1858 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Eluvianix and I have made the assertion that it was an act of Last Resort where the only options were to die or die,

Which is not mutually exclusive to him having practiced blood magic for years.

Orsino may have been forcibly possessed and all the corpses he had prepared may have been meant to become a Harvester and he had no intention of becoming one himself. I say this because the moment he actually starts the ritual his eyes turn the exact same shade as Huon's from earlier in Act 3.

Orsino used blood magic as an act of desperation, and is power overwhelmed him at the last moment because he lacked control or training despite possessing theoretical knowledge. If you wish to refute this, then by all means do so.

You do realize that you just used to contradictory arguments? First, you said that Orsino may have been forcibly possessed; which makes no sense because he is speaking right before he starts the ritual and there is no way he was possessed in that timespan of a second without any visual effect whatsoever so, no, Orsino is not possessed; and then you said that he might have lost control of the spell; despite the fact that he appears to be in no distress whatsoever even as the corpses begin to surround him.
So, neither of those suggestions make much sense.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 décembre 2013 - 04:43 .

[Lord Raijin]

hhh89 wrote...

@Lord Raijin: my characters don't have backpacks, and yet I'm able to bring back to the camp tons of things.

The wonders of game mechanics

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Yes, but to combat blood magic it - not to make it a household name.

I believe the nature of blood magic is corrupting - and that the power does not outweigh the price.

And despite any assertions by anyone to the contrary - I think even the simplest forms of blood magic are unhealthy.

[The Elder King]

Lord Raijin wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Lord Raijin: my characters don't have backpacks, and yet I'm able to bring back to the camp tons of things.

The wonders of game mechanics

The same  might go for Jowan. Don't discriminate on NPCs. They have every rights to have invisible backpacks.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Eluvianix and I have made the assertion that it was an act of Last Resort where the only options were to die or die,

Which is not mutually exclusive to him having practiced blood magic for years.

But his statement that he never practiced blood magic at all previously is the only thing said on the matter. Before that moment, and even then, only in the pro-templar section, it's never stated Orsino is a suspected blood mage. Some gamer's may head-canon it, but Meredith never calls Orsino a blood mage until a pro-templar Hawke goes in and she says "I knew it."

Also, if you wish to say he practiced blood magic for years, present evidence. Dev account, confession from a student, a passage from the books. The fact that it's never been brought up before (and the fact that I've gone through them extensively before making my conclusions) shows there is NO evidence whatsoever. And I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but death-bed confessions are considered evidence in a court of law and is considered absolute truth unless it blatantly contradicts evidence.

At that moment, Orsino knows he's going to die and has absolutely no reason to lie. You wish to say he is lying, then give us a reason for that lie since most of the mages at that point are already dead and there's no one to protect.

Orsino may have been forcibly possessed and all the corpses he had prepared may have been meant to become a Harvester and he had no intention of becoming one himself. I say this because the moment he actually starts the ritual his eyes turn the exact same shade as Huon's from earlier in Act 3.

Orsino used blood magic as an act of desperation, and is power overwhelmed him at the last moment because he lacked control or training despite possessing theoretical knowledge. If you wish to refute this, then by all means do so.

You do realize that you just used to contradictory arguments? First, you said that Orsino may have been forcibly possessed; which makes no sense because he is speaking right before he starts the ritual and there is no way he was possessed in that timespan of a second without any visual effect whatsoever so, no, Orsino is not possessed; and then you said that he might have lost control of the spell; despite the fact that he appears to be in no distress whatsoever even as the corpses begin to surround him.
So, neither of those suggestions make much sense.

It's not contradictory, and I DO have evidence that such a quick possession is possible. I wouldn't make the assertion in the first place if I couldn't back it up.

It's absolutely stupid as far as game-play mechanics vs the lore goes, but it proves that split-second is enough to get possessed. Think back to Thrask's daughter. Her cry of 'help me, please,' and her near immediate possession shows it's possible. She was obviously forcibly possessed at that moment unless a demon was hiding in the shadows and took that statement as a contract, which would still show that demons can possess people that quickly. And appears to not be in distress? He was desperate and acted without fear of the conequences becaue he knew that no matter what happened he would be killed and had accepted it and decided to take as many of his attackers with him.

