1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 décembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Those aren't the same incident, I don't think. Just because she did one questionable thing doesn't necessarily mean she had her hand in another.

[Hellion Rex]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Those aren't the same incident, I don't think. Just because she did one questionable thing doesn't necessarily mean she had her hand in another.

Act of Mercy was what we were talking about, right? If you turn over the mages to Thrask, he gives that line of dialogue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Those aren't the same incident, I don't think. Just because she did one questionable thing doesn't necessarily mean she had her hand in another.

Act of Mercy was what we were talking about, right? If you turn over the mages to Thrask, he gives that line of dialogue.

No. We are talking about a squad of Templars attacking a civilian in Lowtown. And what you are talking about is the execution of Apostates, which is fully within Meredith's authority.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Those aren't the same incident, I don't think. Just because she did one questionable thing doesn't necessarily mean she had her hand in another.

Act of Mercy was what we were talking about, right? If you turn over the mages to Thrask, he gives that line of dialogue.

No. We are talking about a squad of Templars attacking a civilian in Lowtown. And what you are talking about is the execution of Apostates, which is fully within Meredith's authority.

They were still entirely Circle mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Those aren't the same incident, I don't think. Just because she did one questionable thing doesn't necessarily mean she had her hand in another.

Act of Mercy was what we were talking about, right? If you turn over the mages to Thrask, he gives that line of dialogue.

No. We are talking about a squad of Templars attacking a civilian in Lowtown. And what you are talking about is the execution of Apostates, which is fully within Meredith's authority.

They were still entirely Circle mages.

No. The second thy chose to run away instead of being transfered to another Circle, they became Apostates.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

We do. The game specifically tells us that Meredith organized a group of zealots and appointed Mettin in charge so that they could go around Kirkwall and "purge" mage sympathizers.

No. The second thy chose to run away instead of being transfered to another Circle, they became Apostates.

When they've surrendered themselves to the Circle, that muddies the waters on whether to deem them apostate or Circle mage at that point. While it was within her power to do such a thing, it was hardly the best course of action and was needlessly cruel.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2013 - 12:16 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

I will stand by my claim that out of all the blood mages and abominations Anders claims were pushed into it, only one can be believed and that is Alain. And not only did his suffering have nothing to do with Meredith, he still knew better than to target innocent people or demand the absolution of the Circle.
This whole "Templars made me do it" is just one more way the mages use to avoid taking responsabilities for their actions.

Silfren already addressed how Meredith is definitely part of the problem for Alain. And I don't use the "Templars made me do it" thing for every mage, mind you. Only where it's appropriate, and it's less that they made them do it and more that they presented them with a situation where it was their only option.

I won't claim, for instance, that Jowan was forced by the Templars to use blood magic. I will say that he was led into it by Uldred, who manipulated his desire for more power (especially in regards to the Mage Warden) and used him as a sacrificial scapegoat in his bid for more power and prestige in the Circle, and that Jowan choosing to go through with it was his own decision.

He was not forced into it.

I would not say the Resolutionists were forced by the Templars to do what they did, nor would I say Tarohne was. Both freely chose to engage in such acts.

Huon, Evelina, Grace, every mage in Grace's group; those blood mages from the Mage Underground.

Huon was an Elven Mage in a Circle that has previously shown itself to have little regard for the well being of both groups. His mind was broken (those eyes certainly aren't natural for any mental state). He was literally dragged away from his wife in chains. So ultimately, the Templars do share part of the blame. I do believe he does as well, but a man clearly not in his right mind can't be said to be blamed for what he does, can he?

Evelina was not a Blood Mage, she was an Abomination. And she was formerly a Mage that fled the Blight and shielded many orphaned children from the Blight as they all made their way north to Kirkwall, where she voluntarily gave herself to the Circle -- asking only that her children be looked after by the Chantry. And what did the Templars do? Nothing. Not a damn thing. They didn't bring the matter to the Chantry, despite the fact the Chantry wants to do more for the children (their methods are rather skewed on how to achieve such a thing, but their intent was in the right place).

The lack of care for these people that became her surrogate family from people that are supposed to help out led her to feel both anger at the Templars and Chantry and a desire to give them a decent life, which coupled with the lack of grimoires allowed her to be possessed by not one but TWO demons -- as shown in battle. She was possessed by a Rage Demon and a Desire Demon.

