1858 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

MisterJB wrote...

It is true that Bethany survived many years outside of the Circle without becoming an Abomination. But it is also true a great many apostates have become Abominations, for instance Connor.
Therefore, it is a gamble. A mage may or may not become an Abomination. But if s/he does, hundreds if not thousands of people will die. On the other hand, if that mage is placed in the Circle, the worse that will happen is that mage will have to live a life of seclusion.
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

[MisterJB]

wright1978 wrote...
Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

[Vulpe]

MisterJB wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
In Dragon Age 2 Anders said something that was completely relevant and valid. He asked my mage Hawke that shouldn't the mages have the freedom that I (My hawke) had, and you know what? I agree with him. If my Hawke could live as a free mage so should everyone else. My Hawke plus Bethany never had circle training; never undergo the Harrowing, and yet we manage to survive without being posessed. The templars wants to stick their noses down at everyones business. They're too busy harassing the mages that they fail to see their own curruption within their military organzation.

It is true that Bethany survived many years outside of the Circle without becoming an Abomination. But it is also true a great many apostates have become Abominations, for instance Connor.
Therefore, it is a gamble. A mage may or may not become an Abomination. But if s/he does, hundreds if not thousands of people will die. On the other hand, if that mage is placed in the Circle, the worse that will happen is that mage will have to live a life of seclusion.
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

Game lore indicates that abominations are rare, actually., which basically means that the assertion that a "great many" apostates have become abominations is simply false.  It could be argued that this isn't true simply because there aren't many apostates in the first place, but I don't think that's true at all.  Like it or not, there is the example of Rivain.  Otherwise, there's just that: the lore stating that abominations are rare, a statement made in the codex entry on abominations and in the World of Thedas.

Per the Broken Circle quest and the situation of Kirkwall, both are situations outside the norm, with specific circumstances leading to the high incidence of abominations.  Unless you want to take issue with the way the lore is presented (which is certainly a valid approach, considering that Bioware frequently fails at this), then the danger of a free apostate seems to be quite overstated.

Modifié par Silfren, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:45 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

The Thedas exist more then 8000 years without any Templars who esist only ~700 years and who do things only worst

The Templar and Seeker Orders MUST be destroyed as Orlais Chantry Circle's

the original Cirlce's were created by Tevinters as places for science, keeping knoledges and to study mages and no more..

..after some centuries Orlais was formed with their Orlais Chantry who after 2 blight create their Chantry Сircles with Templars and Seekers...

and when Chantry hunt and imprison mages in this concentration camps-Circles, deprived them of all rights, freedoms and property, promote them as Thedas curse...they destroyed most of the knowledges and chantry mages have the worst magic education(only Qunari and Darkspawn have worst) and they risking their lives in harrowing

Templars have "holy rights" to kill mages just because they mages....mages in Chantry Cirlces are oppressed, beaten,raped and if some forget mages as slaves work for Chantry and Templars and brings them a lot of money and only mages can create Lythany of Anralla, philacterys and do other stuff

So people then you see abominations and crazy blood mages remember who the source of them in 95%...this is Orlais Chantry and their Templars


Those peoples who serve in Templar/Seeker order and many of the Orlais Chantry must be executed and inprison according to their crimes, others will be disbanded as Templars and will not get their Templars rights and lyrium....those who will resist would be executed with Red Templars

all property, lyrium and forts of the Templar/Seeker Order must be confiscated as most of Orlais Chantry propertys

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 03 décembre 2013 - 09:20 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dark Korsar wrote...


Templars have "holy rights" to kill mages just because they mages....mages in Chantry Cirlces are oppressed, beaten,raped and if some forget mages as slaves work for Chantry and Templars and brings them a lot of money and only mages can create Lythany of Anralla, philacterys and do other stuff

Most of what you wrote is a legitimate reading of the situation (though it supports a degree of brutality Meredith would be delighted by, were it directed towards the mages), but this paragraph? It has a basis in fact, but most of it isn't entirely true. Templars do not have the holy right to kill mages because they are mages. A lot of the mages seem to see it this way, as do a disturbing number of Templars, but the fact remains that Templars are required to kill those mages who are a threat, and may not legally kill a mage for any other reason.

Furthermore, we have from Gaider that the mages are not obligated to work. They are obligated to stay in the concentration camp, and they are obligated to either accept an educational process that culminates in the Harrowing or accept Tranquility. As for being forced to work? No. Apparently any mage who actually works to make the system work does so voluntarily. That's probably why Senior Enchanter Uldred never taught (according to Wynne), despite being a Senior Enchanter; if they could force their best to teach, one would think they would do so.

For that matter, do we know that only a mage can create a copy of the Litany of Adralla? They're certainly not the only ones capable of using it (since any Warden can, and I think Lambert can as well) but as for how it's created I didn't think we'd seen any hint that it's physically more than words on a page.