And need I remind of what Uldred looked like before transforming into the Pride Demon possessing him at the time we meet him in Kinloch Hold, he looked exactly the same as Uldred had previous to the possession.

If you wish to say my claims make no sense, you'll have to disprove the possibility of mages getting possessed so quickly, and also prove that Thrask's daughter getting possessed so quickly didn't actually happen, and prove that Orsino wasn't desperate to the point of beyond caring if you wish to call me statements contradictory.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But his statement that he never practiced blood magic at all previously is the only thing said on the matter. Before that moment, and even then, only in the pro-templar section, it's never stated Orsino is a suspected blood mage. Some gamer's may head-canon it, but Meredith never calls Orsino a blood mage until a pro-templar Hawke goes in and she says "I knew it."

Also, if you wish to say he practiced blood magic for years, present evidence. Dev account, confession from a student, a passage from the books. The fact that it's never been brought up before (and the fact that I've gone through them extensively before making my conclusions) shows there is NO evidence whatsoever. And I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but death-bed confessions are considered evidence in a court of law and is considered absolute truth unless it blatantly contradicts evidence.

Orsino was close friends with a blood mage, he traded correspondence with it, studied his work and was capable of performing a ridiculously complex blood magic ritual.
The first three prove that he had been involved in the research of blood magic for years and the last one strongly suggests that he was a practicioner himself.
Because the idea that he managed to perfectly meld his flesh with that of several other dead mages while using his soul as a stand in for a Fade spirit to create a perfectly functional living tank without having ever even tried the simplest of blood magic is kind of nonsensical.

At that moment, Orsino knows he's going to die and has absolutely no reason to lie. You wish to say he is lying, then give us a reason for that lie since most of the mages at that point are already dead and there's no one to protect.

The same reason he is turning into an Harvester in the first place. To hurt Meredith. Orsino is a spiteful man.
What do you think would negativelly affect Meredith more? Saying "You were right all along, I am a blood mage" or "If you hadn't done anything, I would have never tried blood magic. You did this, not me."

It's not contradictory,

It is contradictory. Either he was possessed by a spirit or he botched the ritual because he didn't have enough experience.
Not both at the same time.

It's absolutely stupid as far as game-play mechanics vs the lore goes, but it proves that split-second is enough to get possessed. Think back to Thrask's daughter. Her cry of 'help me, please,' and her near immediate possession shows it's possible. She was obviously forcibly possessed at that moment unless a demon was hiding in the shadows and took that statement as a contract, which would still show that demons can possess people that quickly.

 In those cases, there were obvious external signs that the mage was being possessed: brigh ligths, fire, levitation and then an horribly disfigured body.
There is no way Orsino could have been possessed without even flinching. If mages could be possessed at any time without people are in the room with them noticing, then they would be even more dangerous than they already are.

And appears to not be in distress? He was desperate and acted without fear of the conequences becaue he knew that no matter what happened he would be killed and had accepted it and decided to take as many of his attackers with him.

You presented the hypothesis that Orsino hadn't intended to be part of the Harvester. If this was true, then as the corpses began to circle him, he should ahev displayed some sort of distress when he realized the spell would include him.
Since he didn't, that means he wanted to be part of the monster which means he achieved the results he wanted which means he had experience with blood magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, the supplies could have been planted on the inside part of the escape route? At the end of the day, there is nothing to discuss on the matter... Jowan made it out with a few tomes on blood magic to boot.

Oh, this should be interesting. Let's explore the possibility. Not that I'm discounting the fact Jowan did escape and he did have books, but we have no evidence, not even dialogue with Connor, that says these books are blood magic books. They could simply be books too advanced for Connor to read or have rituals like that one quest in Broken Circle where apprentices found a tome that ultimately summoned a demon on the lower levels, but there was no blood magic in that side-quest. Instead, I'd like to focus on the possibility of Jowan's 'supposed' escape route.

