1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Actually we have no idea what the Divine's official stance is on Circles being free of Chantry control. What she sanctioned was a metting that would discuss the cure for Tranquility. This meeting was hijacked by Fiona and Adrian and quickly took a direction that the Divine had not intended.
And initially the Divine had allowed the mages to meet and discuss what changes they would like to see in the Circle system. Peaceful change (this meeting was also interrupted though..).
And whatever the mages might have come up with, would of course ahve to be acknoweldge and approved by the Chantry before tehy could come to effect, which means that the mages would ahve to be reasonable in their demands. Again avoiding bloodshed. But the mages would have none of it.
Not that I think the Templars would ahve been jumping for joy about it either, but they would probably not ahve left the Chantry over it, nor begun a continent spanning war about it. They would howeer do so, if the mages were ever to leave the Chantry completely. Which the mages chose to do. So the Templars did too (admittedly the fact that the Divine betrayed them also played a role in the decission making).

The second meeting was interrupted by who? If you're going to point out who interrupted the first meeting why didn't you mention who interrupted the second?

Why do the mages demands have to be acknowledge by the chantry? Did people in ancient times wait for the king to acknowledge their rebellion before they began fighting back? Who should the demands be reasonable according to? What standards are you using to determine what would be reasonable demands?

You've mentioned that the mages should be grateful that they shouldn't be treated more harshly.  Why shouldn't the templars be grateful that all the mages want is their freedom instead of the heads of those who oppressed them and their families? After all. It seems many rebellions also resulted in the royal families or families of leaders being executed even if they were children.

If the mages are truly as dangerous as some seem to believe they are. Nuclear weapons with a sense of self. Shouldn't the templars be grateful that the mages aren't being even more destructive then they already are?

Modifié par Inprea, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:26 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Yes but whereas the mages of Kirkwall actually had valid complaints regarding how certain Templars; like Alrik; were not respecting the laws of the Circle, much of the rethoric employed by the mages in that conclave was based on the larger principle of freedom. Fiona gets downright self-rigtheous when she says that mages are done waiting for "the right thing" to be done.
Because she, of all people, has obviously discerned what is the right thing in this complex debate of freedom for some vs security for all.

Honestly, it seems to me there is a double standard here. Meredith is often deemed unfit to be a Knight-Commander because of how her sister killer her family plus over 70 people but Fiona's; who was raped by a non-mage; ability to be the Grand Enchanter is never brought into question.

Part of the issue is a lack of information on our end. We have only been exposed to 3 Circles, out of 14-15 in the White end of Thedas: Gallows, White Spire, and Kinloch Hold. 4, if you wantto include that Starkhaven bunch. We lack a clear picture of the situation and power struggles between other templars and mages within their respective Circles. So I hesistate to answer your first point because we lack a clearer picture.

As for the second point, what you label as a "double standard", if you ignore Raijin, I don't think I have seen anyone say Meredith is unfit because of her history. If anything, I think her experiences made her good at her duty and job. Perhaps a little too good, but that's another topic on its own.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

A bit of a generalization, no?

Exageration promotes comprehension.

It can harm as well as heal. Tis a double edged sword.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

As for the second point, what you label as a "double standard", if you ignore Raijin, I don't think I have seen anyone say Meredith is unfit because of her history. If anything, I think her experiences made her good at her duty and job. Perhaps a little too good, but that's another topic on its own.

Several of us have said Meredith wasn't fit because of her past, actually.  I'm one of them, and I stand by it.  Someone who develops such an extremist position against mages is absolutely not fit to be in a position of power and authority over them.  After all, at least in theory, the Knight Commander's job isn't to hate mages and oppress them, it's to guard and protect--you know, to uphold their rights even while you keep them from hurting others; you don't put someone who loathes and despises mages and sees them as nothing BUT potential monsters and then get to act surprised when that same person blithely disregards the fact that mages are being illegally Tranquiled, raped, etc.