We know she was trained at Kinloch Hold for 8 years, but whether she was Harrowed or not is unknown. We know that when she turned herself in, she was locked up as an apostate. I see the Templars as partially to blame for her situation, because all they had to do was go to the Chantry and say "Hey, these kids are orphans and were protected by a Mage from Ferelden. Can you help them out?"

The Chantry has the resources to do so.

If they had at least attempted to give those children a decent life by talking to the Chantry -- if for no other reason then practical concerns such as "Can be trained as Templars" -- then that'd be different. But they didn't.

Grace I already acknowledged as being a Blood mage, though it's iffy on when she became one. She did have six years to learn it after all, though IIRC didn't she say "I learned all he (Decimus) had to teach" in Act 3?. The only thing I would even think of blaming the Templars for is the whole grimoire thing, assuming she didn't freely give herself over to a Demon. If she was possessed not of her own volition, then the Templars did kinda contribute, though ultimately most of the blame does go to her for choosing to engage in such acts. But honestly? I think she gets the entire shebang, because I think she did give herself over voluntarily.

And were the mages in Grace's group blood mages? I can't recall, honestly. I'm certain they were normal mages.

And you still didn't address how the Templars did little to actually police the town. Gang of blood mage apostates in Hightown, they do nothing. Cult of Dwarves and Humans enthralled by a Desire Demon (not acting like a typical gang as well), they do nothing. (Tevinter) Slave Hunters being run by a mage, they do nothing.

Meredith may be paranoid but she is not one to plant evidence

Oh I disagree very much on that.

She suspected Orsino; and for good reasons; when the Champion assured
her he was not involved with Grace's group, she doesn't accept it but
she also don't tell Hawke to lie to the Grand Cleric. She just intends
to wait for Orsino to reveal his true self in time.

Her reasons' weren't particularly 'good' to suspect him of involvement. She's clearly not taking into account that by her squeezing the Mages harder and forbidding Orsino from properly doing his job, he's unable to fully take into account what goes on inside the Circle. With the balance of power so heavily slanted towards Meredith's favor, there are going to be a lot of obstacles in the way for Orsino to properly understand what's going on.

Any action he takes will be seen as suspicious. Calls a Mage to his office to understand what's going on? He's clearly planning in league with them. Wants to help Meredith? He's clearly just trying to pull the wool over her eyes so he can strike later.

Meredith believes that muddy boots are enough to cite "dark rituals" as being what's going on. That's.... actually REALLY far-fetched. She doesn't even seem to take into account that, hey, maybe some Templars are helping these mages of their own volition like say... as was the case with Huon, Evelina, and Emile? Nope, blood magic must be the reason for it because they're coming back with muddy boots. There are no other possible explanations. Contrast to Orsino, who merely suspects blood magic could be involved, which is a sight better.

And despite how certain she was of all this, she does not in any way go to Orsino for assistance in a proper diplomatic fashion. She demands answers -- which is not how the Circle is run. The FE and KC are supposed to work together, not be browbeaten and cowed into submission -- and assumes that because he doesn't have the specifics, he's not doing his job.

This despite the fact that he most assuredly IS doing his job, even though his power and authority in the Circle is diminished heavily. He wants to work with the Templars, but wants to know the specific parties involved because he doesn't want every mage to become a target.

And that's a perfectly valid fear because we've seen time and time again how the Templars of Kirkwall will take the actions of one bad apple as proof that the entire orchard is rotten. Worse still, he can't investigate on his own because should he go out, Meredith would use that as proof positive he's involved (and don't even try to deny she wouldn't if he did leave the Gallows, since he's now forbidden to do so).

He wants to know what's going on inside his Circle, but has to do so subtly lest he endanger all the lives he's responsible for. He knows nothing, but he wants to work with the Templars. Again, Grand Cleric Elthina cites him as a reasonable man. The fact that he tells Hawke to only interrupt if there is proof of something sinister -- i.e. blood magic -- shows that he doesn't want danger running amok.

Just because she doesn't tell Hawke to make up something for the Grand Cleric doesn't mean much, considering her own Knight-Captain also tells her that Orsino was not involved. As a result, it's less a matter of "She's not one to do this" and more a matter of "She can't succeed if she tried it". Hawke's word would conflict with Cullen's word, and it would become clear that something's wrong with what Elthina is being told. Cullen is not a pro-mage person at this point in time, so it wouldn't be as if say.... Thrask was the one saying such things.

