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The Circle system as a totalitarian police state


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#1651
Silfren

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eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.


FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.


Oh well, whatever. Jowan indirectly was responsible.


I'm surprised that's up for debate.  Of course he was responsible.  So was Loghain, and so was Isolde.  If the ADULTS involved hadn't screwed around, none of it ever would have happened.  Those three share far more of the blame than Connor himself ever did. 

Modifié par Silfren, 12 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .


#1652
The Elder King

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@Silfren: I agree on that.

#1653
Hellion Rex

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Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.


FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.


Oh well, whatever. Jowan indirectly was responsible.


I'm surprised that's up for debate.  Of course he was responsible.  So was Loghain, and so was Isolde.  If the ADULTS involved hadn't screwed around, none of it ever would have happened.  Those three share far more of the blame than Connor himself ever did. 

I was just referring to the books. I didn't remember that part. I thought Connor's desire to save his father called the demon, not that he had read Jowan's books.

#1654
Silfren

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hhh89 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.


FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.

I know. I look there in the case it has the info I need. Otherwise I try to find videos.
Thanks for the info. I remember that there was a dialogue where this was said. Though I found a video where the Warden decides to kill Connor, and when the Warden met him uptairs Connor said that the demon came to him. 


I think it probably did.  I never felt that Jowan's books were all that significant to this, really.  Just Connor playing around with magic at all probably attracted the demon, and from there his desperate yearning to save his father did the rest.

#1655
The Elder King

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Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I know. I look there in the case it has the info I need. Otherwise I try to find videos.
Thanks for the info. I remember that there was a dialogue where this was said. Though I found a video where the Warden decides to kill Connor, and when the Warden met him uptairs Connor said that the demon came to him. 


I think it probably did.  I never felt that Jowan's books were all that significant to this, really.  Just Connor playing around with magic at all probably attracted the demon, and from there his desperate yearning to save his father did the rest.

Yeah, I think it went that way.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 décembre 2013 - 12:41 .


#1656
Vandicus

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Steelcan wrote...

What if we turned the mages into something similar to the Jedi......

Ignore the crappy philosophy behind them, but instead look at their role as mediators, diplomats, and as a last resort warriors. They can get more independent from the Chantry, provide a valuable service to Thedas, and they can also learn to better protect themselves through learning, meditation, and so on.

Templars could be reduced to strictly rogue mage hunting and Harrowings for mages who want to live out of the Circles.


Might I point out that force-users(Sith simply being an exiled major off-shoot of Jedi) are literally responsible for every galactic war in Star Wars ever?

For example(as much as some people dislike the Yuzhon Vong portion of Star Wars as a whole its got a real swell example of this), the Yuzhon Vong invasion and following near-conquest of the galaxy was because a Yuzhon Vong learned the Force, and mind-controlled their society's leaders.

There's not that much to stop a powerful Jedi(or less powerful mage) with access to authority figures from deciding "Hey, it'd be really neat if I ruled everyone instead." then mind-controlling the heck out of them.

Regular access to authority figures in a Medieval setting is probably the last thing that should be allowed to mages.

#1657
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Vandicus wrote...

There's not that much to stop a powerful Jedi(or less powerful mage) with access to authority figures from deciding "Hey, it'd be really neat if I ruled everyone instead." then mind-controlling the heck out of them.

Regular access to authority figures in a Medieval setting is probably the last thing that should be allowed to mages.


The mage's own limits are probably a stumbling block, and Gregoir all but states Templars can catch this sort of thing at a glance. Then there's the Litany of Adralla, which I hope is available more widely than we've been given cause to think.

#1658
Vandicus

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There's not that much to stop a powerful Jedi(or less powerful mage) with access to authority figures from deciding "Hey, it'd be really neat if I ruled everyone instead." then mind-controlling the heck out of them.

Regular access to authority figures in a Medieval setting is probably the last thing that should be allowed to mages.


The mage's own limits are probably a stumbling block, and Gregoir all but states Templars can catch this sort of thing at a glance. Then there's the Litany of Adralla, which I hope is available more widely than we've been given cause to think.


As I understood it, mages specifically need to use blood magic to control people, which is all about violating a mage's normal limits.

"The Litany of Adralla[/b] disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late."

From the specific codex regarding it.

So the Litany as it stands really isn't an effective counter-measure.

What exactly does Gregoir say in regards to detecting mind-control? The reaction most people have to it when it is brought up, as well as demonic possession, seems to imply that there's not an easy way to detect it. For example the templar who "might be possessed" in DA2, and the case with Idunna where people don't even notice the mind control as it is being cast.