I don't see any comparisons whatsoever between Meredith and Fiona, though.  Fiona is not shown anywhere to have a blanket hatred for all people who are not mages.  It's a false equivalency to say that if we think the one unfit, we should see the other one as unfit, too. 

Modifié par Silfren, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:35 .

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
Yes but whereas the mages of Kirkwall actually had valid complaints regarding how certain Templars; like Alrik; were not respecting the laws of the Circle, much of the rethoric employed by the mages in that conclave was based on the larger principle of freedom. Fiona gets downright self-rigtheous when she says that mages are done waiting for "the right thing" to be done.
Because she, of all people, has obviously discerned what is the right thing in this complex debate of freedom for some vs security for all. Honestly, it seems to me there is a double standard here. Meredith is often deemed unfit to be a Knight-Commander because of how her sister killer her family plus over 70 people but Fiona's; who was raped by a non-mage; ability to be the Grand Enchanter is never brought into question.

I wrote a mage who questions just that.

Kamilah: [airly] ...I respect her as a mage and as a Grey Warden, but not as an authority. And let it be known, I will not have my reputation slandered by an elf whose history - in the moment history stooped to notice her - is the fabric of machinations against the order of our Circle. The Circle which not only received her as a penniless Orlesian sex slave but now heaps honors on her head.

Aequitarian Enchanter: [concerned] Smearing the honor of our Grand Enchanter may not gain you any support. A tough background may be black sin in the Nevarran court but it is of little consideration in our Circle meritocracy. I understand you and Fiona have deep-seated philosophical and personal differences but you should proceed with politics in a decent fashion.

Kamilah: Is that who we truly want representing us? A woman with such a horrid upbringing she cannot be anything but relentlessly cynical in her view of the world? It obviously interferes with her ability to separate passion from reason. Is it snobbery on my part to point that out? To acknowledge that as a Warden she is more fairytale warrior than mage-- and thus inclined to ignore reality and the weakness of her position? The Wardens are now the protectors of mankind-- heroes riding high after the defeat of the fifth blight. She struts about with a similar air as a would-be savior of her charges from the big bad templars. And as a warrior she is also thus inclined to use a blunt hammer of force and violence to solve Circle issues than the preferred approach of life saving finesse.

Aequitarian Enchanter: I suppose that is fair criticism. It does not always sound so in how it leaves you lips but fair enough.

Kamilah: In good humor just the other evening I civilly received the Grand Enchanter. She repeats over and over again how there is no use in compromising with the templar order and how we should separate now from the chantry. Her vehemence brought the little elf up to such a degree of heat and evanescence, I thought she was going to have a fit. I tell her calmly that I disagree with nearly everything she is saying. She is obviously completely ignorant about the situation-- the templars, and chantry, and everyone else. Never in my life have I heard a woman talk more like a fool. I will take no more notice of her. She is a dangerous woman not to be trusted with the reigns of government.

[...]

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:08 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

Funnily enough, I read that same passage, and I didn't believe for an instant he was genuine in his request to wait for a less tumultuous political climate.  Rather, I think he was just trying to stall for time.  I seriously doubt he meant that even slightly: he would have come up with ANY excuse, at ANY time, to insist on a reason to put off the news about Tranquility being curable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

The second meeting was interrupted by who? If you're going to point out who interrupted the first meeting why didn't you mention who interrupted the second?

I was actually referring to the first meeting (chronologically), which as I recall it, was interrupted because a murderer was on the loose in the White Tower. As I recall that was the only meeting that was actually about improvements to the Circle system, the second meeting was about the cure for Tranquility.

Inprea wrote...

Why do the mages demands have to be acknowledge by the chantry? Did people in ancient times wait for the king to acknowledge their rebellion before they began fighting back? Who should the demands be reasonable according to? What standards are you using to determine what would be reasonable demands?

The mages' demands has to be acknoweldged by the Chantry if they want a peaceful negotiation to happen. My ENTIRE point was that since the mages were offered a way to avoid bloodhsed and rebellion, that I think they should have taken that chance. So that is why the Chantry kinda needed to be kept in the loop on the mages' ideas on improvements.
And reasonable demands would be demands that the Chantry would be willing and able to support. And I am basing this entirely on in-world material available to all of us.

