see it as a necessary evil.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That still doesn't make them blood mages...
Use of blood and magic is by the very definition a blood mage. Templars aren't mages so naturally they can't be blood mages, but that doesn't mean they aren't using blood magic by using the phylacteries.
#1536
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:12
Hellion Rex
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Yeah. Why are we debating this exactly. This debate somehow got a little circular.
#1537
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:14
Hellion Rex
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The original point was how spells are performed remotely through a phylactery onto another mage.
#1538
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:14
dragonflight288
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes, and obviously this flame does not burn hot all the time. Otherwise it would burn through the scabbard and burn the wielder. Some sort of activation must tehrefore be required.dragonflight288 wrote...
And yet we have no examples of a sword extinguishing itself in the lore. Enchantment is nothing more than folding lyrium runes into weapons and armor, and those lyrium runes give the weapon magical capacity, such as burning, as it were. Unless the lyrium rune was removed from the sword, there is nothing that suggests the flame merely extinguishes itself.
Point it out to me where that happens in the lore and I'll adit I'm wrong. Comics, books, or a codex entry. (it only happens in the games when we remove the rune so that's a game-play mechanic that doesn't qualify).
#1539
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:15
dragonflight288
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eluvianix wrote...
Yeah. Why are we debating this exactly. This debate somehow got a little circular.
I think it got started when I responded to Emperor's statement when he said "using blood magic just once makes you a blood mage" and I responded with a cheeky "if templars use phylacteries, they are using blood magic, so does that make them blood mages too?" sort of deal.
I think that's how we got started.
#1540
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:18
EmperorSahlertz
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You strap a burning swod to your back in the games... If that isn't evidence that the flame isn't hot, I don't know what is. And if you want another example, it would be in the gameplay demo of DA:I where the sword only appears AFTER the weapon has been drawn.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes, and obviously this flame does not burn hot all the time. Otherwise it would burn through the scabbard and burn the wielder. Some sort of activation must tehrefore be required.dragonflight288 wrote...
And yet we have no examples of a sword extinguishing itself in the lore. Enchantment is nothing more than folding lyrium runes into weapons and armor, and those lyrium runes give the weapon magical capacity, such as burning, as it were. Unless the lyrium rune was removed from the sword, there is nothing that suggests the flame merely extinguishes itself.
Point it out to me where that happens in the lore and I'll adit I'm wrong. Comics, books, or a codex entry. (it only happens in the games when we remove the rune so that's a game-play mechanic that doesn't qualify).
#1541
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:19
EmperorSahlertz
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And there is an obvious difference between casting blood magic, and using a magical item crafted through blood magic (Even though phylacteries aren't crafted through blood magic, and it is the mere inclusion of blood in the process that labels it as such).dragonflight288 wrote...
eluvianix wrote...
Yeah. Why are we debating this exactly. This debate somehow got a little circular.
I think it got started when I responded to Emperor's statement when he said "using blood magic just once makes you a blood mage" and I responded with a cheeky "if templars use phylacteries, they are using blood magic, so does that make them blood mages too?" sort of deal.
I think that's how we got started.
#1542
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:20
dragonflight288
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So what? The Templars have never denied that they view the phylacteries as blood magic (nevermind the larger discussion about the specifics). They are fully aware of this, however lacking a viable alternative, they see it as a necessary evil.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That still doesn't make them blood mages...
Use of blood and magic is by the very definition a blood mage. Templars aren't mages so naturally they can't be blood mages, but that doesn't mean they aren't using blood magic by using the phylacteries.
They may not deny their use of blood magic in the phylacteries, but they most certainly have done nothing to try and help improve blood magic defense since the magister Adralla developed the Litany, and I think that they, or at least Chantry/Templar/Seeker leaders at least subconsciously acknowledge the phylactery gives them a leash, or a method of control over the mages as a whole and have no motivation to find alternatives as doing so would take away their power/control over mages.
And before this conversation inevitably turns to Tevinter, I'm just as skeptical of Black Chantry and the Magisters...heck, I'm just skeptical of anyone who has a great deal of power for long periods of time.
#1543
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:20
Hellion Rex
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Ok, and who remotely casts spells on the rogue mage through the phylactery? The templar?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is an obvious difference between casting blood magic, and using a magical item crafted through blood magic (Even though phylacteries aren't crafted through blood magic, and it is the mere inclusion of blood in the process that labels it as such).dragonflight288 wrote...
eluvianix wrote...
Yeah. Why are we debating this exactly. This debate somehow got a little circular.
I think it got started when I responded to Emperor's statement when he said "using blood magic just once makes you a blood mage" and I responded with a cheeky "if templars use phylacteries, they are using blood magic, so does that make them blood mages too?" sort of deal.
I think that's how we got started.