Modifié par Vandicus, 12 décembre 2013 - 01:13 .


#1659
TK514

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Edit: Vandicus is quick.  Beat me to it.

Modifié par TK514, 12 décembre 2013 - 01:13 .


#1660
dragonflight288

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eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.


FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.


Oh well, whatever. Jowan indirectly was responsible.


I'm still reading the past few pages to catch up, so I don't know if this has been responded to or not, but here I go anyway.

The actualy dialogue pretty much goes like this. Connor tells the Warden that Jowan had books he never let Connor near and expressly forbid him from reading. However, when Eamon fell ill/was poisoned and Isolde locked Jowan up, Connor was so desperate to help his father that he looked through Jowan's books to find anything that would help. After reading the books, he was approached by the Desire Demon in his dreams and he didn't know she was a demon. All he saw was a nice lady offering to help him save his father.

#1661
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Vandicus wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There's not that much to stop a powerful Jedi(or less powerful mage) with access to authority figures from deciding "Hey, it'd be really neat if I ruled everyone instead." then mind-controlling the heck out of them.

Regular access to authority figures in a Medieval setting is probably the last thing that should be allowed to mages.


The mage's own limits are probably a stumbling block, and Gregoir all but states Templars can catch this sort of thing at a glance. Then there's the Litany of Adralla, which I hope is available more widely than we've been given cause to think.


As I understood it, mages specifically need to use blood magic to control people, which is all about violating a mage's normal limits.


You understood correctly. That doesn't mean they have no limits at all, though. We don't know how long a blood mage can sustain it, how many of the ruler's ministers they can control at the same time they control him, or the extent to which the individual mage's skill effects either. (Or, more likely, both.)

"The Litany of Adralla[/b] disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late."

From the specific codex regarding it.

So the Litany as it stands really isn't an effective counter-measure.


That's what the Codex says, yes, but I got the impression that Lambert uses it to actively remove Rhys from Cole's power.

What exactly does Gregoir say in regards to detecting mind-control? The reaction most people have to it when it is brought up, as well as demonic possession, seems to imply that there's not an easy way to detect it. For example the templar who "might be possessed" in DA2, and the case with Idunna where people don't even notice the mind control as it is being cast.


Gregoir looks at Lily and says "She seems shocked, but fully in control of her own mind. Not a thrall of the blood mage, then." I think the idea is that he's looking for tells, sort of like trying to catch a liar or read another poker player.

#1662
Medhia Nox

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@dragonflight288: And what did you do as a child when you were "expressly forbidden" to do anything?

Whether Jowan was responsible or not - he is completely and utterly incapable of teaching magic in particular - and children in general.

He doesn't even know real magic. The very fact that he can't understand real magic, is why he has to go to ghetto magic in the first place.

Those who cannot do - do blood magic.

That man masqueraded as a competent teacher of magic. Had he been what Isolde had wanted (guilty of her own crimes to be sure) - it would have been one more step toward avoiding what happened in Redcliff.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 décembre 2013 - 02:05 .


#1663
dragonflight288

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: And what did you do as a child when you were "expressly forbidden" to do anything?

Whether Jowan was responsible or not - he is completely and utterly incapable of teaching magic in particular - and children in general.

He doesn't even know real magic. The very fact that he can't understand real magic, is why he has to go to ghetto magic in the first place.

Those who cannot do - do blood magic.

That man masqueraded as a competent teacher of magic. Had he been what Isolde had wanted (guilty of her own crimes to be sure) - it would have been one more step toward avoiding what happened in Redcliff.


What I did? Normally I woke up late at night to play my SNES rather than go to bed early like I was told. :whistle:

Actually he never masqueraded as anything. He was caught by the templars and Loghain freed him and gave the templar who caught him to Howe. Isolde specifically says she had no reason not to trust the mages sent to her, and that she trusted Loghain.

Jowan didn't put on an act to get there, Loghain gave her Jowan the apostate she wanted to tutor her son only enough to hide his magic. She wasn't looking for an expert, only for the bare minimum of control, and turned to Loghain to provide. Her line specifically is "I had no idea the mage Loghain sent would be a murderer."

#1664
Vandicus

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


You understood correctly. That doesn't mean they have no limits at all, though. We don't know how long a blood mage can sustain it, how many of the ruler's ministers they can control at the same time they control him, or the extent to which the individual mage's skill effects either. (Or, more likely, both.)



That's what the Codex says, yes, but I got the impression that Lambert uses it to actively remove Rhys from Cole's power.