And since you are using that passive aggressive tone with me, why don't you grow some backbone and just say it?

Inprea wrote...

You've mentioned that the mages should be grateful that they shouldn't be treated more harshly.  Why shouldn't the templars be grateful that all the mages want is their freedom instead of the heads of those who oppressed them and their families? After all. It seems many rebellions also resulted in the royal families or families of leaders being executed even if they were children.

Huh? Why should the Templars be grateful that the mages seek to rebel? What could the Templars possibly gain from it? As it were the Templars were at the tippytop of the food chain in both the Chantry and the Circle, they held the power. Why on sweet mother earth, should the Templars be glad that the Circle seeks rebellion?? And I am sure that if the amges actually don't target Templar families, that the Templars would be grateful about that. Are you even being serious in those questions anymore? Because honestly they appear asinine....

Inprea wrote...

If the mages are truly as dangerous as some seem to believe they are. Nuclear weapons with a sense of self. Shouldn't the templars be grateful that the mages aren't being even more destructive then they already are?

The nuclear weapon comparison is largely an exageration used to illustrate a point. And if the mages aren't destructive in the comming war, then I am purty sure that the Templars will be rather happy about it actually.

Aaaaand that pretty much confirms it. You are just being willfully obtuse now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

Funnily enough, I read that same passage, and I didn't believe for an instant he was genuine in his request to wait for a less tumultuous political climate.  Rather, I think he was just trying to stall for time.  I seriously doubt he meant that even slightly: he would have come up with ANY excuse, at ANY time, to insist on a reason to put off the news about Tranquility being curable.

Then it wouldn't make much sense for him to keep the research data around.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Meredith shows two thing how incompetent templars are in doing their job her idiocy lead to almost destruction of city because she coulnd't control mages second thing is that shows that if mages will be free world quickly will burn because power hungry mages and abominations. 

Mages can't be controled now we know that only way to stop them from destruction of the world is killing them.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

Funnily enough, I read that same passage, and I didn't believe for an instant he was genuine in his request to wait for a less tumultuous political climate.  Rather, I think he was just trying to stall for time.  I seriously doubt he meant that even slightly: he would have come up with ANY excuse, at ANY time, to insist on a reason to put off the news about Tranquility being curable.

Ditto. He seemed more scared and off balance to me. He knew that the minute the news hit, his whole world would come crumbling down, which it did.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

Funnily enough, I read that same passage, and I didn't believe for an instant he was genuine in his request to wait for a less tumultuous political climate.  Rather, I think he was just trying to stall for time.  I seriously doubt he meant that even slightly: he would have come up with ANY excuse, at ANY time, to insist on a reason to put off the news about Tranquility being curable.

Then it wouldn't make much sense for him to keep the research data around.

He was all ready to axe Pharamond again for his actions.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Part of the issue is a lack of information on our end. We have only been exposed to 3 Circles, out of 14-15 in the White end of Thedas: Gallows, White Spire, and Kinloch Hold. 4, if you wantto include that Starkhaven bunch. We lack a clear picture of the situation and power struggles between other templars and mages within their respective Circles. So I hesistate to answer your first point because we lack a clearer picture.

I guess my point would be that mages are also capable of diminishing the complexity of the argument to the point where there is a clearly defined right and wrong.

As for the second point, what you label as a "double standard", if you ignore Raijin, I don't think I have seen anyone say Meredith is unfit because of her history.

It has been done a fair amount of times in the past. Trust me.

If anything, I think her experiences made her good at her duty and job

That's a refreshing attitude.
If I haven't said it before, it's good to have some sensible pro-mages around.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The Qunari have the right idea when it comes to mages, they don't suffer as many blood mages & abominations as the chantry circles do.

