1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Anyone can be a rapist, so what exactly is the point you're trying to make with that statement? Other then blatent fear mongering of course.

Think that through for a minute.  Sure, anyone can potentially be a rapist, just like they can potentially be a murderer or a thief.  But nobody in their right mind would use that reasoning to be okay with sending someone to a school where people already known to commit those acts is permitted to be in charge of students.

So what you're saying is nobody should go to anywhere where a bad thing happened once? Well then, nobody should go to any major cities, be educated in any schools, or walk down any main streets ever again for the rest of life.

A better analogy for her argument would be that it's smart to avoid neighborhoods with a high rape/robbery/murder rate.

You mean the ones that usually are next to or located inside major cities? Whose residents usually send their kids to lots of the public schools in the area where they usually cause trouble for other students? And whose actions usually occur on the open main streets and roads?

[Lord Raijin]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

He already enjoys Tranquil. Besides, the point is that he could execute her under color of law for resisting him, especially if he gets her into a position where she needs magic to do so.

If Beth resisted him all he could do is to have her made tranquil so all of that resistance that she once had will vanished, and then he gains a new sex slave for his collection.



I can see her saying this to her brother as he came in for a visit.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Br3ad wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Think that through for a minute.  Sure, anyone can potentially be a rapist, just like they can potentially be a murderer or a thief.  But nobody in their right mind would use that reasoning to be okay with sending someone to a school where people already known to commit those acts is permitted to be in charge of students.

So what you're saying is nobody should go to anywhere where a bad thing happened once? Well then, nobody should go to any major cities, be educated in any schools, or walk down any main streets ever again for the rest of life.

A better analogy for her argument would be that it's smart to avoid neighborhoods with a high rape/robbery/murder rate.

>Implying that the rape rate is high with no proof.

Hey, it's the most accurate analogy I could think of for her argument.

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Anyone can be a rapist, so what exactly is the point you're trying to make with that statement? Other then blatent fear mongering of course.

Think that through for a minute.  Sure, anyone can potentially be a rapist, just like they can potentially be a murderer or a thief.  But nobody in their right mind would use that reasoning to be okay with sending someone to a school where people already known to commit those acts is permitted to be in charge of students.

So what you're saying is nobody should go to anywhere where a bad thing happened once? Well then, nobody should go to any major cities, be educated in any schools, or walk down any main streets ever again for the rest of life.

It's not about a bad thing happening once.  You're telling me you wouldn't be extremely suspicious of an organization who kept a known rapist on its staff, in a position of authority over people, including children? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

He already enjoys Tranquil. Besides, the point is that he could execute her under color of law for resisting him, especially if he gets her into a position where she needs magic to do so.

If Beth resisted him all he could do is to have her made tranquil so all of that resistance that she once had will vanished, and then he gains a new sex slave for his collection.
*snipped image of victim*

I can see her saying this to her brother as he came in for a visit.

Point is, the main objection to Bethany entering a Circle with Alrik in it is that the bastard has the authority to do either. (Though there's other solutions to this besides the Adrian one.)

[MisterJB]

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Anyone can be a rapist, so what exactly is the point you're trying to make with that statement? Other then blatent fear mongering of course.

Think that through for a minute.  Sure, anyone can potentially be a rapist, just like they can potentially be a murderer or a thief.  But nobody in their right mind would use that reasoning to be okay with sending someone to a school where people already known to commit those acts is permitted to be in charge of students.

So what you're saying is nobody should go to anywhere where a bad thing happened once? Well then, nobody should go to any major cities, be educated in any schools, or walk down any main streets ever again for the rest of life.

It's not about a bad thing happening once.  You're telling me you wouldn't be extremely suspicious of an organization who kept a known rapist on its staff, in a position of authority over people, including children? 

Considering there is a roman catholic university just 2 blocks from my house, my answer would probably be no, not really. Not a believer, but I don't really have major bones to pick to the point I want every priest and every church shut down and destroyed, which is what some people on here seem to wish to do with the dragon age universe with the chantry.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:26 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So what you're saying is nobody should go to anywhere where a bad thing happened once? Well then, nobody should go to any major cities, be educated in any schools, or walk down any main streets ever again for the rest of life.