Let's look at Kinloch Hold. There is only one direct entrance and exit. Well, only one safe entrance and exit if you're not a shape-shifter and that's the front gate, which is followed by the lake and a boat run by Kester. Jowan is not a shapeshift so he can't fly out the upper windows, which means any and all escape routes would ultimately lead him past the templars watching the door and Keser at the boat.

Let's say hypothetically Gregoire and Irving didn't catch Jowan and Lily escaping the phylactery chamber. How then, would they escape without notice? We know Anders escaped his first time during exercises on the grounds by jumping into the lake and swimming across (Witch Hunt) but Finn says those exercises were cancelled as a result of Anders escaping that time. We also know from escape-artist Anders that escape from Ferelden's Circle is possible, but how then would Jowan and Lily get past the templars guarding the main entrance? Would they attack them? Would they hide in the shadows and wait for a shift-change?

And once outside, would they swim across, or somehow or another convince Kester that they belong outside and have authority to cross?

Uhm.... Are you questioning wether or not Jowan ecaped the Circle? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
For the same reason Adralla read about it - to defend against it? Well, perhaps not in Orsino's case, but as a rule I think the ban against blood magic has done as much harm as good. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to unsummon demons or break magical mind control? And how could you ever learn to do that without studying blood magic?

In any other situation, I migth believe this but Orsino was working with an unforgiving Knight Commander who had already sent for the Right of Annulment and who firmly believed he was the source of corruption in the Circle. This situation does not lend itself to the theoretical study of blood magic for defense purposes only - the reward just isn't worth the risk. Therefore, his studies of blood magic had to have been involved with some plan to lash out against the Templars.

Could have been, not necessarily had to have been. He could have been studying blood magic to prepare to defend his mages, only if things went too far, which it did.

Add in that despite the atrocious writing at the end, you can really only do that Harvester ritual once. Once you're a Harvester or somthing like that, there's no going back. There's no way he possibly could've practiced that spell before casting it at that time.

There is the matter that the Dwarves BUILT a Harvester, which was then animated to life by a Magister of Tevinter, who it appears did not give up her life to do so. So it would seem that Orsino did a bit of a combine ritual, who both drew all the corpses together, and bound the demon within them, thus creating the Harvester. however as I pointed out initially, the Dwarves built a Harvester, which means that you can very much practice the magic behind it.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is the matter that the Dwarves BUILT a Harvester, which was then animated to life by a Magister of Tevinter, who it appears did not give up her life to do so. So it would seem that Orsino did a bit of a combine ritual, who both drew all the corpses together, and bound the demon within them, thus creating the Harvester. however as I pointed out initially, the Dwarves built a Harvester, which means that you can very much practice the magic behind it.

I think the ritual is similar in both situations. Nereda sealed a Fade spirit into those Casteless corpses to bring the golem to life. I think Orsino used blood magic to become that animating spark to merge with those corpses and bring them all to life.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is the matter that the Dwarves BUILT a Harvester, which was then animated to life by a Magister of Tevinter, who it appears did not give up her life to do so. So it would seem that Orsino did a bit of a combine ritual, who both drew all the corpses together, and bound the demon within them, thus creating the Harvester. however as I pointed out initially, the Dwarves built a Harvester, which means that you can very much practice the magic behind it.

I think the ritual is similar in both situations. Nereda sealed a Fade spirit into those Casteless corpses to bring the golem to life. I think Orsino used blood magic to become that animating spark to merge with those corpses and bring them all to life.

Indeed. But as I said, how the Dwarves did it clearly shows that you can practice the Harvester ritual. Proving that Orsino could have practiced it in great detail.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 décembre 2013 - 06:44 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is the matter that the Dwarves BUILT a Harvester, which was then animated to life by a Magister of Tevinter, who it appears did not give up her life to do so. So it would seem that Orsino did a bit of a combine ritual, who both drew all the corpses together, and bound the demon within them, thus creating the Harvester. however as I pointed out initially, the Dwarves built a Harvester, which means that you can very much practice the magic behind it.