And it is suspicious for him to agree to Meredith's search only after he has been to the Circle.

To you. The man's office is right next door to Meredith's. If his connections to Quentin were anywhere in there, the Templars could've easily looked around.

I'm saying that the demons in the Warden's Keep turned against the
Wardens that would have fought by their side despite being surrounded by
the King's forces and, therefore, there is no reason to believe the
demons in Kirkwall would prioritize killing the Templars before turning
on the mages.

How are a few dozen mook soldiers in the immediate vicinity that have never fought Demons before, have no abilities that can threaten them, and are inwardly thinking "Bring me my brown pants!" anywhere near comparable enough to what's going on in DAII where Hawke and company are by no means unnerved by the sight?

You don't ever see those Circle mage summoning and controlling Pride and
Desire Demons but, if these creatures that stand at the top of the
demonic hierarchy, somehow designed a plan that involved obeying mages,
why not pretend that they were being controlled as well?

Who's to say some of them weren't? That Pride Demon on the docks I mentioned could, for instance, be pretending to be controlled by the Blood Mage so that he could take control of her.

Some were controlling others, like the Desire Demon enthralling Mages and Templars, but others could very much be doing this.

You say that Avernus had to study the corners of the Fade just to draw glyphs and sigils to summon his demons. Then by that logic, these demons required the same summoning glyphs, otherwise how were they summoned? If Avernus is somehow evidence of demonic summoning by any mage period, then this is how it must be.

To make Meredith suffer. What would affect her more? Saying "You were
right all along, Meredith. I am a blood mage" or "If you hadn't done
anything, I never would have used blood magic."

Meredith doesn't give a damn what people say to her. She's called Iron Lady by Varric for a reason. So Orsino's not going to waste his breath saying something he knows won't affect her. The fact that in private, she keeps up this Iron Lady mentality tells us that she's ALWAYS that way.

MisterJB wrote...
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

My opinion? Since Quentin's entire goal was to bring back his dead wife, I believe Orsino was working with the man as a means to research true resurrection and Quentin sent him piecemeal information that led Orsino to believe he was making progress, until he eventually found out what he was truly doing and how far off his rocker Quentin was.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think we ever get solid confirmation that the death squads were sanctioned by Meredith, or simply run by overzealous Templars.

 Thrask said, "Meredith had three executed at random," so she knew full well what was happening.

Those aren't the same incident, I don't think. Just because she did one questionable thing doesn't necessarily mean she had her hand in another.

Act of Mercy was what we were talking about, right? If you turn over the mages to Thrask, he gives that line of dialogue.

No. We are talking about a squad of Templars attacking a civilian in Lowtown. And what you are talking about is the execution of Apostates, which is fully within Meredith's authority.

Anders became an apostate not once but 7 times and Knight Commander Greagoir didn't execute him nor requested to have him undergo the R.o.T. The only harsh punishment he recieved for his escape attempts was to live in solitary confindment for a year, thats all.

Meredith recieves a sick pleasure by watching mages die in her custody, she is rather twisted even without idol sword. She very much has the mentality of Kim Jong Un.

No wonder theirs so many blood mages in Kirkwall. She did a great job creating a war against the mages.

[TEWR]

Anders became an apostate not once but 7 times and Knight Commander Greagoir didn't execute him nor requested to have him undergo the R.o.T. The only harsh punishment he recieved for his escape attempts was to live in solitary confindment for a year, thats all.

Two things:

1) Irving's word played a large part in why Gregoir didn't do anything.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Anders became an apostate not once but 7 times and Knight Commander Greagoir didn't execute him nor requested to have him undergo the R.o.T. The only harsh punishment he recieved for his escape attempts was to live in solitary confindment for a year, thats all.

Meredith recieves a sick pleasure by watching mages die in her custody, she is rather twisted even without idol sword. She very much has the mentality of Kim Jong Un.

No wonder theirs so many blood mages in Kirkwall. She did a great job creating a war against the mages.