A better analogy for her argument would be that it's smart to avoid neighborhoods with a high rape/robbery/murder rate.

You mean the ones that usually are next to or located inside major cities? Whose residents usually send their kids to lots of the public schools in the area where they usually cause trouble for other students? And whose actions usually occur on the open main streets and roads?

I think that analogy got away from some of my readers.

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's not about a bad thing happening once.  You're telling me you wouldn't be extremely suspicious of an organization who kept a known rapist on its staff, in a position of authority over people, including children? 

Considering there is a roman catholic university just 2 blocks from my house, my answer would probably be no, not really. Not a believer, but I don't really have major bones to pick to the point I want every priest and every church shut down and destroyed, which is what some people on here seem to wish to do with the dragon age universe with the chantry.

....I quit.

More seriously, since you edited your original comment right as I responded...actually, first, could we just leave THAT particular RL scenario alone? There was zero need to bring that into this discussion.

Moving on, I wasn't asking whether you'd want to systematically destroy the entire organization.  Rather, I was asking if you would somehow not have a problem with sending someone to a school who kept known rapists on staff, and you're basically saying nope, no problem at all. 

You realize that what you're ultimately saying is that you can't see why putting people under the authority of a KNOWN RAPIST is a bad idea??  Or that you can't understand why people might take exception to the organization for allowing that situation to be?

Modifié par Silfren, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:31 .

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

*snip*

There are always people who don't realize how the wind is shifting agianst them.

They may think things may be ok and tolerable, but they might just not be looking too closely

[Br3admax]

Are we seriously saying that it's not so bad in Kirkwall? The city where even the Templars and rulers live in fear? Really?

[Cainhurst Crow]

DA2 handled the tranquil horribly and just used it as another stupid point of "everyone is bad" in their game in the most hamfisted ways possible.

Remember when owain not only disagreed with you, but rebutted against your statements in DAO regarding your beliefs on tranquility and emotion? Where they actually portrayed what it would mean like to have no real emotions but still retain your memories and such perfectly?

"Well **** that" said DA2, "Let's just make them mindless zombies who get instantly brainwashed!!!"

Tranquils. Add them to the list of things DA2 got wrong.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Tranquils. Add them to the list of things DA2 got wrong.

Are you trying to create a list with a mass large enough to form a black hole?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:33 .

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

DA2 handled the tranquil horribly and just used it as another stupid point of "everyone is bad" in their game in the most hamfisted ways possible.

Remember when owain not only disagreed with you, but rebutted against your statements in DAO regarding your beliefs on tranquility and emotion? Where they actually portrayed what it would mean like to have no real emotions but still retain your memories and such perfectly?

"Well **** that" said DA2, "Let's just make them mindless zombies who get instantly brainwashed!!!"

Tranquils. Add them to the list of things DA2 got wrong.

Actually, after Origins, Bioware took the Tranquil in a different direction, seemingly attempting to paint them as people who simply lack emotion but are otherwise completely the same as non-Tranquiled persons.  Presumably because of the story they needed to write for Asunder, it simply wouldn't work for people to believe that the Tranquil lack anything approaching free will.  Not that DA2 doesn't screw with that lore quite a bit.  And never mind that emotions are a vital component of free will in the first place.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Tranquils. Add them to the list of things DA2 got wrong.

Are you trying to create a list with a mass large enough to form a black hole?

A super massive black hole actually. You see my theory is that If I create a large enough black hole that it begins to breach the walls of the multiverse and suck in particles from other universes, that I can use them to backtrack a universe where dragon age 2 was good and still managed to have lots of action elements in it.

It's a long process but I'm getting there.

[Cheylus]

Silfren wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

Whatever. Circles don't exist anymore.

Such a cogent and delightful addition to the conversation!  Thank you for enlightening us all.

Am I wrong?
Some people are still stuck in DA2. I'm trying to use my imagination and my logic. Unlike most people here, I'm not picking side, I'm not refering to comunism and I don't want to have the final word in the "mage/templar" debate written and cleverly designed to have no end.