Gregoir looks at Lily and says "She seems shocked, but fully in control of her own mind. Not a thrall of the blood mage, then." I think the idea is that he's looking for tells, sort of like trying to catch a liar or read another poker player.


Gregoir's comments seem to imply that the control is long-term and disregards the distance of the caster(else he would have no reason to be concerned at all), and we're talking about Jowan here, who doesn't come off as the most impressive mage. Also if the Litany could be used against active mind-control, Gregoir would've used it on her just to be sure.

Even disregarding long periods of mind control, simply altering their letters or causing them to give false orders would be an easy way to stir up war. Just doesn't seem like a good idea to encourage, or even allow, mages frequent access to authority figures of significance.

Cole is an oddity. For one, he's not actually a mage. Not in the human sense anyways. Its possible the Litany includes more of Adralla's writings than simply her anti-mind control ones. Could be what he was using was an anti-demon aspect of the Litany, rather than an anti-mind control one. Its also possible that the Litany muts be used with the caster present or some other circumstance that normally does not occur except during the casting(and just happened to occur with Cole).


"Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons."

#1665
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Vandicus wrote...

Gregoir's comments seem to imply that the control is long-term and disregards the distance of the caster(else he would have no reason to be concerned at all), and we're talking about Jowan here, who doesn't come off as the most impressive mage.


Which comments are these, more specifically? I mean, now that I think about it I'm pretty sure Avernus makes clear you can do these sorts of things at a distance, but I don't recall Gregoir saying anything to hint at that.

Also if the Litany could be used against active mind-control, Gregoir would've used it on her just to be sure.


I'm under the impression it was retconned, since in DA:O it follows the rules you've set down and in Asunder I don't think it does.

Even disregarding long periods of mind control, simply altering their letters or causing them to give false orders would be an easy way to stir up war. Just doesn't seem like a good idea to encourage, or even allow, mages frequent access to authority figures of significance.


Okay, I get that a mage is more dangerous than other human beings, but seriously, altering their letters is something a mundane advisor could do too. Possibly just as easy or easier, since there's no earthly reason a mage would know how to alter a letter even if doing so magically was possible. Causing them to give false orders might be easier for a mage, but it's not all that much harder for a mundane evil chancellor to fake it.

Cole is an oddity. For one, he's not actually a mage. Not in the human sense anyways. Its possible the Litany includes more of Adralla's writings than simply her anti-mind control ones. Could be what he was using was an anti-demon aspect of the Litany, rather than an anti-mind control one. Its also possible that the Litany muts be used with the caster present or some other circumstance that normally does not occur except during the casting(and just happened to occur with Cole).


Except that you'd expect exactly that to work against what Uldred was doing.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 décembre 2013 - 08:04 .


#1666
MisterJB

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Believing a monster sleeps under your bed and doing everything in your power to make that monster does NOT prove you right. It makes you an abhorrent person.

I will stand by my claim that out of all the blood mages and abominations Anders claims were pushed into it, only one can be believed and that is Alain. And not only did his suffering have nothing to do with Meredith, he still knew better than to target innocent people or demand the absolution of the Circle.
This whole "Templars made me do it" is just one more way the mages use to avoid taking responsabilities for their actions.

Not so. The Bloodragers are a gang of apostates that have many... well... blood mages in their group. And they run all throughout Hightown while the Templars, who are stationed there, do literally nothing about the situation. There are only TWO circle blood mages in Act 3: Huon and Grace. The others were, IIRC, using regular magic.

Huon, Evelina, Grace, every mage in Grace's group; those blood mages from the Mage Underground.

Depends on the context of the situation.

And I could just as easily say that when Meredith leaves, she's going to plant evidence there.

At that point in time, it's feasible. Later on not so much after what the game does, but at the time yes.

Meredith may be paranoid but she is not one to plant evidence. She suspected Orsino; and for good reasons; when the Champion assured her he was not involved with Grace's group, she doesn't accept it but she also don't tell Hawke to lie to the Grand Cleric. She just intends to wait for Orsino to reveal his true self in time.

I still don't see why I should condemn Orsino for all of this when the woman who had full authority at that point and didn't need Orsino to say such a thing could've easily gone "Well, ****, now I've got the power to search the Circle."

C'mon, you're better than this, You know that the morality or lack thereof of Meredith's actions have nothing to do with whether Orsino's are suspicious or not.
And it is suspicious for him to agree to Meredith's search only after he has been to the Circle.

Uldred. He summoned a slew of Demons and the Pride Demon he summoned ended up forcefully possessing him because he couldn't control. He screamed and fought against it, but in the end lost.

