1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Just use fist of the maker. It solves everything.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Making a cut on your hand generates pain. Not as much as cutting a people's arm, or extracting his heart, but it's still pain. And Jowan was able to surprised Gregoir with it.
I'm not a great fan of blood magic, but it can be used without hurting others, or even without hurting yourself too much.

I'd really like to have a clarification on the newly-evilized blood magic in WoT I. The way it's presented in-game is different, and two games have enough weight to question the new philosophy's authenticity until explicity confirmed. Anyway, you'd be surprised by how much pain you can generate with a small wound of little otherwise consequence. Self-mutilation is not required. Also, what about clubbing someone? With no blood drawn? I don't think they really thought this through at the DA team.

Bolded 1. Mind clarifying for me on how Blood magic is newly "evilized" in the World of Thedas? I do not have the book, so I would appreciate this info.

Bolded 2. Or perhaps we might be overthinking this.

Ad (1): WoT I, sidebar on page 199:
"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes"
"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits".

Ad (2):
It's not overthinking if you point out an obvious consequence.

1) Since Blood Magic was NEVER previously detailed in how it worked, what is stated in WoT is not an "evilisation" of Blood Magic, it is an elaboration. It of course rubs the blood mage apologists the wrong way, since it just invalidated their stance..
2) Pain and death is a factor, and if you think that "clubbing" someone hard enough to generate enough pain, does not cause bleeding, then you havn't experienced a real clubbing before. Bones break.

Either way, we now know that blood needs to flow for Blood Magic to work, and the amount of pain caused which caused the blood to flow plays a factor. None of this contradicts ANYTHING previously established in lore.

[Senya]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Making a cut on your hand generates pain. Not as much as cutting a people's arm, or extracting his heart, but it's still pain. And Jowan was able to surprised Gregoir with it.
I'm not a great fan of blood magic, but it can be used without hurting others, or even without hurting yourself too much.

I'd really like to have a clarification on the newly-evilized blood magic in WoT I. The way it's presented in-game is different, and two games have enough weight to question the new philosophy's authenticity until explicity confirmed. Anyway, you'd be surprised by how much pain you can generate with a small wound of little otherwise consequence. Self-mutilation is not required. Also, what about clubbing someone? With no blood drawn? I don't think they really thought this through at the DA team.

Bolded 1. Mind clarifying for me on how Blood magic is newly "evilized" in the World of Thedas? I do not have the book, so I would appreciate this info.

Bolded 2. Or perhaps we might be overthinking this.

Ad (1): WoT I, sidebar on page 199:
"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes"
"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits".

Ad (2):
It's not overthinking if you point out an obvious consequence.

1) Since Blood Magic was NEVER previously detailed in how it worked, what is stated in WoT is not an "evilisation" of Blood Magic, it is an elaboration. It of course rubs the blood mage apologists the wrong way, since it just invalidated their stance..
2) Pain and death is a factor, and if you think that "clubbing" someone hard enough to generate enough pain, does not cause bleeding, then you havn't experienced a real clubbing before. Bones break.

Either way, we now know that blood needs to flow for Blood Magic to work, and the amount of pain caused which caused the blood to flow plays a factor. None of this contradicts ANYTHING previously established in lore.

Not to mention that Blood Magic has been portrayed badly in just about every instance it occurs:

Jowan: It becomes a tool for him to make even more stupid mistakes and unleash him upon Thedas.

Merrill: It entangles her with a demon.

Avernus: Uses it to summon demons who prompty overruns Soldier's Keep and conducts heinious experiments.

Ancient Tevinter Magisters: Ignoring theology, their attempt to make themselves gods through entering the Fade still created the Blight.

Random Kirkwall Blood Mages: They're insane.

[Ieldra]

I contest Jowan. He did nothing wrong with blood magic, and nothing bad that happened to him was the result of blood magic as such rather than others' belief that it was bad.
I contest Merrill. We don't know what would've happened had Marethari not intervened, but the disaster with the Dalish is more her fault than Merrill's. Merrill knew what she was about to do and that it was dangerous, that's why she asked Hawke to kill her if necessary. I can see no bad outcome here she is responsible for.
I contest the magisters. Their attempt to reach the Golden City had nothing to do with blood magic as such. Blood magic was used to raise the necessary power, but it would've been possible with lyrium as well, they just didn't have enough. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[The Elder King]

Regardless of who is more at fault between Marethari and Merrill, the former was wrong already in deciding to stay near Kirkwall. Her role is to guide her clan, and staying in the same place for years (expecially considering the presence of the templars) is a mistake. As much as she loved Merill, she's responsible of all the people in the clan, and she shouldn't have put the life of one above all the test of them.

