1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Baconer wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
So best case scenario?
Mages bring blood magic to wars and serve loyally under their lords.

pfffft. Lords by what authority? The name of their spawning pool? What power does a name hold over fire and lightning?

I think what he's saying is the worst case scenario is mages seeing it that way. I think there's more room for moral ambiguity; the mages might in some cases be better people than the lords they kick out. (There's always a silver lining.)

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You could argue that Meredith's past would make her perfect for the job. She had a sister that she LOVED, who was a mage. The sister died to the inherent dangers of magic, not to some blood mage, which would mean that Meredith would see the dangers of magic, the demons, whereas she would see the mages like her sister.

There is no doubt that Meredith was a hardliner, but considering that we don't know how she acted in the 30-40 odd years since her sisters death, it seems rather rushed to claim her past should disqualify her entirely.

True. I have been chewing on this for a few hours, and the more I think on it, someone's past shouldn't necessarily deny them the job. I mean, for all we know, Greagoir could have had a similar experience as a child, and so could have had many other much fairer templars that we have met along the way.

Greagoir is strong willed. He was willing to work with the First Enchanter and with that both parties was willing to cooperate with each other, and thus made a safe and stable enviorment. If he had a simular situation as a child he certainly did not show it, and he didn't take his anger out on the mages either.

Greagoir is ok for a templar in my book.


I still standby what I said before. Meredith is an overly emotional individual and so is Cullen. Together with their past history should've never had the kind of postion that they had in Kirkwall. Greagoir made a HUGE mistake by shipping him over there to Kirkwall. 2 unstable people could not possibly take charge of a huge military organzation in a sucessful manner without it eventually tearing apart, and thats what we saw.

Nowhere does it say in the lore history of Kirkwall indicating that blood mages were a problem until after Elthina gave Meredith the crown of authority of the Templar order.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 14 décembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Her issue wasn't with non-mages, it was with nobility who are anything but. A noble had kept her as a sex slave. And it's an issue she's actually over. Before she viewed all nobility with contempt. After meeting Maric, she understands that to give them all a blanket viewpoint was wrong and that there are indeed some good nobles out there.

By that stock, I can also easily claim Meredith's issue was never with mages in general, only those who fail to understand the danger they pose and I could use her acceptance of Bethany as evidence.
But that is not the point at all; altough, I suspect a certain someone will lose its figurative ****, quote this while cutting the rest of the post and then start spoutig nonsense about how horrible Meredith is; the point here is that certain pro-mage often claim that Meredith's past should have, right from the very beginning, disqualified her from becoming a Knight Commander and this because her past negative experiences could lead to her disliking mages.
What I am trying to say is that, this logical can be equally applied to Fiona who should have been disquilified from becoming the Grand Enchanter because of past negative experiences with non-mages could lead to her disliking them.

Not quite the same thing. Fiona has gotten over her issues from her traumatic past (from what I saw, though she wasn't in Asunder very much to definitively state for sure) while Meredith never did.

See, this is an entire issue alltogether. Personally, I disagree with this assertion and I do believe that Fiona never got over her issues and that what she did is much, much worse than anything Meredtih ever did; but here, there is no double standard even if you believe one is qualified and the other isn't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nowhere does it say in the lore history of Kirkwall indicating that blood mages were a problem until after Elthina gave Meredith the crown of authority of the Templar order.

You mean other than the Enigma of Kirkwall, which pretty much states that Kirkwall has always had a huge problem with failed Harrowings and Blood Mages? Kirkwall has almost double the rate of failed Harrowings and mages turning to Blood Magic, than the two other Marcher Circles, Ostwick and Starkhaven.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nowhere does it say in the lore history of Kirkwall indicating that blood mages were a problem until after Elthina gave Meredith the crown of authority of the Templar order.

You mean other than the Enigma of Kirkwall, which pretty much states that Kirkwall has always had a huge problem with failed Harrowings and Blood Mages? Kirkwall has almost double the rate of failed Harrowings and mages turning to Blood Magic, than the two other Marcher Circles, Ostwick and Starkhaven.

Do you give any credit to that theory Corypheus might have played a role in that malevolent influence?