Modifié par Threat300, 13 décembre 2013 - 10:52 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

Funnily enough, I read that same passage, and I didn't believe for an instant he was genuine in his request to wait for a less tumultuous political climate.  Rather, I think he was just trying to stall for time.  I seriously doubt he meant that even slightly: he would have come up with ANY excuse, at ANY time, to insist on a reason to put off the news about Tranquility being curable.

Then it wouldn't make much sense for him to keep the research data around.

He was all ready to axe Pharamond again for his actions.

As I recall, all he wanted was for Pharamond to be made Tranquil again.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Threat300 wrote...

The Qunari have the right idea when it comes to mages, they don't suffer as many blood mages & abominations as the chantry circles doo.

Well we don't even seen their country but da redemption shows that they don't do good job as well.Mages can't be controled because they are unstable bomb that can explode at every moment they need to be defused.
 

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Several of us have said Meredith wasn't fit because of her past, actually.  I'm one of them, and I stand by it.  Someone who develops such an extremist position against mages is absolutely not fit to be in a position of power and authority over them.  After all, at least in theory, the Knight Commander's job isn't to hate mages and oppress them, it's to guard and protect--you know, to uphold their rights even while you keep them from hurting others; you don't put someone who loathes and despises mages and sees them as nothing BUT potential monsters and then get to act surprised when that same person blithely disregards the fact that mages are being illegally Tranquiled, raped, etc.

I don't see any comparisons whatsoever between Meredith and Fiona, though.  Fiona is not shown anywhere to have a blanket hatred for all people who are not mages.  It's a false equivalency to say that if we think the one unfit, we should see the other one as unfit, too. 

It is very much an valid equivalency.
First of all, claiming that Meredith is unsuitable for her position because of her past and claiming the same because of her actions is an entirely different thing.
If you oppose Meredith being the KC because her past experiences with mages can lead to her becoming overly antagonistic towards them, then you must apply the same standard to Fiona and be against her being the GE because her past experiences with non-mages can lead to her becoming overly antagonistic towards them.

If you then wish to claim that Meredith's potential for hatred manifested while Fiona's didn't, then do so but realize that that is an entirely different question.
And I will contest the notion Meredith hated mages or that she and Fiona are very different.
Meredith did not hate mages per principle; she believed that compromise with them was impossible and that she had to do whatever it took to protect the people of Kirkwall which is not so different from Fiona's belief that compromise with non-mages is impossible and than mages must to whatever it takes to secure their freedom and safety.
Plus, Fiona's actions were much worse than Meredith because this war will birth horrors that will put to shame anything that ever happened in Kirkwall's Circle as wars are wanton to do.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:02 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

MisterJB wrote...

If anything, I think her experiences made her good at her duty and job

That's a refreshing attitude.
If I haven't said it before, it's good to have some sensible pro-mages around.

Yeah considering that she destroyed city with mages , abomnations were were running around when she was in charge and well she was fanatical insane bi*** that very sensible that she was doing her job correctly 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The Qunari have the right idea when it comes to mages, they don't suffer as many blood mages & abominations as the chantry circles doo.

Well we don't even seen their country but da redemption shows that they don't do good job as well.Mages can't be controled because they are unstable bomb that can explode at every moment they need to be defused.
 

Their not as soft on magic as the chantry is though, the mages should be grateful they have a roof to shelter them & food to eat instead of crying about not having enough freedom.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Threat300 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

The Qunari have the right idea when it comes to mages, they don't suffer as many blood mages & abominations as the chantry circles doo.

Well we don't even seen their country but da redemption shows that they don't do good job as well.Mages can't be controled because they are unstable bomb that can explode at every moment they need to be defused.
 

Their not as soft on magic as the chantry is though, the mages should be grateful they have a roof to shelter them & food to eat instead of crying about not having enough freedom.

I can provide you both but you will be my slave i have no problem with it count that you will agree and you will be grateful for my proposition.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:07 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lambert was willing to introduce the cure for Tranquility in a less tumultous political climate. He was not opposed to change. he just didn't want the entire system falling apart around his ears, because some mage didn't get his third meal that day..