About the magister, blood magic lead to the sacrifices of thousands of people. This is entirely caused by the use of blood magic.
Edit: by the way, they didn't use ally the lyrium. They used 1/3 or 2/3 of the reserves they had.

Modifié par hhh89, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Regardless of who is more at fault between Marethari and Merrill, the former was wrong already in deciding to stay near Kirkwall. Her role is to guide her clan, and staying in the same place for years (expecially considering the presence of the templars) is a mistake. As much as she loved Merill, she's responsible of all the people in the clan, and she shouldn't have put the life of one above all the test of them.

But she didn't stay necessarily near Kirkwall because of Merrill though. That was just where they happened to be encamped.

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Regardless of who is more at fault between Marethari and Merrill, the former was wrong already in deciding to stay near Kirkwall. Her role is to guide her clan, and staying in the same place for years (expecially considering the presence of the templars) is a mistake. As much as she loved Merill, she's responsible of all the people in the clan, and she shouldn't have put the life of one above all the test of them.

But she didn't stay necessarily near Kirkwall because of Merrill though. That was just where they happened to be encamped.

Dalish don't remain in the same place for years, expecially when they are near templars. I do think that the reason why she stayed was to remain close to Merrill, though yes, it isn't stated in the game. It's just how I see it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I contest Jowan. He did nothing wrong with blood magic, and nothing bad that happened to him was the result of blood magic as such rather than others' belief that it was bad.
I contest Merrill. We don't know what would've happened had Marethari not intervened, but the disaster with the Dalish is more her fault than Merrill's. Merrill knew what she was about to do and that it was dangerous, that's why she asked Hawke to kill her if necessary. I can see no bad outcome here she is responsible for.
I contest the magisters. Their attempt to reach the Golden City had nothing to do with blood magic as such. Blood magic was used to raise the necessary power, but it would've been possible with lyrium as well, they just didn't have enough. 

1. if you can't see how merrill listening to the demon and summoning it into the material plane in the first place, thus making marethari have to take the meassure of making herself its victim before merrill because, why would you expect someone who was concerned for their younger surrogate child like figure not to try and protect them, makes her responsible for anything bad that happened. Then you're not paying attention to what's going on in the first place. Just because she was "prepared" to give up her body to the demon doesn't mean she's any less irresponsible in her actions of reckless endangerment to others through her talents she got from dealin with demons in the first place. She had a debt to the demon, and marethari had to pay the price to protect her.

2. How can you not blame the magisters from using countless living beings as sacrifices to fuel their power for this insanity of a plan that they had no clue what would happen? They didn't want to use lyrium because they wanted a shortcut and didn't value human life, not because there wasn't enough of it around. Are you telling me they couldn't work things out with the dwarves to buy enough lyrium over time to have enough? Think about how much lives it must have taken then, in place of the lyrium. A neighboorhood worth of slaves? A towns worth? A cities worth? How many died for their own hubris and curiosity, and they aren't responsible for any of the blood on their hands from their deeds?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:15 .

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

1. if you can't see how merrill listening to the demon and summoning it into the material plane in the first place, thus making marethari have to take the meassure of making herself its victim before merrill because, why would you expect someone who was concerned for their younger surrogate child like figure not to try and protect them, makes her responsible for anything bad that happened. Then you're not paying attention to what's going on in the first place. Just because she was "prepared" to give up her body to the demon doesn't mean she's any less irresponsible in her actions of reckless endangerment to others through her talents she got from dealin with demons in the first place. She had a debt to the demon, and marethari had to pay the price to protect her.

Merrill never planned on summoning it, or breaking its prison. Audacity was already locked away within the statue on Sundermount. She was just listening to it, never planning on freeing it.

Modifié par eluvianix, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:18 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Never planning on freeing it, but every action she was doing was eroding it's prison and giving it more and more power. Even if she hadn't intended for it, what happened happened because of her.

Jowan poisoned arl eamon, he might not have thought or intended that by doing so, connor would make a deal with a demon and unleash a hell onto the village. Isolde didn't mean for her son to be open to such actions when she hide him from the circle, but it was still the catalyst that cause the events to unfold as well.

Saying "I didn't mean to" only really absolves you of blame when what happened because of them wasn't that bad. When it's really bad, that excuse ceases to hold power.