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nowhere does it say in the lore history of Kirkwall indicating that blood mages were a problem until after Elthina gave Meredith the crown of authority of the Templar order.

You mean other than the Enigma of Kirkwall, which pretty much states that Kirkwall has always had a huge problem with failed Harrowings and Blood Mages? Kirkwall has almost double the rate of failed Harrowings and mages turning to Blood Magic, than the two other Marcher Circles, Ostwick and Starkhaven.

Do you give any credit to that theory Corypheus might have played a role in that malevolent influence?

I don't know. Personally I find it a little bit wierd that a dormant Darkspawn would be able to influence mages miles away, especially since these mages weren't even infected by the blight. That being siad, I cannot completely discredit the theory, since Corypheus is indeed extremely powerful. But then why did he only influence Kirkwall in particular? Ostwick and Starkhaven seemingly doesn't have the same problems as Kirkwall, and these two cities are approxmiately just as close to Corypheus' prison as Kirkwall.

It just seems to make much more sense to me, that it is indeed the structure of Kirkwall itself and Kirkwall's history with death and suffering that leads it to have a malevolent nature. And of course whatever secret project the Tevinters were working on in the depths of the Undercity has not helped at all.

[DPSSOC]

ireneadler wrote...
i don't think it's a foregone conclusion that mages (if free) will build an oppressive, slave-owning empire, any more than it's a foregone conclusion that non--mages (if free) will build an oppressive, slave-owning empire, just because both (incredibly large and general) categories of people have done so in the past.

It is a forgone conclusion however that people with power will abuse it.  Not all of them perhaps but a good many.  And considering mages have demonstrated, repeatedly, that they won't police their own mages have a much easier time abusing their power than most.

ireneadler wrote...
behavior by some in a perceived group doesn't justify denying freedom to all members of that group. i think all of this can be handled within the larger political system by outlawing things that are dangerous and providing oversight through whatever system of justice thedas has---just as it's done for everyone else.

Here's the problem, because they've tried this before, magic is dangerous, period.  Any slip, any lapse in control, and even benign or trivial magic can become disastrous.  A mage simply trying to control a campfire engulfed himself in flame because he lost control.  So if you're going to outlaw dangerous magic you have to outlaw it all, because any attempt at magic can go very wrong and without centralizing mages in Circles you can't ensure proper safeguards.

Imagine what could have happened if Wilhelm had been just a little less careful, or if the Dwarves hadn't built a safety into the Control Rod.

ireneadler wrote...
outlaw blood magic, magic used harm, control, or diminish life, and so on. but don't imprison people on the basis of what they might do.

Again the problem isn't what mages might chose to do if free it's what they're capable of doing unintentionally.  If mages are allowed to live free how many Connors are going to happen?  Mage children desperate to save ailing loved ones making deals, perhaps unknowingly, with demons.  How many Avernus's are we going to encounter?  Mages who, confident in their abilities, push themselves too far and lose control?  Accidents happen, mistakes are made, judgement fails, and when it happens with mages entire villages can be wiped out.  Yeah you can watch for people doing illegal things with magic but how do you guard against people simply being human?

[The Baconer]

DPSSOC wrote...
Again the problem isn't what mages might chose to do if free it's what they're capable of doing unintentionally.  If mages are allowed to live free how many Connors are going to happen?  Mage children desperate to save ailing loved ones making deals, perhaps unknowingly, with demons.  How many Avernus's are we going to encounter?  Mages who, confident in their abilities, push themselves too far and lose control?  Accidents happen, mistakes are made, judgement fails, and when it happens with mages entire villages can be wiped out.  Yeah you can watch for people doing illegal things with magic but how do you guard against people simply being human?

Isolating them in a society composed only of their peers.

[dragonflight288]

Lord Raijin wrote....

Greagoir made a HUGE mistake by shipping him over there to Kirkwall.

I don't think Gregoire made a mistake. He showed himself as head & shoulders above Meredith in terms of holding his templars accountable and thinking of the best for his charges, both templars and mages. He recognized that Cullen was emotionally unstable being around the mages in the Circle that tortured him and he was seeing blood mages/abominations in all of them, so Gregoire sent him to the nearest Circle hoping it would be good for him to be at another Circle, and tried to attempt a tragedy in the making as he recognized the signs before the potential-tragedy could happen.