I think the ritual is similar in both situations. Nereda sealed a Fade spirit into those Casteless corpses to bring the golem to life. I think Orsino used blood magic to become that animating spark to merge with those corpses and bring them all to life.

Indeed. But as I said, how the Dwarves did it clearly shows that you can practice the Harvester ritual. Proving that Orsino could have practiced it in great detail.

I'm not disagreeing, I was just qualifying your statement a tad. Thing is, it could be a very real possibility that he did practice it. I am inclined to think he didn't, but we have no actual proof either way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is the matter that the Dwarves BUILT a Harvester, which was then animated to life by a Magister of Tevinter, who it appears did not give up her life to do so. So it would seem that Orsino did a bit of a combine ritual, who both drew all the corpses together, and bound the demon within them, thus creating the Harvester. however as I pointed out initially, the Dwarves built a Harvester, which means that you can very much practice the magic behind it.

I think the ritual is similar in both situations. Nereda sealed a Fade spirit into those Casteless corpses to bring the golem to life. I think Orsino used blood magic to become that animating spark to merge with those corpses and bring them all to life.

Indeed. But as I said, how the Dwarves did it clearly shows that you can practice the Harvester ritual. Proving that Orsino could have practiced it in great detail.

I'm not disagreeing, I was just qualifying your statement a tad. Thing is, it could be a very real possibility that he did practice it. I am inclined to think he didn't, but we have no actual proof either way.

Well, logical deduction would indicate that he did practice it. Considering that the Dwarves tried and failed for years to make the ritual work, I doubt that Orsino just made it happen through dumbluck. Orsino was obivously, to me anyway, a far more sinister character than many are willing to let him be in their minds.

[dragonflight288]

The dwarves didn't cast the ritual though. They had the aid of a Tevinter Magister.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, the supplies could have been planted on the inside part of the escape route? At the end of the day, there is nothing to discuss on the matter... Jowan made it out with a few tomes on blood magic to boot.

Oh, this should be interesting. Let's explore the possibility. Not that I'm discounting the fact Jowan did escape and he did have books, but we have no evidence, not even dialogue with Connor, that says these books are blood magic books. They could simply be books too advanced for Connor to read or have rituals like that one quest in Broken Circle where apprentices found a tome that ultimately summoned a demon on the lower levels, but there was no blood magic in that side-quest. Instead, I'd like to focus on the possibility of Jowan's 'supposed' escape route.

Let's look at Kinloch Hold. There is only one direct entrance and exit. Well, only one safe entrance and exit if you're not a shape-shifter and that's the front gate, which is followed by the lake and a boat run by Kester. Jowan is not a shapeshift so he can't fly out the upper windows, which means any and all escape routes would ultimately lead him past the templars watching the door and Keser at the boat.

Let's say hypothetically Gregoire and Irving didn't catch Jowan and Lily escaping the phylactery chamber. How then, would they escape without notice? We know Anders escaped his first time during exercises on the grounds by jumping into the lake and swimming across (Witch Hunt) but Finn says those exercises were cancelled as a result of Anders escaping that time. We also know from escape-artist Anders that escape from Ferelden's Circle is possible, but how then would Jowan and Lily get past the templars guarding the main entrance? Would they attack them? Would they hide in the shadows and wait for a shift-change?

And once outside, would they swim across, or somehow or another convince Kester that they belong outside and have authority to cross?

Uhm.... Are you questioning wether or not Jowan ecaped the Circle? 

Nope. Just the possibility if his escape was properly thought out beyond destroying his phylactery.

[MisterJB]

Well, he was better at public relations than Meredith. Unfortunately, that seems to have convinced many that he was some sort of exemplary mage that Bioware butchered in the last few seconds.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 décembre 2013 - 07:52 .

[dragonflight288]

To be honest here, I'm mainly just playing devil's advocate mainly to look at it from multiple perspectives here. But I'm debating this point because I find it a fascinating topic.