I don't think she had took sick pleasure out of it. She was doing her duty, which I think is infinitely more dangerous. Plus, she's nowhere Kim Jong Un at all. However, I do believe that she was married to her duty much more than she should have been. But then again, watching your sister kill so many people is bound to make one a very thorough individual.

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders became an apostate not once but 7 times and Knight Commander Greagoir didn't execute him nor requested to have him undergo the R.o.T. The only harsh punishment he recieved for his escape attempts was to live in solitary confindment for a year, thats all.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

But even still, that is a very tame punishment compared to actual death.

[TEWR]

Arguable. Solitary confinement for prolonged periods of time has actually broken peoples' mental states IIRC in the real world.

[EmperorSahlertz]

@TEWR You are basing an aweful lot upon your speculation that Grimoires somehow play a role in a mage's mental defenses against demons. I would say that the notion that the grimoires somehow plays a role in demonic possession defense, seems kinda silly. If a mage is about to be possessed, he does not have time to open his book, flip to the correct page and read up on defensive skills.
It seems far more likely that the grimoires are simply a popular past time for the mages. They can write their own or read others, and it expands their knoweldge about magic in general. But all magical defenses against demonic possession was something they learned years ago, before their Harrowing.

I'd also say that no one ever forces the mages to use Blood Magic. Huon made a concious choice. Grace made a concious choice. Alian did. Orsino did. All of them did.

Also worth pointing out is that the CIRCLE was the one to take in Evelina without aiding the children. The Chantry on the other hand, had ever since act 1 attempted to help the orphans living in the Undercity, but the orphans had been unwilling to accept the help.

And you don't think you can blame Huon of anything, under plead of insanity, yet you continuosly blame Meredith. So which is it? Can an insane person be held responsible or not?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd also say that no one ever forces the mages to use Blood Magic. Huon made a concious choice. Grace made a concious choice. Alian did. Orsino did. All of them did.

Also worth pointing out is that the CIRCLE was the one to take in Evelina without aiding the children. The Chantry on the other hand, had ever since act 1 attempted to help the orphans living in the Undercity, but the orphans had been unwilling to accept the help.

And you don't think you can blame Huon of anything, under plead of insanity, yet you continuosly blame Meredith. So which is it? Can an insane person be held responsible or not?

Both are and should be held responsible. Huon was about a hop, skip, and a jump from becoming an abomination, if he wasn't there already. I mean for God's sake we watched him murder his wife to fuel his power. Blood magic hardly gives one a foolproof insanity defense. Meredith's fixation on her duty was accelerated by the red lyrium, but I don't think she actually snapped until the very end, when she starts seeing her fellow templars as being enthralled, during the final battlte.

[TEWR]

And you don't think you can blame Huon of anything, under plead of insanity, yet you continuosly blame Meredith. So which is it? Can an insane person be held responsible or not?

Hmm, misspoke. Apologies. I had lost the original post due to Opera closing out on me and had to type from memory. I meant to say I wanted to, but wasn't sure if I would and should. Apologies if it seems like goalpost shifting.

Both should be held accountable, but the Templars did contribute to his situation. A lot.

You are basing an aweful lot upon your speculation that Grimoires somehow play a role in a mage's mental defenses against demons

Given that a mage was the one who said that grimoires are a tool used by mages to help their defense against Demons... why wouldn't I use that? It's not speculation.

Also worth pointing out is that the CIRCLE was the one to take in Evelina without aiding the children. The Chantry on the other hand, had ever since act 1 attempted to help the orphans living in the Undercity, but the orphans had been unwilling to accept the help.

I... was never blaming the Chantry for her situation...

I was blaming the Templars. The Templars were the ones who locked her away as an apostate.

That said, just because children in Darktown deny the Chantry's help -- that's all the priests say, children, of which the Blight brought droves more then just Evelina's -- doesn't mean they were, in fact, Evelina's orphans she adopted.

Rather, given Walter and Cricket's dialogue IIRC, they weren't even being offered any sort of help. In Act 2, Evelina was still with them helping them to survive.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Huon was an Elven Mage in a Circle that has previously shown itself to have little regard for the well being of both groups. His mind was broken (those eyes certainly aren't natural for any mental state). He was literally dragged away from his wife in chains. So ultimately, the Templars do share part of the blame. I do believe he does as well, but a man clearly not in his right mind can't be said to be blamed for what he does, can he?

And dragging you in chains is enough bo break your mind?