#1544
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:21
dragonflight288
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You strap a burning swod to your back in the games... If that isn't evidence that the flame isn't hot, I don't know what is. And if you want another example, it would be in the gameplay demo of DA:I where the sword only appears AFTER the weapon has been drawn.dragonflight288 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes, and obviously this flame does not burn hot all the time. Otherwise it would burn through the scabbard and burn the wielder. Some sort of activation must tehrefore be required.dragonflight288 wrote...
And yet we have no examples of a sword extinguishing itself in the lore. Enchantment is nothing more than folding lyrium runes into weapons and armor, and those lyrium runes give the weapon magical capacity, such as burning, as it were. Unless the lyrium rune was removed from the sword, there is nothing that suggests the flame merely extinguishes itself.
Point it out to me where that happens in the lore and I'll adit I'm wrong. Comics, books, or a codex entry. (it only happens in the games when we remove the rune so that's a game-play mechanic that doesn't qualify).
Gameplay mechanic until proven otherwise.
#1545
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:21
Hellion Rex
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No man. Come to the dark side. Join your maleficar brethren.dragonflight288 wrote...
And before this conversation inevitably turns to Tevinter, I'm just as skeptical of Black Chantry and the Magisters...heck, I'm just skeptical of anyone who has a great deal of power for long periods of time.
#1546
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:21
dragonflight288
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eluvianix wrote...
Ok, and who remotely casts spells on the rogue mage through the phylactery? The templar?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is an obvious difference between casting blood magic, and using a magical item crafted through blood magic (Even though phylacteries aren't crafted through blood magic, and it is the mere inclusion of blood in the process that labels it as such).dragonflight288 wrote...
eluvianix wrote...
Yeah. Why are we debating this exactly. This debate somehow got a little circular.
I think it got started when I responded to Emperor's statement when he said "using blood magic just once makes you a blood mage" and I responded with a cheeky "if templars use phylacteries, they are using blood magic, so does that make them blood mages too?" sort of deal.
I think that's how we got started.
I don't think this has ever been made really clear.
#1547
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:22
dragonflight288
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eluvianix wrote...
No man. Come to the dark side. Join your maleficar brethren.dragonflight288 wrote...
And before this conversation inevitably turns to Tevinter, I'm just as skeptical of Black Chantry and the Magisters...heck, I'm just skeptical of anyone who has a great deal of power for long periods of time.
I'm happy being an apostate living life and proving the chantry is wrong about mages inevitably turning to blood magic for the sake of turning to blood magic or demons. Nah, I'd rather learn how to shape-shift and practice flying. Maybe as a falcon so I can do super fast dives.
#1548
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:23
Hellion Rex
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Lord help us if the templar is the one who can do it. There are times when the lore boundaries begin to blur, and my head just starts to hurt.dragonflight288 wrote...
eluvianix wrote...
Ok, and who remotely casts spells on the rogue mage through the phylactery? The templar?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is an obvious difference between casting blood magic, and using a magical item crafted through blood magic (Even though phylacteries aren't crafted through blood magic, and it is the mere inclusion of blood in the process that labels it as such).dragonflight288 wrote...
eluvianix wrote...
Yeah. Why are we debating this exactly. This debate somehow got a little circular.
I think it got started when I responded to Emperor's statement when he said "using blood magic just once makes you a blood mage" and I responded with a cheeky "if templars use phylacteries, they are using blood magic, so does that make them blood mages too?" sort of deal.
I think that's how we got started.
I don't think this has ever been made really clear.
#1549
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:24
Hellion Rex
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Bah, shape shifting is nothing next to the power of blood.dragonflight288 wrote...
eluvianix wrote...
No man. Come to the dark side. Join your maleficar brethren.dragonflight288 wrote...
And before this conversation inevitably turns to Tevinter, I'm just as skeptical of Black Chantry and the Magisters...heck, I'm just skeptical of anyone who has a great deal of power for long periods of time.
I'm happy being an apostate living life and proving the chantry is wrong about mages inevitably turning to blood magic for the sake of turning to blood magic or demons. Nah, I'd rather learn how to shape-shift and practice flying. Maybe as a falcon so I can do super fast dives.
#1550
Posté 11 décembre 2013 - 07:24
EmperorSahlertz
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Blood is power in Thedas. I am not about to presume how magic works. But it isn't beyond comprehension that lyrium mixed with a bit of blood and the proper enchantments allow you to exercise a form of power over the owner of the blood.eluvianix wrote...
Ok, and who remotely casts spells on the rogue mage through the phylactery? The templar?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And there is an obvious difference between casting blood magic, and using a magical item crafted through blood magic (Even though phylacteries aren't crafted through blood magic, and it is the mere inclusion of blood in the process that labels it as such).