Orsino was close friends with a blood mage, he traded correspondence with it, studied his work and was capable of performing a ridiculously complex blood magic ritual.
The first three prove that he had been involved in the research of blood magic for years and the last one strongly suggests that he was a practicioner himself.
Because the idea that he managed to perfectly meld his flesh with that of several other dead mages while using his soul as a stand in for a Fade spirit to create a perfectly functional living tank without having ever even tried the simplest of blood magic is kind of nonsensical.

It is nonsensical, but there is still no evidence that he was a practitioner of blood magic before that point. Let me state that I have no doubt he studied blood magic, merely question whether he could practice it. And let me elaborate on that.

It has been stated that he couldn't have performed that ritual unless he practiced blood magic, so let me ask this, mainly as a mental exercise. When could he have found the time to practice away from Meredith and the templars? In Act 3 Orsino tells a pro-mage Hawke that if he investigated Thrask's rebellion (and he doesn't know it's a rebellion and fears they're practicing blood magic) Meredith would use it as evidence of his involvement regardless of the truth. I say we can gather from this, as well as Meredith's nature as a powerful and paranoid person, whose faults have been exacerbated by the idol, that she would've been watching Orsino like a Hawke for ANY justification to put the Circle to the torch, and she really wanted to do this. Kerras in Act 3 (if he lives past act 1) outright says that Meredith is going over Elthina's head and requesting permission for the Right of Annulment after Elthina denied her. She was going out of her way to look for evidence and had her eye on Orsino.

When would he have been able to get away from the Circle and Meredith's watchful eye to practice?

Because if he, the First Enchanter, was able to find the time to actively practice blood magic and Meredith didn't know despite living in the same place, having all the power over the mages lives and having her office literally just a few steps across the hall from his, then that ultimately means Meredith was NOT doing her own job.

To make the assertion that Orsino practiced blood magic in such an environment is almost exactly like saying that Meredith and the templars couldn't be bothered to do their actual jobs.

The same reason he is turning into an Harvester in the first place. To hurt Meredith. Orsino is a spiteful man.
What do you think would negativelly affect Meredith more? Saying "You were right all along, I am a blood mage" or "If you hadn't done anything, I would have never tried blood magic. You did this, not me."

Fair point. But it still makes absolutely no sense for a pro-mage Hawke who just fought off a horde of templars and Meredith isn't even there to lash out against.

It is contradictory. Either he was possessed by a spirit or he botched the ritual because he didn't have enough experience.
Not both at the same time.

Why can't both be true? It's already established using blood magic increases risk of possession because demons are drawn to power, the veil in Kirkwall is paper thin and is probably tearing during the Annulment due to the violence and all the magic being cast. If he lacked experience and tried casting a powerful blood magic ritual and botched, why wouldn't a demon be able to take advantage of that very moment and possess him?

Until you explain why both are exclusive options, and that a demon couldn't have possessed him in a moment of weakness while using blood magic, then it is not contradictory.

In those cases, there were obvious external signs that the mage was being possessed: brigh ligths, fire, levitation and then an horribly disfigured body.
There is no way Orsino could have been possessed without even flinching. If mages could be possessed at any time without people are in the room with them noticing, then they would be even more dangerous than they already are.

Uldred, Merethari, the templars who were possessed....no flashing lights, ugly warts and disfigurations there.

You presented the hypothesis that Orsino hadn't intended to be part of the Harvester. If this was true, then as the corpses began to circle him, he should ahev displayed some sort of distress when he realized the spell would include him.
Since he didn't, that means he wanted to be part of the monster which means he achieved the results he wanted which means he had experience with blood magic.

That or he was driven past the point of caring, which is a very real possibility considering every single one of the mages under his command, including the children, were all being slaughtered for a crime none of them had committed and most of them were already dead.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, he was better at public relations than Meredith. Unfortunately, that seems to have convinced many that he was some sort of exemplary mage that Bioware butchered in the last few seconds.