Either he was already insane (in which case he was a danger to everyone) or he was so unstable that being taken compeltley broke him (which again makes him a danger to everyone.)

And you still didn't address how the Templars did little to actually police the town. Gang of blood mage apostates in Hightown, they do nothing. Cult of Dwarves and Humans enthralled by a Desire Demon (not acting like a typical gang as well), they do nothing. (Tevinter) Slave Hunters being run by a mage, they do nothing.

Every area in Kirkwall and around is teeming with raining zombies/mages/bandits.
Not even Hawke and hte city guard can keep the streets cleared

And despite how certain she was of all this, she does not in any way go to Orsino for assistance in a proper diplomatic fashion. She demands answers -- which is not how the Circle is run. The FE and KC are supposed to work together, not be browbeaten and cowed into submission -- and assumes that because he doesn't have the specifics, he's not doing his job.

Actually, she has every right ot demand answers. Security is her responsiblity.

And it is suspicious for him to agree to Meredith's search only after he has been to the Circle.

To you. The man's office is right next door to Meredith's. If his connections to Quentin were anywhere in there, the Templars could've easily looked around.

Then why didnt' they?
Why does searching the rooms require a permission from the Grand Cleric?

MisterJB wrote...
And, of course, why would he read on blood magic if he has no intention of practicing it?

My opinion? Since Quentin's entire goal was to bring back his dead wife, I believe Orsino was working with the man as a means to research true resurrection and Quentin sent him piecemeal information that led Orsino to believe he was making progress, until he eventually found out what he was truly doing and how far off his rocker Quentin was.

Orsino was stupid, period.
Quentin was looking into somethnig that defies the cardinal rules of magic - and we all know what happened the last time people tried to to break those rules. Orsino can say a million times he didn't know what Quentin was up to or how questionable the research was. I'm not buying it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 décembre 2013 - 08:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Meredith recieves a sick pleasure by watching mages die in her custody, she is rather twisted even without idol sword. She very much has the mentality of Kim Jong Un.

Comeptlely wrong.
This silly idea that Meredith hates mages and loves to watch them suffer is redicolous.

She is a creature of duty. EVerything she does she does to protect the people of Kirkwall, not out of hatered for mages. She sez so herself.
Even at the end, she still has sympathy for mages (listen to her dialogue with Orsino).

"It breaks my heart to do it, but we must be vigilant."

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Meredith recieves a sick pleasure by watching mages die in her custody, she is rather twisted even without idol sword. She very much has the mentality of Kim Jong Un.

Comeptlely wrong.
This silly idea that Meredith hates mages and loves to watch them suffer is redicolous.

She is a creature of duty. EVerything she does she does to protect the people of Kirkwall, not out of hatered for mages. She sez so herself.
Even at the end, she still has sympathy for mages (listen to her dialogue with Orsino).

"It breaks my heart to do it, but we must be vigilant."

I would say that she sees her duty in a much broader context, that of protecting the world from magical abuse. She seems to be more concerned with the bigger picture than just Kirkwall's situation alone.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And you don't think you can blame Huon of anything, under plead of insanity, yet you continuosly blame Meredith. So which is it? Can an insane person be held responsible or not?

Both should be held accountable, but the Templars did contribute to his situation. A lot. 

Well, if you want to lay blame at the Templars, then I will go one step further and blame the chemical reactions within Huon's brain of making him into the mosnter he was. How dare they!

In all seriousness, HUON is the only person who holds any blame in the Huon situation.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You are basing an aweful lot upon your speculation that Grimoires somehow play a role in a mage's mental defenses against demons

Given that a mage was the one who said that grimoires are a tool used by mages to help their defense against Demons... why wouldn't I use that? It's not speculation.

A single line, in an ambient dialogue is the first and ONLY time we eer hear about Grimoires being any sort of defense agaisnt demons. I am sorry but I do not take that as solid proof. Especially considering that another such ambient dialogue (or is it monolgue since we can't respond? Anyhoo....) has a mage state that the Gallows really aren't all that bad. Obviosuly both of these are subjective opinions of the mages in question. Especially since we see proof to the contrary, or lack proof to support their statements.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also worth pointing out is that the CIRCLE was the one to take in Evelina without aiding the children. The Chantry on the other hand, had ever since act 1 attempted to help the orphans living in the Undercity, but the orphans had been unwilling to accept the help.

