1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If blood magic could unsummon demons - Avernus wouldn't have been in the situation he was in.

That demon laughed at him for using blood magic.

Well if blood magic has a difficult time, that might make it that much harder to do it by normal means. Adralla sounds like she knew how to do that kind of stuff with ease, but I don't feel like all her spells are readily accesible to the majority of Circle mages, other than the Litany.

[Lord Raijin]

hhh89 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The wikia stated that he allowed the demon to possess him. It doesn't say anything about him reading Jowan's books. I'd try to see if I can find the dialogues the Warden can have with Jowan.

FYI, the wiki tends to be meaningless.  Also, I've seen the dialogue in question.  It doesn't say anything that specifies exactly what was in those books or how Connor applied them, but it does clearly say that Connor looked at them.

I know. I look there in the case it has the info I need. Otherwise I try to find videos.
Thanks for the info. I remember that there was a dialogue where this was said. Though I found a video where the Warden decides to kill Connor, and when the Warden met him uptairs Connor said that the demon came to him. 

This doesn't make any sense at all. Jowan just escaped from the Circle after attempting to escape with the Warden, Lily and himself. The plan backfired and he eventually escaped by himself. How on earth could he had smuggled out books on top it off? Do the circle robes comes with an invisible backpacks or something?

[EmperorSahlertz]

He PROBABLY had an escape route planned, which he would still have taken use of. It isn't beyond imagination that he would have stashed some supplies in the vicinity of this escape route.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He PROBABLY had an escape route planned, which he would still have taken use of. It isn't beyond imagination that he would have stashed some supplies in the vicinity of this escape route.

But how could have he gotten out of the tower to plant supplies to escape?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, the supplies could have been planted on the inside part of the escape route? At the end of the day, there is nothing to discuss on the matter... Jowan made it out with a few tomes on blood magic to boot.

[The Elder King]

@Lord Raijin: my characters don't have backpacks, and yet I'm able to bring back to the camp tons of things.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, the supplies could have been planted on the inside part of the escape route? At the end of the day, there is nothing to discuss on the matter... Jowan made it out with a few tomes on blood magic to boot.

Oh, this should be interesting. Let's explore the possibility. Not that I'm discounting the fact Jowan did escape and he did have books, but we have no evidence, not even dialogue with Connor, that says these books are blood magic books. They could simply be books too advanced for Connor to read or have rituals like that one quest in Broken Circle where apprentices found a tome that ultimately summoned a demon on the lower levels, but there was no blood magic in that side-quest. Instead, I'd like to focus on the possibility of Jowan's 'supposed' escape route.

Let's look at Kinloch Hold. There is only one direct entrance and exit. Well, only one safe entrance and exit if you're not a shape-shifter and that's the front gate, which is followed by the lake and a boat run by Kester. Jowan is not a shapeshift so he can't fly out the upper windows, which means any and all escape routes would ultimately lead him past the templars watching the door and Keser at the boat.

Let's say hypothetically Gregoire and Irving didn't catch Jowan and Lily escaping the phylactery chamber. How then, would they escape without notice? We know Anders escaped his first time during exercises on the grounds by jumping into the lake and swimming across (Witch Hunt) but Finn says those exercises were cancelled as a result of Anders escaping that time. We also know from escape-artist Anders that escape from Ferelden's Circle is possible, but how then would Jowan and Lily get past the templars guarding the main entrance? Would they attack them? Would they hide in the shadows and wait for a shift-change?

And once outside, would they swim across, or somehow or another convince Kester that they belong outside and have authority to cross?

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic?

In any other situation, I migth believe this but Orsino was working with an unforgiving Knight Commander who had already sent for the Right of Annulment and who firmly believed he was the source of corruption in the Circle. This situation does not lend itself to the theoretical study of blood magic for defense purposes only - the reward just isn't worth the risk. Therefore, his studies of blood magic had to have been involved with some plan to lash out against the Templars.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic?

In any other situation, I migth believe this but Orsino was working with an unforgiving Knight Commander who had already sent for the Right of Annulment and who firmly believed he was the source of corruption in the Circle. This situation does not lend itself to the theoretical study of blood magic for defense purposes only - the reward just isn't worth the risk. Therefore, his studies of blood magic had to have been involved with some plan to lash out against the Templars.

Could have been, not necessarily had to have been. He could have been studying blood magic to prepare to defend his mages, only if things went too far, which it did.

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 décembre 2013 - 04:09 .

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic?

In any other situation, I migth believe this but Orsino was working with an unforgiving Knight Commander who had already sent for the Right of Annulment and who firmly believed he was the source of corruption in the Circle. This situation does not lend itself to the theoretical study of blood magic for defense purposes only - the reward just isn't worth the risk. Therefore, his studies of blood magic had to have been involved with some plan to lash out against the Templars.