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

Nor that he was himself educated in a Circle.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:11 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, the "victims" of this supposed state of fear are now imposing their own state of fear upon a much large percentage of the population who are terrified of people who are capable of setting them on fire with a thought and who have no restrictions beyond moral ones.

They're doing no such thing. The mages have done nothing to antagonize the non-mage population.

Fearing an entire group of people just because they're capable of xyz makes you a prejudiced idiot. Moral restrictions are perfectly adequate, unless you erroneously believe that all mages are amoral psychopaths. And, again, anyone who believes that is a prejudiced idiot.

In the real world, anyone can make a bomb that will kill dozens of people, and the only thing preventing them from doing so is moral restrictions, because the law can't respond to a crime that hasn't happened yet. So let's all just be afraid and hateful towards each other, that's sure to work out.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
For that matter, do we know that only a mage can create a copy of the Litany of Adralla? They're certainly not the only ones capable of using it (since any Warden can, and I think Lambert can as well) but as for how it's created I didn't think we'd seen any hint that it's physically more than words on a page.

I'd just like to know more about the Litany of Adralla, period.  If only mages can work magic, then it leaves a big gaping question as to why anyone, mage or no, can work the Litany merely by reciting it.  It HAS to be more than physically just words on a page--the fact that you don't have to be a mage to "cast" it is a big enough hint right there.  Nothing in the lore has ever suggested that any given language within Thedas is inherently magical, so what gives?  

Modifié par Silfren, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

Nor that he was himself educated in a Circle.

I think, actually, that Malcom was Circle-educated.  Isn't part of his story that he had escaped from Ferelden's Circle?

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...
Why is it that the freedoms of mages matter so much more than the lives of normals? Why is it that we should pay more attentions to the mages who didn't become Abominations than we should to those who did?

Why do people like you automatically assume that mages who are given their freedom will go off and start a massive genocide against the mundanes? That free mages of the south will fallow their magisters brothers and sisters up north and start rounding up the "normals" and enslaved them?


I believe in fairness. Mages and the mundanes are both equal in my eyes. They both should be given the same rights, and both should be free.

[ScarMK]

Silfren wrote...

I think, actually, that Malcom was Circle-educated.  Isn't part of his story that he had escaped from Ferelden's Circle?

He's saying not to forget that Malcolm was circle-educated.  Not that he wasn't.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: I cannot build a bomb. I do not possess any knowledge in explosives.

You know what though? People who research how to build bombs get flagged. People in the military who know how to build bombs have records.

Does it stop any of those people from misusing bombs? No. Why? Too much freedom is actually the answer.

But, a fine secondary answer is that "it helps" prevent misuse.

[Lord Raijin]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

Nor that he was himself educated in a Circle.

I think, actually, that Malcom was Circle-educated.  Isn't part of his story that he had escaped from Ferelden's Circle?

Malcom Hawke escaped from the gallows in Kirkwall, not from the Circle tower in Ferelden.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

He was also a mage trained in the circle. So most of what the taught them was probably just stuff they taught in the circles anyway. No real reason she shouldn't have gone.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: I cannot build a bomb. I do not possess any knowledge in explosives.

Lacking the knowledge doesn't make you incapable. You are able to learn, so you possess the capacity.

You know what though? People who research how to build bombs get flagged. People in the military who know how to build bombs have records.

You would know, of course, being privy as you are to secret government and military records.

Does it stop any of those people from misusing bombs? No. Why? Too much freedom is actually the answer.

Are you saying we should arrest anyone who researches explosives?

[Lord Raijin]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: I cannot build a bomb. I do not possess any knowledge in explosives.

You know what though? People who research how to build bombs get flagged. People in the military who know how to build bombs have records.

Does it stop any of those people from misusing bombs? No. Why? Too much freedom is actually the answer.

But, a fine secondary answer is that "it helps" prevent misuse.

That's forensically false. Anyone could research on how to build bombs, but it is the forensic edvience that is left behind that wands up catching the suspect plus the deep scan from their hard drives once a search warrent has been conducted.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Well, the "victims" of this supposed state of fear are now imposing their own state of fear upon a much large percentage of the population who are terrified of people who are capable of setting them on fire with a thought and who have no restrictions beyond moral ones.

They're doing no such thing. The mages have done nothing to antagonize the non-mage population.

That's not entirely true. Quentin killed a non-mage woman (that we know of; I don't think his other victims were mages either), and we all know what the Magisters are up to. I agree with you that this isn't enough justification for the idea of a mandatory Circle on it's own, but it's not all the Circle has to recommend it. It also means that abominations form in a hardened target, and thus die in shorter order than would otherwise be possible.

Fearing an entire group of people just because they're capable of xyz makes you a prejudiced idiot. Moral restrictions are perfectly adequate, unless you erroneously believe that all mages are amoral psychopaths. And, again, anyone who believes that is a prejudiced idiot.