I... was never blaming the Chantry for her situation...

I was blaming the Templars. The Templars were the ones who locked her away as an apostate.

That said, just because children in Darktown deny the Chantry's help -- that's all the priests say, children, of which the Blight brought droves more then just Evelina's -- doesn't mean they were, in fact, Evelina's orphans she adopted.

Rather, given Walter and Cricket's dialogue IIRC, they weren't even being offered any sort of help. In Act 2, Evelina was still with them helping them to survive.

No, the CIRCLE were the ones who locked her away as an Apostate. She very specifically says she went to the Circle, but that THEY lcoked her away and ignored the children.
Ever since act 1 the Chantry sisters mention the orphans in Darktown and how they wish that they wish the children would just accept the aid the Chantry offers. And while true it might not be Evelina's orphans specifically, but it does serve to prove that the Chantry DID offer aid to orphans, and that the children could have just gone there for help.

[Lord Raijin]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders became an apostate not once but 7 times and Knight Commander Greagoir didn't execute him nor requested to have him undergo the R.o.T. The only harsh punishment he recieved for his escape attempts was to live in solitary confindment for a year, thats all.

Two things:

1) Irving's word played a large part in why Gregoir didn't do anything.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

1. It seems to be that way in Fereldens Circle tower, but once Anders becames an apostate I firmly believe that Greagoir's words would become far greater regarding to the punishment, since Chantries laws were broken, and that it is he that needs to enforce the laws of the Chantry as the Knight-Commander.

2. Solitary confindment for a year could very well be the worst thing, but it seems as if R.o.T is by far worst, and many of the mages prefer death over being tranquil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Two things:

1) Irving's word played a large part in why Gregoir didn't do anything.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

1. It seems to be that way in Fereldens Circle tower, but once Anders becames an apostate I firmly believe that Greagoir's words would become far greater regarding to the punishment, since Chantries laws were broken, and that it is he that needs to enforce the laws of the Chantry as the Knight-Commander.

2. Solitary confindment for a year could very well be the worst thing, but it seems as if R.o.T is by far worst, and many of the mages prefer death over being tranquil.

Lucky for Anders he was a Harrowed mage, and therefore he could not by law be made Tranquil. IIRC Anders gave up willingly every time the Templars caught up to him. No doubt that played a part in why they were so lenient with him. It was only after the 7th escape that they punished him as severely as a year in solitary.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Two things:

1) Irving's word played a large part in why Gregoir didn't do anything.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

1. It seems to be that way in Fereldens Circle tower, but once Anders becames an apostate I firmly believe that Greagoir's words would become far greater regarding to the punishment, since Chantries laws were broken, and that it is he that needs to enforce the laws of the Chantry as the Knight-Commander.

2. Solitary confindment for a year could very well be the worst thing, but it seems as if R.o.T is by far worst, and many of the mages prefer death over being tranquil.

Lucky for Anders he was a Harrowed mage, and therefore he could not by law be made Tranquil. IIRC Anders gave up willingly every time the Templars caught up to him. No doubt that played a part in why they were so lenient with him. It was only after the 7th escape that they punished him as severely as a year in solitary.

Sixth time, actually.  /nitpick.  But say rather that lucky for Anders, he was in a land where the laws regarding Tranquility were upheld.

Looks like Anders gave himself up willingly after his attempt that got him to Amaranthine, but he'll tell you that one of the Templars kicked him awake, as I recall.  If lenient is defined as "don't make an excuse just to kill you on the spot" sure, but there's no indication that they were exactly gentle.  But there's a codex that indicates that the leniency against him was due to Irving's insistence. 

As for solitary confinement, I don't think Tranquil can be described as a worse punishment in the same sense here.  Solitary confinement IS a terrible thing to do to a person, but more than the cruelty of the punishment itself is the psychological damage it can inflict.  Seems like a guaranteed method of turning a mage into a raging maniac, all-too-eager to embrace the first demon that shows up.  Any templar who sanctions that as appropriate needs a thorough talking to, and they certainly are not someone who should be in a position of authority and power. 

Modifié par Silfren, 13 décembre 2013 - 04:30 .