Could have been, not necessarily had to have been. He could have been studying blood magic to prepare to defend his mages, only if things went too far, which it did.

Add in that despite the atrocious writing at the end, you can really only do that Harvester ritual once. Once you're a Harvester or somthing like that, there's no going back. There's no way he possibly could've practiced that spell before casting it at that time.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic?

In any other situation, I migth believe this but Orsino was working with an unforgiving Knight Commander who had already sent for the Right of Annulment and who firmly believed he was the source of corruption in the Circle. This situation does not lend itself to the theoretical study of blood magic for defense purposes only - the reward just isn't worth the risk. Therefore, his studies of blood magic had to have been involved with some plan to lash out against the Templars.

Could have been, not necessarily had to have been. He could have been studying blood magic to prepare to defend his mages, only if things went too far, which it did.

Add in that despite the atrocious writing at the end, you can really only do that Harvester ritual once. Once you're a Harvester or somthing like that, there's no going back. There's no way he possibly could've practiced that spell before casting it at that time.

It did seem rather like a last resort.

[Medhia Nox]

This notion that Templars can instagib regular mages is headcanon.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Believing a monster sleeps under your bed and doing everything in your power to make that monster does NOT prove you right. It makes you an abhorrent person.

I will stand by my claim that out of all the blood mages and abominations Anders claims were pushed into it, only one can be believed and that is Alain. And not only did his suffering have nothing to do with Meredith, he still knew better than to target innocent people or demand the absolution of the Circle.
This whole "Templars made me do it" is just one more way the mages use to avoid taking responsabilities for their actions.

Alain's suffering had nothing to do with Meredith?  Not true, not even REMOTELY true.  Meredith's general disregard for the well-being of mages is the reason why a templar felt perfectly free to abuse Alain.  Trying to claim that she bears no responsibility goes against the philosophy of a military order--as a commanding officer, Meredith IS responsible for what her soldiers do--and against the situation in general.  It was directly due to her leadership that the templars felt free to disregard mages' rights in the first place.  People like Alric and Kerras and those others don't exist under Knight Commanders like Greagoir in Origins, because those Knight Commanders pay attention to what their people are doing, and hold them accountable.

Very well, it was Meredith's responsability to make sure Karras either couldn't rape Alain or punish him after the deed and she failed in that regard; altough it is worth noting that Karras didn't feel perfectly free to do it, he took steps to prevent him from revealing what had happened because he feared punishment.
However, Meredith did not Do "everything in her power to make that monster"; the monster in this case being Alain resorting to blood magic.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Add in that despite the atrocious writing at the end, you can really only do that Harvester ritual once. Once you're a Harvester or somthing like that, there's no going back. There's no way he possibly could've practiced that spell before casting it at that time.

Grab a few rats, stitch them together. There, you've just practiced making an Harvester.
Not to mention that he could have practicted other forms of blood magic in order to be comfortable with it enough to cast it during the Annulment.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Could have been, not necessarily had to have been. He could have been studying blood magic to prepare to defend his mages, only if things went too far, which it did.

Which wouldn't change the fact Meredith was right and Orsino had been secretly practicing blood magic and he had been lying with every teeth he had in his mouth.
And most likely teaching it given the number of mages capable of summoning and controlling demons in that Circle.

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: That's delightfully twisted.

Also - couldn't he have just studied Quentin's work at stitching things together?

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: That's delightfully twisted.

Also - couldn't he have just studied Quentin's work at stitching things together?

Only if he had access to the necromantic spells. Just because he had the harvester spell doesn't necessarily mean he had access to all of Quentin's spells.

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 décembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Could have been, not necessarily had to have been. He could have been studying blood magic to prepare to defend his mages, only if things went too far, which it did.

Which wouldn't change the fact Meredith was right and Orsino had been secretly practicing blood magic and he had been lying with every teeth he had in his mouth.
And most likely teaching it given the number of mages capable of summoning and controlling demons in that Circle.

I highly doubt he taught anyone blood magic. I think that some people just learned on their own or from the numerous maleficar and apostates floating around Kirkwall. I think that the summoned demons were partially from the Veil split and some were summoned. But also remember that we saw quite a few that were in obvious thrall to demons too.

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic? 

Both of the things you mention has been achieved by non-blood magic means...

What we have now doesn't help against enthrallment/mind control once it has already occurred. Also, we don't know about many demon banishing spells.

We don't know *any* demon-banishing spells as far as I'm aware of.

@Medhia Nox, EmperorSahlertz:
The point is not that "blood magic can unsummon demons". It is that in order to counter or protect against effects unique to blood magic, you need to know those effects and how they come to be in-depth. If you're lucky, you'll never have to use blood magic for that, but you do need to know it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 décembre 2013 - 04:29 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Add in that despite the atrocious writing at the end, you can really only do that Harvester ritual once. Once you're a Harvester or somthing like that, there's no going back. There's no way he possibly could've practiced that spell before casting it at that time.