[The Elder King]

I should point out that Ieldra stated that Jowan's use of blood magic didn't lead to anything wrong, not that Jowan's action in general were good.

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Never planning on freeing it, but every action she was doing was eroding it's prison and giving it more and more power. Even if she hadn't intended for it, what happened happened because of her.

Jowan poisoned arl eamon, he might not have thought or intended that by doing so, connor would make a deal with a demon and unleash a hell onto the village. Isolde didn't mean for her son to be open to such actions when she hide him from the circle, but it was still the catalyst that cause the events to unfold as well.

Saying "I didn't mean to" only really absolves you of blame when what happened because of them wasn't that bad. When it's really bad, that excuse ceases to hold power.

Ok, for Merrill, we have no proof that her listening to it eroded its prison or gave it power, at all.

As for Jowan, Ieldra's original point was that his using blood magic had no effect on his actions. He didn't use blood magic to endanger Eamon at all.

Edit: Dammit, 'd by hhh89.

Modifié par eluvianix, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:29 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I was responding more to the notion that if someone didn't intend for bad things to happen, it absolves them of blame for said bad actions.

I can't really fault Ieldras point about jowan so I didn't touch it.

[The Elder King]

@Darh Bretorian: I understand. I misunderstood your point.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

1) Since Blood Magic was NEVER previously detailed in how it worked, what is stated in WoT is not an "evilisation" of Blood Magic, it is an elaboration. It of course rubs the blood mage apologists the wrong way, since it just invalidated their stance..
2) Pain and death is a factor, and if you think that "clubbing" someone hard enough to generate enough pain, does not cause bleeding, then you havn't experienced a real clubbing before. Bones break.

Either way, we now know that blood needs to flow for Blood Magic to work, and the amount of pain caused which caused the blood to flow plays a factor. None of this contradicts ANYTHING previously established in lore.

Unless you literally need to work with a demon to gain it, or it slowly corrodes the good in your heart like dark magic does in most settings, (which would be a retcon considering Merril and Jowan, since the magic itself wasn't their problem) I don't think this really invalidates the basic argument that blood magic can be justified as long as the mage who uses it is vetted about as carefully as the military vets people who are handling classified info. (I understand it has been now set in stone that it really does make you more likely to be possessed, but that doesn't automatically make it a bad idea. It just makes it something best saved for Godzilla Threshold situations.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 décembre 2013 - 08:47 .

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Regardless of who is more at fault between Marethari and Merrill, the former was wrong already in deciding to stay near Kirkwall. Her role is to guide her clan, and staying in the same place for years (expecially considering the presence of the templars) is a mistake. As much as she loved Merill, she's responsible of all the people in the clan, and she shouldn't have put the life of one above all the test of them.

But she didn't stay necessarily near Kirkwall because of Merrill though. That was just where they happened to be encamped.

I thought it had something to do with all their Halla being dead.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well... Jowan's blood magic DID result in a demon being summoned and killing almost all of Redcliffe...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 décembre 2013 - 12:03 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Jowan's blood magic DID result in a demon being summoned and killing almost all of Redcliffe...

No. That was Connor's abilities. Jowan never taught him blood magic.

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Jowan's blood magic DID result in a demon being summoned and killing almost all of Redcliffe...

No. That was Connor's abilities. Jowan never taught him blood magic.

I think that Emperor is referring to the fact that Connor read one of Jowan's books to learn how to evocate the demon, if I remember right what happened.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 décembre 2013 - 12:07 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... Jowan's blood magic DID result in a demon being summoned and killing almost all of Redcliffe...

No. That was Connor's abilities. Jowan never taught him blood magic.

I think that Emperor is referring to the fact that Connor read one of Jowan's books to evocate the demon.

Wait, what? Since when was that a thing? It was his overwhelming desire to save his father that called to the demon, right, not reading Jowan's books?

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

Wait, what? Since when was that a thing? It was his overwhelming desire to save his father that called to the demon, right, not reading Jowan's books?

I'm going to check, since my memory about this part isn't exactly good. I'll let you know.

[The Elder King]

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.

[Silfren]

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.

FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 décembre 2013 - 12:28 .

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.

FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.

Oh well, whatever. Jowan indirectly was responsible.

[The Elder King]

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.

FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.

I know. I look there in the case it has the info I need. Otherwise I try to find videos.
Thanks for the info. I remember that there was a dialogue where this was said. Though I found a video where the Warden decides to kill Connor, and when the Warden met him uptairs Connor said that the demon came to him.