What does that have to do with anything?
I'm saying that the demons in the Warden's Keep turned against the Wardens that would have fought by their side despite being surrounded by the King's forces and, therefore, there is no reason to believe the demons in Kirkwall would prioritize killing the Templars before turning on the mages.

Since Demons operate on a power hierarchy, with the more powerful ones dominating the lesser ones, the more powerful demons could've told the lesser ones that this would be the plan.

That would either mean that demons are just waiting on stand by for mages to summon them or...
That they can come up with a chain of command and insidious battle plans on the spot despite being summoned to the middle of a battle.
Hardly feasible. It's much more believable the mages were just skilled enough to control the weaker denizens of the Fade like Shades and Rage and Sloth Demons.
You don't ever see those Circle mage summoning and controlling Pride and Desire Demons but, if these creatures that stand at the top of the demonic hierarchy, somehow designed a plan that involved obeying mages, why not pretend that they were being controlled as well?

Arguable. We don't know the specifics of Demon deal making in regards to blood magic, so we can't say for certain one way or the other. I believe the situation forced them into it, you believe they were long time blood mages now exposed by the circumstances.

Avernus claims that he spent months studying the darkest corners of the Fade and designing the glyphs that would allow him to summon and control demons. And he still failed.
And those mages in Kirkwall who we were previously told were denied grimoires and staffs managed to do it in the span of a night.
Na ah, that doesn't happen, not possible. They had to have been studying for months, if not years.

Very few Mages actually summoned Demons in the pro-Templar side of things.

Incorrect, I just played through the Pro-Templar ending and, while there are demons who appear on their own, there is only group of mages in the entire ending that doesn't, at one point or other, suddenly have non-hostile demons helping them fight and that is the group that accompanied Orsino.
So, more like 100% of the mages summoned demons.

I've always believed he's read up on certain things regarding blood magic, but has never once practiced it. And I don't see how a person could even safely practice making a Harvester, so remembering the ritual in total form is what I believe.

Grab a few rats, sticth them together. Even if you don't practicew making an Harvester, you'd still need to have some experience with blood magic in general to perform the spell.
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

Why would a man who's about to off himself and is fessing up to a whole bunch of **** lie about having never practiced blood magic up until that point? He has nothing left to lose and nothing to gain.

To make Meredith suffer. What would affect her more? Saying "You were right all along, Meredith. I am a blood mage" or "If you hadn't done anything, I never would have used blood magic."

#1667
The Elder King

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I don't recall if Meredith was present during the fight with Orsino in the templar part.

#1668
EmperorSahlertz

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Templar NPCs certainly helped out during the Orsino encounter, I don't recall if Meredith was or wasn't present, though I'd imagine she is. If not aiding in the fight itself, then she is present on the other side of the barrier Orsino erects.

#1669
MisterJB

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She is; she even helps killing Orsino.

#1670
The Elder King

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MisterJB wrote...

She is; she even helps killing Orsino.


Thanks. I haven't played DA2 for a long time.

#1671
Ieldra

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MisterJB wrote...
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic?

#1672
EmperorSahlertz

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Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic? 


Both of the things you mention has been achieved by non-blood magic means...

#1673
Silfren

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MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Believing a monster sleeps under your bed and doing everything in your power to make that monster does NOT prove you right. It makes you an abhorrent person.

I will stand by my claim that out of all the blood mages and abominations Anders claims were pushed into it, only one can be believed and that is Alain. And not only did his suffering have nothing to do with Meredith, he still knew better than to target innocent people or demand the absolution of the Circle.
This whole "Templars made me do it" is just one more way the mages use to avoid taking responsabilities for their actions.


Alain's suffering had nothing to do with Meredith?  Not true, not even REMOTELY true.  Meredith's general disregard for the well-being of mages is the reason why a templar felt perfectly free to abuse Alain.  Trying to claim that she bears no responsibility goes against the philosophy of a military order--as a commanding officer, Meredith IS responsible for what her soldiers do--and against the situation in general.  It was directly due to her leadership that the templars felt free to disregard mages' rights in the first place.  People like Alric and Kerras and those others don't exist under Knight Commanders like Greagoir in Origins, because those Knight Commanders pay attention to what their people are doing, and hold them accountable.

#1674
Hellion Rex

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic? 


Both of the things you mention has been achieved by non-blood magic means...


What we have now doesn't help against enthrallment/mind control once it has already occurred. Also, we don't know about many demon banishing spells.

#1675
Medhia Nox

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If blood magic could unsummon demons - Avernus wouldn't have been in the situation he was in.

That demon laughed at him for using blood magic.