[Vandicus]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Two things:

1) Irving's word played a large part in why Gregoir didn't do anything.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

1. It seems to be that way in Fereldens Circle tower, but once Anders becames an apostate I firmly believe that Greagoir's words would become far greater regarding to the punishment, since Chantries laws were broken, and that it is he that needs to enforce the laws of the Chantry as the Knight-Commander.

2. Solitary confindment for a year could very well be the worst thing, but it seems as if R.o.T is by far worst, and many of the mages prefer death over being tranquil.

Lucky for Anders he was a Harrowed mage, and therefore he could not by law be made Tranquil. IIRC Anders gave up willingly every time the Templars caught up to him. No doubt that played a part in why they were so lenient with him. It was only after the 7th escape that they punished him as severely as a year in solitary.

Sixth time, actually.  /nitpick.  But say rather that lucky for Anders, he was in a land where the laws regarding Tranquility were upheld.

Looks like Anders gave himself up willingly after his attempt that got him to Amaranthine, but he'll tell you that one of the Templars kicked him awake, as I recall.  If lenient is defined as "don't make an excuse just to kill you on the spot" sure, but there's no indication that they were exactly gentle.  But there's a codex that indicates that the leniency against him was due to Irving's insistence. 

As for solitary confinement, I don't think Tranquil can be described as a worse punishment in the same sense here.  Solitary confinement IS a terrible thing to do to a person, but more than the cruelty of the punishment itself is the psychological damage it can inflict.  Seems like a guaranteed method of turning a mage into a raging maniac, all-too-eager to embrace the first demon that shows up.  Any templar who sanctions that as appropriate needs a thorough talking to, and they certainly are not someone who should be in a position of authority and power. 

Considering that the people in Thedas are probably not at all aware of this effect resulting from solitary confinement, who can blame them for using it? Sure its a really really counterproductive method, but they don't know that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Two things:

1) Irving's word played a large part in why Gregoir didn't do anything.

2) Solitary confinement for a year is still one of the worst things a person can receive.

1. It seems to be that way in Fereldens Circle tower, but once Anders becames an apostate I firmly believe that Greagoir's words would become far greater regarding to the punishment, since Chantries laws were broken, and that it is he that needs to enforce the laws of the Chantry as the Knight-Commander.

2. Solitary confindment for a year could very well be the worst thing, but it seems as if R.o.T is by far worst, and many of the mages prefer death over being tranquil.

Lucky for Anders he was a Harrowed mage, and therefore he could not by law be made Tranquil. IIRC Anders gave up willingly every time the Templars caught up to him. No doubt that played a part in why they were so lenient with him. It was only after the 7th escape that they punished him as severely as a year in solitary.

Sixth time, actually.  /nitpick.  But say rather that lucky for Anders, he was in a land where the laws regarding Tranquility were upheld.

Looks like Anders gave himself up willingly after his attempt that got him to Amaranthine, but he'll tell you that one of the Templars kicked him awake, as I recall.  If lenient is defined as "don't make an excuse just to kill you on the spot" sure, but there's no indication that they were exactly gentle.  But there's a codex that indicates that the leniency against him was due to Irving's insistence. 

As for solitary confinement, I don't think Tranquil can be described as a worse punishment in the same sense here.  Solitary confinement IS a terrible thing to do to a person, but more than the cruelty of the punishment itself is the psychological damage it can inflict.  Seems like a guaranteed method of turning a mage into a raging maniac, all-too-eager to embrace the first demon that shows up.  Any templar who sanctions that as appropriate needs a thorough talking to, and they certainly are not someone who should be in a position of authority and power. 

After the 6th time I don't think the Templars had any cause to be gentle with Anders. He was obviously not gonna play ball, and he was at best a nuisance for the Templars. The Templars being told to go colelct him would probably hate the job. After all it is demoralizing to be told to dig a hole for several days, only for on the 5th day witness the whole be filled again.

Vandicus wrote...

Considering that the people in Thedas are probably not at all aware of this effect resulting from solitary confinement, who can blame them for using it? Sure its a really really counterproductive method, but they don't know that.

It would only be counter-productive if it wasn't what the Templars had hoped for. My guess is that the Templars were more than a little tired of having to colelct Anders time and again, especially since he had proven that he would forever be a drain on the Circle and the Templars. However the law and the First Enchanter was preventing them from executing Anders.