The problem is that moral restrictions aren't always sufficient. A mage could go insane, a mage could just be a bad person from the start, or a mage could find him/herself in a situation where it's crime or starvation. (I agree that there's massive flaws in the Circle system, but except in Cole's case I've never heard of a mage starving in the Circle.) And that's discounting the possibility of a mage going abomination, which they don't always do by choice.

In the real world, anyone can make a bomb that will kill dozens of people, and the only thing preventing them from doing so is moral restrictions, because the law can't respond to a crime that hasn't happened yet. So let's all just be afraid and hateful towards each other, that's sure to work out.

The problems with this analogy are that A; As I've noted, a mage can be dangerous whether or not they choose to be. B: Making a bomb that kills dozens of people isn't quite the same scale as an abomination, the dangers of which are the only reason I believe the Circle system is justifiable. (It has other benefits, but even all of these put together wouldn't be enough for me to sign off.) We have from the Chantry that entire cities have fallen to abominations, and while I agree there's reason to doubt their objectivity we see at Redcliffe that this can potentially happen.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:44 .

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

He was also a mage trained in the circle. So most of what the taught them was probably just stuff they taught in the circles anyway. No real reason she shouldn't have gone.

The fact that putting Bethany in the Circle places her in close proximity to a rapist isn't cause for alarm?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Well, the "victims" of this supposed state of fear are now imposing their own state of fear upon a much large percentage of the population who are terrified of people who are capable of setting them on fire with a thought and who have no restrictions beyond moral ones.

They're doing no such thing. The mages have done nothing to antagonize the non-mage population.

You know you should really just put a "most" in that sentence, since the way you frame the issue implies there is not a single mage who antagonizes non-mages, when we know that is blatently false.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

He was also a mage trained in the circle. So most of what the taught them was probably just stuff they taught in the circles anyway. No real reason she shouldn't have gone.

The fact that putting Bethany in the Circle places her in close proximity to a rapist isn't cause for alarm?

Anyone can be a rapist, so what exactly is the point you're trying to make with that statement? Other then blatent fear mongering of course.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Anyone can be a rapist, so what exactly is the point you're trying to make with that statement? Other then blatent fear mongering of course.

Probably that if Alrik tried something, she would not only have physical trouble defending herself (Templar vs. Mage) but Alrik could have her Tranquilized or even executed under color of law.

[Lord Raijin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Well that's definitely a reason for circles to be centres of learning just as wannabe surgeons have to go through years of professional qualification. It is not a reason for using circles as detention centres for life.

Raijin specifically mentioned that because Bethany could make it without an Harrowing or a Circle, everyone else could too.
Of course, I think that having Circles be nothing but centres of learning would be terribly innefective but that is a different discussion alltogether.

Let's not forget that Bethany was educated by Malcolm who, at leats in my eyes, seemed the most honorable, responsable and respect worthy apostate we've seen until now.

He was also a mage trained in the circle. So most of what the taught them was probably just stuff they taught in the circles anyway. No real reason she shouldn't have gone.

Flemeth wasn't trained by the Circle and look at the result that came from her daughter, Morrigan. Shes not an abomination and is well aware of her sorroundings. She is a powerful mage on top it off.

I can't possibly see her allowing some demon to possess her. Shes far too aggressive.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Plaintiff: I cannot build a bomb. I do not possess any knowledge in explosives.

Lacking the knowledge doesn't make you incapable. You are able to learn, so you possess the capacity.

You know what though? People who research how to build bombs get flagged. People in the military who know how to build bombs have records.

You would know, of course, being privy as you are to secret government and military records.

Does it stop any of those people from misusing bombs? No. Why? Too much freedom is actually the answer.

Are you saying we should arrest anyone who researches explosives?

No, but they should be under surveliance for it. With todays technology we can have them live in their homes comfortably while still keeping an eye on them.

But thedas doesn't have cameras or remote viewing capabilities, so the people need to be in an area they can be watched.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Why would I ever research explosives? I have no intent on using explosives.  You can assert till you're blue in the face that I could theoretically discover how to make explosives, but you cannot assert that I would suddenly choose to practice violence as a solution to real world problems.  And I won't ever have a profession that requires it.

Even the research I would do for literary purposes would bring me no closer to building real bombs - unless, perhaps, I was writing something specifically about a demolitions expert.

And no, to answer your question - because I value some level of freedom, I believe that risking the chance of bombings is worth not putting everyone into a police state in the event of future bombings.

However - my beliefs do not define the universe like it seems to for some people. Just because I value personal freedom, does not make me blind to the successes of controlled states.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:42 .

[Lord Raijin]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Anyone can be a rapist, so what exactly is the point you're trying to make with that statement? Other then blatent fear mongering of course.

Probably that if Alrik tried something, she would not only have physical trouble defending herself (Templar vs. Mage) but Alrik could have her Tranquilized or even executed under color of law.

I can't see Alrik executing poor Beth.... unless if he enjoys a cold stiff.