"Too short, didn't compute" version:
- apostates don't exist anymore
- no more Tranquils
- the Order of the Templars don't exist anymore. "Templars" are as relevant today as witches or oracles
- right now, nobody knows how to counter magic except "templars", but their order don't exist anymore
- mages won't have any education about magic and its risks
- mages, feared by mundanes, are coming to the outside world: they are poor, they don't know anything about the outside world, they are hated by most people; it is likely they will be hunted; it is likely they will use magic to defend themselves (or to get money, food, shelter, etc.)

I humbly think all those points are much more interesting than debating about whether or not Circles are totalitarian; Circles are no more. Time to move on and time to think of what's ahead of us.

Modifié par Cheylus, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:40 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Actually, after Origins, Bioware took the Tranquil in a different direction, seemingly attempting to paint them as people who simply lack emotion but are otherwise completely the same as non-Tranquiled persons.  Presumably because of the story they needed to write for Asunder, it simply wouldn't work for people to believe that the Tranquil lack anything approaching free will.  Not that DA2 doesn't screw with that lore quite a bit.  And never mind that emotions are a vital component of free will in the first place.

Actually, from what I understand of DA2, they come off more as that in DA:O than in 2.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

DA2 handled the tranquil horribly and just used it as another stupid point of "everyone is bad" in their game in the most hamfisted ways possible.

Remember when owain not only disagreed with you, but rebutted against your statements in DAO regarding your beliefs on tranquility and emotion? Where they actually portrayed what it would mean like to have no real emotions but still retain your memories and such perfectly?

"Well **** that" said DA2, "Let's just make them mindless zombies who get instantly brainwashed!!!"

Tranquils. Add them to the list of things DA2 got wrong.

Actually, after Origins, Bioware took the Tranquil in a different direction, seemingly attempting to paint them as people who simply lack emotion but are otherwise completely the same as non-Tranquiled persons.  Presumably because of the story they needed to write for Asunder, it simply wouldn't work for people to believe that the Tranquil lack anything approaching free will.  Not that DA2 doesn't screw with that lore quite a bit.  And never mind that emotions are a vital component of free will in the first place.

That's what we had in dragon age origins.

We only got the dumb mindslave tranquils in dragon age 2. Who seem to lose all their memories and become smiling steford wives with no opinions of their own.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well the devs seem to still hold the opinion that the former is how Tranquil actually are, regardless of what we saw in DA2.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Actually, after Origins, Bioware took the Tranquil in a different direction, seemingly attempting to paint them as people who simply lack emotion but are otherwise completely the same as non-Tranquiled persons.  Presumably because of the story they needed to write for Asunder, it simply wouldn't work for people to believe that the Tranquil lack anything approaching free will.  Not that DA2 doesn't screw with that lore quite a bit.  And never mind that emotions are a vital component of free will in the first place.

Actually, from what I understand of DA2, they come off more as that in DA:O than in 2.

That's not quite the way I recall it.  But then I might be misremembering the rather lengthy and heated discussion on the subject in a thread from over a year ago, when people were upset over Gaider's insistence that removing emotions from the Tranquil never had any effect on their free will at all.  The belief seemed to be that Tranquil were incapable of free will all along, but that after Origins Gaider and Co. were moving away from that.  I seem to remember wondering, if that was the case, what were they trying to accomplish in DA2 with the apparent opposite.

For my part, I never thought that the Tranquil in Origins were functionally any different from those in DA2.  We just didn't see them in any situations of abuse where people were going out of their way to take advantage of their lack of emotion.

Modifié par Silfren, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:42 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well the devs seem to still hold the opinion that the former is how Tranquil actually are, regardless of what we saw in DA2.

In which opinion they are backed by Origins, Asunder, and presumably anything relevant in Inquisition. Besides, anything they don't like in DA2 they can say was just Varric either embellishing or oversimplfying.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
What response system would you recommend to save Redcliffe, in the context of telegraphs not existing*, any responding Templars/mages limited to the speed a horse can give them, and the problem starting in the equivalent of City Hall? (Seriously, if it were not for the Warden, that place would have been screwed.) Furthermore, can whatever you come up with be practically applied to an area less important than the seat of a relatively high-ranking noble?

* The Circle's Seeing Stones might be an answer to this problem, but I don't know how easy they are to make. For all I know the Circle could be capable of pumping them out fast enough to invent the internet, or they might be a lost technology the Circle understands just well enough to use.

