1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

ireneadler wrote...


i see the points about possession. i can't deny that's true. i have to admit, i don't understand the argument by vandicus. i don't see how general armed service will lead to more discontent among mages than anyone else, or how it will necessarily lead to another tevinter imperium. magic is a gift, a little like a knack for mathematics or science (which i definitely lack!) it won't necessarily lead to a quest for power, though these things can definitely be abused---at least, if you consider weapons of mass destruction to be abuse. some consider them to be a necessity. (i consider them an unfortunate use of science and technology, but that's due to my own political leaning.)

A serf doesn't have much chance of rebelling against his lord. He's a single man probably without much combat training. However a good many soldiers would regularly desert or betray their army.

Now lets assume they're a mage. In which case, its actually quite plausible to overthrow their lord. This also happens with talented military officers who were more popular with their men than the ruler they served historically speaking. Mages have this opportunity by sheer firepower(particularly blood magic aspects).

Most people in Thedas would also take the same opportunities to escape or rebel against obligatory military service(which represents risking your life for the selfish gains of a person who probably only uses his powers to tax and abuse your village). Mages just happen to be opportunely positioned to do so should they be integrated with normal society.

Simply put, there's a very good reason the Chantry enforces mage neutrality in most conflicts.

[TEWR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Ahh...

He does say that "Enchantment provides the Circle it's wealth".

I remain dubious.

Remember, they have a shop in Denerim, and Val Royeaux even relies heavily on things the Circle produces. Those are only two references off the top of my head, though there assuredly more.

And there's no reason to really doubt the Tranquil's words. Circle crafted goods are very valuable.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2013 - 04:27 .

[Medhia Nox]

Valuable to who?

They can only be selling to nobles... and even then, how many nobles could afford them?

I'd really like them to develop their mage economics more - cause, while I have to accept what it says - it's seems hastily tacked on.

That Tranquil also only says that there's "Elemental enchantments" - who the hell needs to stockpile elemental runes?

And you would probably distrust his view on how happy he is to be a Tranquil, yeah?

The only thing he mentions I could see people buying - and I've never even seen one in game - are "Glow Lights".

[TEWR]

And you would probably distrust his view on how happy he is to be a Tranquil, yeah?

I... don't know. The Tranquil in Asunder (NOT Pharamond, but a different one) made me question Tranquility a bit. I do think the removal of emotions is bad no matter what, but the Tranquil in Asunder still made a decision to help Rhys. She didn't have to (I think it was a she anyway).

So I'm not very critical of Tranquility as much anymore, though I still think removing emotions is just bad. I would consider that a Fate Worse then Death, though.

Asunder actually made me want to follow Lambert, when before I thought him a nutjob.

The only thing he mentions I could see people buying - and I've never even seen one in game - are "Glow Lights".

They're all over Val Royeaux, IIRC. Basically magical light bulbs I think.

Valuable to who?

They can only be selling to nobles... and even then, how many nobles could afford them?

Not every enchanted good will be insanely expensive. Genitivi mentions enchanted penknifes in his talk of the Tranquil. I doubt that'd cost you an arm and a leg.

Also, from the Codex on the Tranquil:

The Formari, the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that sustains our towers.

--From On Tranquility and the Role of the Fade in Human Society, by First Enchanter Josephus.

Though as I said earlier, Solivitus (a non-Tranquil) is part of the Formari.

And the Genitivi version:

Every city of respectable size boasts a Circle of Magi shop, and every one of these shops is run by a Tranquil proprietor.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[Medhia Nox]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Oh, you're definitely correct. I just think as far as design goes - I don't feel it "works" (what I feel works is not relevant to anyone else of course).

Tranquil proprietor... I guess "Customer Service" isn't something Thedosians have caught on to yet.

Far more things state the Tranquil are required - so I'm inclined to think Solivitus serves an alternative role (without so much as a shred of proof). Otherwise - they're just changing that to fit their needs too.

Many who want mage freedom want to abolish Tranquilization - which would mean that the free mages would literally be throwing away their own source of income.

I really think I would have liked to have seen other uses for enchantment to give a perspective on what it does for the common person.

[TEWR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Oh, you're definitely correct. I just think as far as design goes - I don't feel it "works" (what I feel works is not relevant to anyone else of course).

I won't disagree that it has very little exploration, when it's a crucial element to politics. Mage politics especially, but politics in general requires a look at economics.

Tranquil proprietor... I guess "Customer Service" isn't something Thedosians have caught on to yet.

Haha not at all.

Far more things state the Tranquil are required - so I'm inclined to think Solivitus serves an alternative role (without so much as a shred of proof). Otherwise - they're just changing that to fit their needs too.

They're changing it. Solivitus personally crafts an item for Hawke and requests items for him to work with (rather then others), and his shop is called Formari Herbalist.

Not a change I mind, to be honest.