Grab a few rats, stitch them together. There, you've just practiced making an Harvester.
Not to mention that he could have practicted other forms of blood magic in order to be comfortable with it enough to cast it during the Annulment.

Interesting take.

Very well then, let's take this train of thought down the rails and see where it leads. I'm currently playing the newest Phoenix Wright game Dual Destinies and I'm going to use the by-word of all the Phoenix Wright (& Miles Edgworth Investigations and Apollo Justice) games. Evidence.

You assert that Orsino is a practicing blood mage and use his comfort in using the Harvester ritual, one that destroyed both his mind and his body at the point of casting it as evidence of this. Eluvianix and I have made the assertion that it was an act of Last Resort where the only options were to die or die, and in both the pro-templar and pro-mage endings he says he never once practiced blood magic before then.

I will add onto this. We know from Golems of Amgarrok that Harvesters are nothing more than a powerful Fade Spirit possessing corpses and flesh arranged in some manner. We also know from the lore that using blood magic increases risk of possession and the devs have confirmed that demons are attracted to power, and the more power a mage has, both political and magical, the more powerful a demon in the hierarchy takes note.

I say it may be possible that Orsino somehow got some information on Amgarrok, whether from the Carta, his connection to Quentin's study in Necromancy, or any number of reasons, and this information would be available after the Warden recovered it and left Amgarrok, whether through the Shaperate or from associates of the Warden as Amgarrok happened 5 or so years before Act 3. By using blood magic, Orsino may have been forcibly possessed and all the corpses he had prepared may have been meant to become a Harvester and he had no intention of becoming one himself. I say this because the moment he actually starts the ritual his eyes turn the exact same shade as Huon's from earlier in Act 3.

Orsino used blood magic as an act of desperation, and is power overwhelmed him at the last moment because he lacked control or training despite possessing theoretical knowledge. If you wish to refute this, then by all means do so.

EDIT: But if you do seek to refute my arguments, you must use evidence or point out how my logic is flawed based on the game events.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 12 décembre 2013 - 04:31 .

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...
We don't know *any* demon-banishing spells as far as I'm aware of.

Indeed, although Adralla's codex entry mentions some countering demonic summonings. However, that type of magic doesn't necessarily seem common knowledge.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
We don't know *any* demon-banishing spells as far as I'm aware of.

Indeed, although Adralla's codex entry mentions some countering demonic summonings. However, that type of magic doesn't necessarily seem common knowledge.

Or Adralla being a magister to begin with as Wynne calls Adralla a bard. Is she lying or has she been misinformed? This is especially suspicious because she is a lover of knowledge and there wouldn't be any way she didn't know unless she herself had been given false information.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: But we have been told the "exorcisms" can happen. I'll find the Codex entry if I have to.

We (you and I) just have very different ways in "dealing" with blood mages(magic).

Also "if" I could be coerced into accepting the study of blood magic (and I'm not saying anyone needs to coerce me - or that my disapproval of blood magic should matter to anyone but me) it would be through small teams of specialized mages that devote their entire life's work to studying blood magic and the means to combat it.

Not just some free for all unregulated study if you want to type of thing.

Those mages - like government employees in military positions - would be constantly checked up on. (My mother made bomb components - even I had checks done on me regularly.)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 décembre 2013 - 04:36 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
We don't know *any* demon-banishing spells as far as I'm aware of.

Indeed, although Adralla's codex entry mentions some countering demonic summonings. However, that type of magic doesn't necessarily seem common knowledge.

Or Adralla being a magister to begin with as Wynne calls Adralla a bard. Is she lying or has she been misinformed? This is especially suspicious because she is a lover of knowledge and there wouldn't be any way she didn't know unless she herself had been given false information.

I think Adralla's connections to Tevinter and blood magic might be the reason her work might not be all that common. The Chantry were probably EXTREMELY wary of her and her work. But the Litany might be their one concession as it give them an edge against blood magic.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieldra2: But we have been told the "exorcisms" can happen. I'll find the Codex entry if I have to.

We (you and I) just have very different ways in "dealing" with blood mages(magic).

Also "if" I could be coerced into accepting the study of blood magic (and I'm not saying anyone needs to coerce me - or that my disapproval of blood magic should matter to anyone but me) it would be through small teams of specialized mages that devote their entire life's work to studying blood magic and the means to combat it.

Not just some free for all unregulated study if you want to type of thing.

Those mages - like government employees in military positions - would be constantly checked up on. (My mother made bomb components - even I had checks done on me regularly.)

So you would be ok with a team of Adralla's doing research?