Funnily enough, I read that same passage, and I didn't believe for an instant he was genuine in his request to wait for a less tumultuous political climate.  Rather, I think he was just trying to stall for time.  I seriously doubt he meant that even slightly: he would have come up with ANY excuse, at ANY time, to insist on a reason to put off the news about Tranquility being curable.

Then it wouldn't make much sense for him to keep the research data around.

He was all ready to axe Pharamond again for his actions.

As I recall, all he wanted was for Pharamond to be made Tranquil again.

“Execute them,” he growled. “Execute them all. This flies in the face of everything the Chantry stands for, a direct challenge to our authority!”

[EmperorSahlertz]

Isn't that from when the Mages have already discussed open rebellion, and Lambert have taken all the First Enchanters prisoner?

[Lazy Jer]

Well keep in mind that the reason why demons possess mages and the dead is because they want to get out of the fade and into the real world. Possession wouldn't be a problem if demons stayed in the Fade and didn't want to leave. I think you all know where I'm going with this. The Fade needs a bowling alley.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isn't that from when the Mages have already discussed open rebellion, and Lambert have taken all the First Enchanters prisoner?

No, it is during the audience with the Divine.

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Inprea wrote...

The second meeting was interrupted by who? If you're going to point out who interrupted the first meeting why didn't you mention who interrupted the second?

I was actually referring to the first meeting (chronologically), which as I recall it, was interrupted because a murderer was on the loose in the White Tower. As I recall that was the only meeting that was actually about improvements to the Circle system, the second meeting was about the cure for Tranquility.

Inprea wrote...

Why do the mages demands have to be acknowledge by the chantry? Did people in ancient times wait for the king to acknowledge their rebellion before they began fighting back? Who should the demands be reasonable according to? What standards are you using to determine what would be reasonable demands?

The mages' demands has to be acknoweldged by the Chantry if they want a peaceful negotiation to happen. My ENTIRE point was that since the mages were offered a way to avoid bloodhsed and rebellion, that I think they should have taken that chance. So that is why the Chantry kinda needed to be kept in the loop on the mages' ideas on improvements.
And reasonable demands would be demands that the Chantry would be willing and able to support. And I am basing this entirely on in-world material available to all of us.

And since you are using that passive aggressive tone with me, why don't you grow some backbone and just say it?

Inprea wrote...

You've mentioned that the mages should be grateful that they shouldn't be treated more harshly.  Why shouldn't the templars be grateful that all the mages want is their freedom instead of the heads of those who oppressed them and their families? After all. It seems many rebellions also resulted in the royal families or families of leaders being executed even if they were children.

Huh? Why should the Templars be grateful that the mages seek to rebel? What could the Templars possibly gain from it? As it were the Templars were at the tippytop of the food chain in both the Chantry and the Circle, they held the power. Why on sweet mother earth, should the Templars be glad that the Circle seeks rebellion?? And I am sure that if the amges actually don't target Templar families, that the Templars would be grateful about that. Are you even being serious in those questions anymore? Because honestly they appear asinine....

Inprea wrote...

If the mages are truly as dangerous as some seem to believe they are. Nuclear weapons with a sense of self. Shouldn't the templars be grateful that the mages aren't being even more destructive then they already are?

The nuclear weapon comparison is largely an exageration used to illustrate a point. And if the mages aren't destructive in the comming war, then I am purty sure that the Templars will be rather happy about it actually.

Aaaaand that pretty much confirms it. You are just being willfully obtuse now.

No blood shed? What about the mages who have children taken away while they're waiting for these changes to take place? The mages that are made tranquil or abused by templars? What about the mages that die during the harrowing? You say no blood shed but what you're asking is for the mages to take on all the burden of the transition.

So you would expect people liberating themselves from a government they considered abusive to do what that government considers reasonable? I don't believe you're judging the mages by a medieval standard. Violently casting down those that ruled you seemed to be the standard way of changing government during such times.