Many who want mage freedom want to abolish Tranquilization - which would mean that the free mages would literally be throwing away their own source of income.

I'd keep Tranquilization around only for the economic reasons, but I'd also look into ways to neutralize magic without neutering a Mage's emotions. Once that happens, Dwarves would be a replacement for Tranquil (as the two perform the same functions, but Dwarves are certainly more personable). Would some money be lost because Tranquil don't really need much more then a place to sleep and eat? Yeah, perhaps, but it'd at least work to preserve peace.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[ireneadler]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Oh, you're definitely correct. I just think as far as design goes - I don't feel it "works" (what I feel works is not relevant to anyone else of course).

Tranquil proprietor... I guess "Customer Service" isn't something Thedosians have caught on to yet.

Far more things state the Tranquil are required - so I'm inclined to think Solivitus serves an alternative role (without so much as a shred of proof). Otherwise - they're just changing that to fit their needs too.

Many who want mage freedom want to abolish Tranquilization - which would mean that the free mages would literally be throwing away their own source of income.

I really think I would have liked to have seen other uses for enchantment to give a perspective on what it does for the common person.

my thought is that the only reason tranquil-made goods are a primary means of support for the circle is that the hierarchy doesn't care if tranquils are allowed to a means of support---they have no desire to use it for independence.  they don't really want to do much of anything, and so they're easily controlled.

but why wouldn't mage skills be marketable, assuming that they were allowed to the freedom to contribute to the economy as independent people?  who doesn't need a healer?  also, anyone with a sword and the skill to use it can make money in thedas---it's how hawke gets by, it's how the hero of ferelden got by as well.  fighting skills are prized in that economy.

[ireneadler]

Vandicus wrote...

ireneadler wrote...


i see the points about possession. i can't deny that's true. i have to admit, i don't understand the argument by vandicus. i don't see how general armed service will lead to more discontent among mages than anyone else, or how it will necessarily lead to another tevinter imperium. magic is a gift, a little like a knack for mathematics or science (which i definitely lack!) it won't necessarily lead to a quest for power, though these things can definitely be abused---at least, if you consider weapons of mass destruction to be abuse. some consider them to be a necessity. (i consider them an unfortunate use of science and technology, but that's due to my own political leaning.)

A serf doesn't have much chance of rebelling against his lord. He's a single man probably without much combat training. However a good many soldiers would regularly desert or betray their army.

Now lets assume they're a mage. In which case, its actually quite plausible to overthrow their lord. This also happens with talented military officers who were more popular with their men than the ruler they served historically speaking. Mages have this opportunity by sheer firepower(particularly blood magic aspects).

Most people in Thedas would also take the same opportunities to escape or rebel against obligatory military service(which represents risking your life for the selfish gains of a person who probably only uses his powers to tax and abuse your village). Mages just happen to be opportunely positioned to do so should they be integrated with normal society.

Simply put, there's a very good reason the Chantry enforces mage neutrality in most conflicts.

it's true, we are talking about a feudal system, and hierarchy was strictly guarded.  it's a little strange to have one foot in a feudal system (in terms of gameplay) and another in a 21st century setting, and you've been taught about other systems and how they unfold, and your own system is grappling with an entirely different set of questions.  but maybe those questions don't apply to the system we're discussing... or not all of them, anyway.

still... there's merlin to think about :-).  how on earth would a wizard have become the right hand of a king if he were prohibited to use his skill in a military setting?  mages are wizards, or potential wizards, at the very least.  in some stories, they're not necessarily seen as something to be feared, but as people having a skill that can be used for good or ill.

so... do you set up a system that increases the potential for good, or do you set up a system that only controls for what can go wrong?  i think the circle (as it exists) only controls for what can go wrong---at least, that seems to be its main emphasis.  but what about something that takes both possibilities into account?  could it be done in thedas?

[dragonflight288]

still... there's merlin to think about :-). how on earth would a wizard have become the right hand of a king if he were prohibited to use his skill in a military setting? mages are wizards, or potential wizards, at the very least. in some stories, they're not necessarily seen as something to be feared, but as people having a skill that can be used for good or ill.

I did a term paper on Merlin and studied all the original legends of Merlin. His upbringing, his origins, how he got involved with King Arthur so I CAN answer that.

Actually, Merlin is the reason Arthur was born. He used his magic to help Uther Pendragon sleep with Duke Gortois of Cornwall's wife while they were in the midst of a civil war, and Duke Gortois was killed in battle at the same time. Merlin's price for doing this was to have Uther give the child that would be born to Merlin (or Sir Ector based on which original legend is being told) and the child would be raised in secret.

Merlin was involved with Arthur's upbringing and taught him everything about court etiquette, justice, right and wrong, and so on, and went on to act as an advisor to Arthur during his reign, although he wasn't a constant presence in the court but rather he came and went as he chose, intervening with solid advice when it was needed, then went on his merry way again.