Well, it's too late for Redcliffe. My plan is a long-term overhaul of the Circle and Templar systems, which I perceive as being fundamentally flawed in both theory and practice.

It's multi-faceted, and would likely take years, and, as the pro-Templars are keen to point out, it wouldn't prevent every incident (as if the current one does), but that's because prevention isn't the sole goal of my system. I'm not interested in preserving a ****ty society, I want to create a fairer and more equitable one, one that's worth saving when stuff goes wrong.

But for the purposes of your question, the main point is de-centralization. The Circles (and thus, the Templars) are just too isolated. Ideally, there would be, at the very least, a significant magic-policing body in every major population centre, similar to how police stations and fire stations operate in our own world.

They would be wholly secular, not operating under any sort of religious authority, nor would they answer to local lords or what-have-you. The difficulty comes in deciding if they should swear fealty to a monarch or other national ruler, or be part of some sort of international bureau, like the Inquisition and the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:44 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Your solutions sound as effective as the league of nations when it comes to solving problems.

[Silfren]

Cheylus wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

Whatever. Circles don't exist anymore.

Such a cogent and delightful addition to the conversation!  Thank you for enlightening us all.

Am I wrong?
Some people are still stuck in DA2. I'm trying to use my imagination and my logic. Unlike most people here, I'm not picking side, I'm not refering to comunism and I don't want to have the final word in the "mage/templar" debate written and cleverly designed to have no end.

"Too short, didn't compute" version:
- apostates don't exist anymore
- no more Tranquils
- the Order of the Templars don't exist anymore. "Templars" are as relevant today as witches or oracles
- right now, nobody knows how to counter magic except "templars", but their order don't exist anymore
- mages won't have any education about magic and its risks
- mages, feared by mundanes, are coming to the outside world: they are poor, they don't know anything about the outside world, they are hated by most people; it is likely they will be hunted; it is likely they will use magic to defend themselves (or to get money, food, shelter, etc.)

I humbly think all those points are much more interesting than debating about whether or not Circles are totalitarian; Circles are no more. Time to move on and time to think of what's ahead of us.

1) the Templars DO still exist.  They're simply (one faction of them, at least) separate from the Chantry. 

2) Apostates do still exist.  Basically all Circle mages have been declared apostates.  Unless I've misunderstood something.

3)There are still Tranquils.  I don't think the revelation from Asunder means that all Tranquil have suddenly had their capacity for emotion suddenly restored.

4) Who the hell says that without the Circle system, mages will have no means of being educated about the risks of magic? Did I miss something where all the existing mages in the world suddenly vanished into thin air?

Modifié par Silfren, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Actually, after Origins, Bioware took the Tranquil in a different direction, seemingly attempting to paint them as people who simply lack emotion but are otherwise completely the same as non-Tranquiled persons.  Presumably because of the story they needed to write for Asunder, it simply wouldn't work for people to believe that the Tranquil lack anything approaching free will.  Not that DA2 doesn't screw with that lore quite a bit.  And never mind that emotions are a vital component of free will in the first place.

Actually, from what I understand of DA2, they come off more as that in DA:O than in 2.

That's not quite the way I recall it.  But then I might be misremembering the rather lengthy and heated discussion on the subject in a thread from over a year ago, when people were upset over Gaider's insistence that removing emotions from the Tranquil never had any effect on their free will at all.  The belief seemed to be that Tranquil were incapable of free will all along, but that after Origins Gaider and Co. were moving away from that.  I seem to remember wondering, if that was the case, what were they trying to accomplish in DA2 with the apparent opposite.

For my part, I never thought that the Tranquil in Origins were functionally any different from those in DA2.  We just didn't see them in any situations of abuse where people were going out of their way to take advantage of their lack of emotion.

The first I remember hearing that the Tranquil in Origins weren't portrayed as having free will was Ian pointing out (probably in the same thread you're thinking of) that it logically followed from not having emotions. Though I'll note that I had ended up just assuming they were intended to come off that way, given Owain's Idiot Ball moment and the later portrayal of them as mindslaves, and not really looking for signs of the opposite until reading Gaider's responses to this.