I didn't say that the templars should be glad the mages chose to rebel. I said if the mages should be grateful the templars weren't more abusive why shouldn't the templars be grateful that all the mages want is freedom? They could want blood as well after all.

You believe the mages should submit to templar supervision and trust the templars to listen to them and manage their concerns. So you believe it's a good idea to negotiate from a place of weakness? Instead why don't the templars back off and then try to negotiate with the mages? The mages seek freedom it's the templars that are coming after them with their swords drawn.

Modifié par Inprea, 14 décembre 2013 - 12:10 .

[Vandicus]

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Inprea wrote...

The second meeting was interrupted by who? If you're going to point out who interrupted the first meeting why didn't you mention who interrupted the second?

I was actually referring to the first meeting (chronologically), which as I recall it, was interrupted because a murderer was on the loose in the White Tower. As I recall that was the only meeting that was actually about improvements to the Circle system, the second meeting was about the cure for Tranquility.

Inprea wrote...

Why do the mages demands have to be acknowledge by the chantry? Did people in ancient times wait for the king to acknowledge their rebellion before they began fighting back? Who should the demands be reasonable according to? What standards are you using to determine what would be reasonable demands?

The mages' demands has to be acknoweldged by the Chantry if they want a peaceful negotiation to happen. My ENTIRE point was that since the mages were offered a way to avoid bloodhsed and rebellion, that I think they should have taken that chance. So that is why the Chantry kinda needed to be kept in the loop on the mages' ideas on improvements.
And reasonable demands would be demands that the Chantry would be willing and able to support. And I am basing this entirely on in-world material available to all of us.

And since you are using that passive aggressive tone with me, why don't you grow some backbone and just say it?

Inprea wrote...

You've mentioned that the mages should be grateful that they shouldn't be treated more harshly.  Why shouldn't the templars be grateful that all the mages want is their freedom instead of the heads of those who oppressed them and their families? After all. It seems many rebellions also resulted in the royal families or families of leaders being executed even if they were children.

Huh? Why should the Templars be grateful that the mages seek to rebel? What could the Templars possibly gain from it? As it were the Templars were at the tippytop of the food chain in both the Chantry and the Circle, they held the power. Why on sweet mother earth, should the Templars be glad that the Circle seeks rebellion?? And I am sure that if the amges actually don't target Templar families, that the Templars would be grateful about that. Are you even being serious in those questions anymore? Because honestly they appear asinine....

Inprea wrote...

If the mages are truly as dangerous as some seem to believe they are. Nuclear weapons with a sense of self. Shouldn't the templars be grateful that the mages aren't being even more destructive then they already are?

The nuclear weapon comparison is largely an exageration used to illustrate a point. And if the mages aren't destructive in the comming war, then I am purty sure that the Templars will be rather happy about it actually.

Aaaaand that pretty much confirms it. You are just being willfully obtuse now.

No blood shed? What about the mages who have children taken away while they're waiting for these changes to take place? The mages that are made tranquil or abused by templars? What about the mages that die during the harrowing? You say no blood shed but what you're asking is for the mages to take on all the burden of the transition.

So you would expect people liberating themselves from a government they considered abusive to do what that government considers reasonable? I don't believe you're judging the mages by a medieval standard. Violently casting down those that ruled you seemed to be the standard way of changing government during such times.

I didn't say that the templars should be glad the mages chose to rebel. I said if the mages should be grateful the templars weren't more abusive why shouldn't the templars be grateful that all the mages want is freedom? They could want blood as well after all.

You believe the mages should submit to templar supervision and trust the templars to listen to them and manage their concerns. So you believe it's a good idea to negotiate from a place of weakness? Instead why don't the templars back off and then try to negotiate with the mages? The mages seek freedom it's the templars that are coming after them with their swords drawn.

The Templars are there to prevent a third Tevinter. Regrettably, it only takes a few irresponsible jerks to ruin things for everyone. At the least, mages get to live much much better than serfs(which most of them probably would have been).