I think his only real mistake was sending Cullen to a Circle where the Knight-Commander, Meredith, had near the exact same views of mages as a whole as Cullen did. Cullen's codex entry in DA2 makes it very clear that his views on mages and his experiences in Kinloch Hold is the reason he advanced in rank so much to the point he became Meredith's second.

And as Meredith's second, I hold him just as accountable for gross criminal negligence in regards to holding templars accountable for their abuses of power over mages as I hold Meredith herself.

[ireneadler]

i still don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the chantry should oversee the circle, or that the circle is a just solution to things . and now everyone is arguing over who's fit to lead it and who not---oy vey.

i see the points about possession. i can't deny that's true. i have to admit, i don't understand the argument by vandicus. i don't see how general armed service will lead to more discontent among mages than anyone else, or how it will necessarily lead to another tevinter imperium. magic is a gift, a little like a knack for mathematics or science (which i definitely lack!) it won't necessarily lead to a quest for power, though these things can definitely be abused---at least, if you consider weapons of mass destruction to be abuse. some consider them to be a necessity. (i consider them an unfortunate use of science and technology, but that's due to my own political leaning.)

the tevinter imperium seemed to be suffering to something akin to 'mad scientist' syndrome, imo. it's not necessarily the case that it will happen again.

as far as possession---i think some kind of harrowing is a good idea. it would be kind of like an lsat. if you want to go on to study law, you need to take an lsat. if you want to practice magic, you need to pass a harrowing. i'm not sure how it would be administered, though.

circles could exist, but they would be more like universities----people could study magic and ethics and so on so that magic could be used as a positive force. maybe this is a little idealistic, but i think it's better than taking people from their parents and placing them in what are essentially large prisons. templars are placed in positions of authority over mages, and they may be kind or they may not, but it's a situation open for abuse.

[Medhia Nox]

@ireneadler: The Chantry gets to oversee the mages - because the Chantry provides for all the mages needs so that they can spend all their time studying their powers - instead of working like normal people.

I'm curious how the mages are going to support themselves "if" they gain freedom.

I look forward to farmer mages (someone's gotta feed the mages) - seamstress mages (someone's gotta make those fine robes) - and logger mages (someone's gotta keep all those fireplaces stocked).

[DPSSOC]

ireneadler wrote...
as far as possession---i think some kind of harrowing is a good idea. it would be kind of like an lsat. if you want to go on to study law, you need to take an lsat. if you want to practice magic, you need to pass a harrowing. i'm not sure how it would be administered, though.

Better question is how do you enforce it.  Law is easy, eventually if you want to practice you're going to run into people who'll demand proof of certification.  Mages can practice magic in isolation, outside extreme circumstances they don't need anyone or anything else.  The only way to stop mages from practicing magic whether they're harrowed or not is Tranquility, and I somehow doubt you'd be ok with that.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@ireneadler: The Chantry gets to oversee the mages - because the Chantry provides for all the mages needs so that they can spend all their time studying their powers - instead of working like normal people.

I'm curious how the mages are going to support themselves "if" they gain freedom.

I look forward to farmer mages (someone's gotta feed the mages) - seamstress mages (someone's gotta make those fine robes) - and logger mages (someone's gotta keep all those fireplaces stocked).

They'll make normal non magic people do it, for no pay and no rights, using blood magic. 

[TEWR]

@ireneadler: The Chantry gets to oversee the mages - because the Chantry provides for all the mages needs so that they can spend all their time studying their powers - instead of working like normal people.

Actually no. The Circles are the ones that raise funds to maintain the Circles' needs, not the Chantry. Specifically through the Tranquil and Formari.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2013 - 03:45 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@ireneadler: The Chantry gets to oversee the mages - because the Chantry provides for all the mages needs so that they can spend all their time studying their powers - instead of working like normal people.

Actually no. The Circles are the ones that raise funds to maintain the Circles' needs, not the Chantry. Specifically through the Tranquil and Formari.

What's a fomari? The wiki doesn't list it as exsisting in the database. 