I attribute that to bad writing and the fact that devs admitted they threw him in as a boss fight for the sake of having another boss fight.

[Beerfish]

It was 100% clear that Orsinio was dabbling if not endorsing bad types of magic due to his connections with mommy killer. It was also 100% clear that he was dabbling if not endorsing bad types of magic when out of the blue he has the ability to become a harvester.

In effect, his actions ended up legitimizing the actions of the crazed and paranoid Meredith. It's as simple as that.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

It was 100% clear that Orsinio was dabbling if not endorsing bad types of magic due to his connections with mommy killer. It was also 100% clear that he was dabbling if not endorsing bad types of magic when out of the blue he has the ability to become a harvester.

In effect, his actions ended up legitimizing the actions of the crazed and paranoid Meredith. It's as simple as that.

Oh? Then there must be evidence that exists that even Meredith couldn't find in all her paranoia, correct?

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: What I don't understand is - why isn't the simplest reasoning not the most likely for you?

We know, for a fact, that Orsino knows how to become a Harvester - because he did.

We have never been given an example of instantaneous magical knowledge.

The simplest answer - is that he studied blood magic, specifically - Harvesters and how to become one.

Why - instead - do we headcanon an Orsino that instantaneously does what we've seen no other mage do? That is - learn how to practice a form of magic without any previous study?

Is exonerating him and making him seem like an innocent victim THAT important to people?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 décembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: What I don't understand is - why isn't the simplest reasoning not the most likely for you?

We know, for a fact, that Orsino knows how to become a Harvester - because he did.

We have never been given an example of instantaneous magical knowledge.

The simplest answer - is that he studied blood magic, specifically - Harvesters and how to become one.

Why - instead - do we headcanon an Orsino that instantaneously does what we've seen no other mage do? That is - learn how to practice a form of magic without any previous study?

Is exonerating him and making him seem like an innocent victim THAT important to people?

It's not so much exonerating him from my perspective, but closer to looking at the situation from multiple angles.

I'll admit it here, I actually think he was a blood mage and he somehow managed to keep it quiet. That is my actual opinion.

But as a mental exercise, which I sometimes do just for the sake of it, how then is it possible Meredith could not have known or gathered any evidence? His office is right across the hall from hers. They live in the exact same building, and Meredith has full power over the rights of mages, and is only barely kept in check by Elthina. Heck, a simple walk around the Gallows courtyard is enough to give Hawke, a non-resident, all the evidence needed to strip Ser Alrik of all authority and leave him to rot in a prison cell to suffer the effectsof lyrium withdrawal, but not a single person who has the authority (Elthina, Cullen and Meredith) to actually do anything seem to know, or a be inclined to do anything whatsoever to improve the situation for the mages and how they're treated.

As such, what are the templars doing that is keeping them from doing their actual jobs?

If Orsino is a blood mage, why didn't Meredith know or why couldn't she gather evidence? What kept her from gathering evidence about the abuses her templars were doing?

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, he was better at public relations than Meredith. Unfortunately, that seems to have convinced many that he was some sort of exemplary mage that Bioware butchered in the last few seconds.

We know that he was put as a boss fight during the end of development becuase they felt the game needed another boss fight.
We don't know if the relationship with Quentin was implemented at the same time. It's possible, since all they needed to do was a letter and a little dialogue. Though in the end it's pointless to debate this, since the character is set in stone and Bioware will not change him and his actions.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The dwarves didn't cast the ritual though. They had the aid of a Tevinter Magister.

And it took the Magister several years to perfect the spell.... So obviously it is possible to practice the Harvester Ritual. I don't see the point in disputing this, since what I am saying is proven in the lore...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

It was 100% clear that Orsinio was dabbling if not endorsing bad types of magic due to his connections with mommy killer. It was also 100% clear that he was dabbling if not endorsing bad types of magic when out of the blue he has the ability to become a harvester.

In effect, his actions ended up legitimizing the actions of the crazed and paranoid Meredith. It's as simple as that.