[TEWR]

Formari are a group of people that make enchanted goods, primarily composed of Tranquil. Originally it was supposed to be JUST Tranquil, but Solivitus crafting magical enchanted goods of his own put him in the Formari category and thus made it not Tranquil-exclusive.

Artisans, to put it simply.

[Vandicus]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
So best case scenario?
Mages bring blood magic to wars and serve loyally under their lords.

pfffft. Lords by what authority? The name of their spawning pool? What power does a name hold over fire and lightning?

I think what he's saying is the worst case scenario is mages seeing it that way. I think there's more room for moral ambiguity; the mages might in some cases be better people than the lords they kick out. (There's always a silver lining.)

Sure that's possible, in the transition phase.

Problem is, mages who resort to blood magic, especially the blood sacrifice level ones, are way stronger than the ones who don't. That's why people use it. And some mages are going to be less than scrupulous. That's human nature. Heck even assuming mage loyalty, the nobles themselves would undoubtedly bring blood magic into common use in warfare.

Now from here, assuming mage-lords occurs(rather than mages serving lords), the one's who use blood magic will be stronger than the ones who don't. The ones who practice human sacrifice in the dozens will be stronger than the ones who try to restrain themselves and only borrow non-lethal amounts of blood.

The most sociopathic mage wins. That's how the second Tevinter Imperium came about. When the people who are willing to commit the greatest atrocities are the ones who are most likely to be in power, you get a blood magic and slave based society(slaves are explicitly necessary in order to have convenient consumables).

"The conflict began when Tevinter's Grand Clerics argued that the Chant of Light's commandment, "magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him," meant that magic must serve the greater good and not used to control the minds of others. They believed that this could be accomplished by freeing Magi to take part in government."

Sounds reasonable doesn't it? Unfortunately, not every mage is like Adralla, seeking to curtail the harmful powers of magic over their fellow man. 

Given, there are worse hypothetical situation then living as a mundane or slave in Tevinter, but its still quite a bit worse than pretty much anywhere else that we're aware of.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Formari are a group of people that make enchanted goods, primarily composed of Tranquil. Originally it was supposed to be JUST Tranquil, but Solivitus crafting magical enchanted goods of his own put him in the Formari category and thus made it not Tranquil-exclusive.

Artisans, to put it simply.

Thanks for the info, sounds pretty cool.

[Medhia Nox]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Could you provide the Codex entry or other official indication of this?

I know the Lucrosians, the Tranquil and the Formari are all lucrative... but there's no way I can conceive that after paying for the Lyrium to make enchantments - that they have enough to buy food for hundreds, clothing for hundreds of mages, paper and ink for hundreds of mages, furniture for hundreds of mages, fuel (logs for their fires), maintenance, book binders for thousands of books (in the backwater Ferelden tower alone), pest control (damn you spiders!), stipends for dozens of Senior Enchanters (assuming there's a form of pay), flasks, elfroot, deep mushrooms, distillation agent, and on... and on.

Also - who's going to volunteer to be Tranquil now? 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 décembre 2013 - 03:57 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The chantry controls the lyrium trade, so essentially the chantry is paying for all the materials those groups need to make their items to sell, along with the material mages need to conduct their spells.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Could you provide the Codex entry or other official indication of this?

I am scouring the Wiki and I see nothing to corroborate that.

[TEWR]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Could you provide the Codex entry or other official indication of this?

Tranquil at Ostagar. He says that the Circles' funds are the result of their crafts they have generated and sold and that they couldn't get by on charity alone.

[Medhia Nox]

Just loaded up an Ostagar save.

I couldn't get him to say any such thing.

He does say that becoming Tranquil is a small price to pay for being an enchanter.  He says he's pleased that he could be such a help.

He says mages can't touch lyrium.

He says he's an artisan and enchanter.

But nothing about his enchantments funding the Circle.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 décembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Just loaded up an Ostagar save.

I couldn't get him to say any such thing.

He does say that becoming Tranquil is a small price to pay for being an enchanter.  He says he's pleased that he could be such a help.

He says mages can't touch lyrium.

He says he's an artisan and enchanter.

But nothing about his enchantments funding the Circle.

Damn. Thorough.

[Medhia Nox]

Ahh...

He does say that "Enchantment provides the Circle it's wealth".

I remain dubious.