Oh? Then there must be evidence that exists that even Meredith couldn't find in all her paranoia, correct?

Well, considering that Meredith was actively PREVENTED from even attempting to find evidence, I think that it is pretty clear why Meredith never got any hard evidence.

hhh89 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Well, he was better at public relations than Meredith. Unfortunately, that seems to have convinced many that he was some sort of exemplary mage that Bioware butchered in the last few seconds.

We know that he was put as a boss fight during the end of development becuase they felt the game needed another boss fight.
We don't know if the relationship with Quentin was implemented at the same time. It's possible, since all they needed to do was a letter and a little dialogue. Though in the end it's pointless to debate this, since the character is set in stone and Bioware will not change him and his actions.

He was probably always supposed to be a boss fight for the Templar supporters, considering that they would be annulling his Circle.

[dragonflight288]

Well, considering that Meredith was actively PREVENTED from even attempting to find evidence, I think that it is pretty clear why Meredith never got any hard evidence.

And what really prevented her? Orsino? Ppphh, that wouldn't stop her, not really. She had full authority for a search. She has the authority to choose 3 apostates from starkhaven at random and execute/tranquil them based on if they escape or return to the Circle without any issues. She can order a death squad of templars to go around killing mage-supporters who are NOT mages in broad daylight and in the streets without being removed by the magistrate or Elthina. She could seize nearly all political power in Kirkwall and retain that power despite the nobility's protests. But she lacks the capacity to order a search of the Gallows?

The only reason we think Orsino prevented her was near the end of Act 3. Orsino was going to Elthina about Meredith searching the Gallows, and claimed she was seeing blood magic everywhere and was going to Elthina in an attempt to ask the Grand Cleric to keep Meredith from searching the Gallows, and Meredith was trying to keep him from seeing Elthina completely, and my impression was she was ready to attack him right then and there, which is possible since at the beginning of Act 3 she had every intention of making an example of Orsino save for Elthina's interference.

It may be possible she was conducting the search and Orsino went to the one person who could stop her, and Meredith tried to keep that from happening and had to halt the search while she did this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, considering that Meredith was actively PREVENTED from even attempting to find evidence, I think that it is pretty clear why Meredith never got any hard evidence.

And what really prevented her? Orsino? Ppphh, that wouldn't stop her, not really. She had full authority for a search. She has the authority to choose 3 apostates from starkhaven at random and execute/tranquil them based on if they escape or return to the Circle without any issues. She can order a death squad of templars to go around killing mage-supporters who are NOT mages in broad daylight and in the streets without being removed by the magistrate or Elthina. She could seize nearly all political power in Kirkwall and retain that power despite the nobility's protests. But she lacks the capacity to order a search of the Gallows?

Considering that Apostates are NOT Circle Mages despite their backgrounds, then yes.. Meredith is indeed allowed to punsih the apostates as she sees fit.
I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.
And yes. Elthina is STILL her superior, and if Elthina says that Meredith will not search the Gallows, then Meredith won't.
And this is another case of me failing to see the purpose of discussion... We KNOW that Meredith was prevented from searching the Gallows, so what is the point in disputing it?

dragonflight288 wrote...
The only reason we think Orsino prevented her was near the end of Act 3. Orsino was going to Elthina about Meredith searching the Gallows, and claimed she was seeing blood magic everywhere and was going to Elthina in an attempt to ask the Grand Cleric to keep Meredith from searching the Gallows, and Meredith was trying to keep him from seeing Elthina completely, and my impression was she was ready to attack him right then and there, which is possible since at the beginning of Act 3 she had every intention of making an example of Orsino save for Elthina's interference. 

I doubt Meredith would be sstupid enough to attack the First Enchanter baselessly in front of witnesses.

dragonflight288 wrote...
It may be possible she was conducting the search and Orsino went to the one person who could stop her, and Meredith tried to keep that from happening and had to halt the search while she did this.

Considering that Meredith specifically says that she is going to search the Gallows, I think it is safe to say that the search was not an ongoing thing at the moment of the scene.