1858 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I'd love to see Owain return - I'd love to see him forcibly detranquilized by supposedly well intentioned mages - and then I'd love to see him slaughter everyone nearby in an uncontrollable rage of emotions as he screams: "Put me back!"

The Codex for the Tranquil states very clearly that a not insignificant number of mages seek Tranquility.

As far as storytelling goes, what they saw in the Tranquil must have been acceptable compared to the predations of demonic entities.

I felt like that was a more in depth concept than rape puppets or whatever nonsense DA 2 offered up.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
But for the purposes of your question, the main point is de-centralization. The Circles (and thus, the Templars) are just too isolated. Ideally, there would be, at the very least, a significant magic-policing body in every major population centre, similar to how police stations and fire stations operate in our own world.

But there already is. There is a Chantry present in every major population centre and every Chantry will always have Templar to guard it and respond to threats to the population.
Denerim had Templars, Lothering had Templars, Kirkwall had Templars, Amaranthine had Templars, Val-Royeaux had Templars. Truthfully, the only major population centre we've seen without a number of Templars was Redcliff and it's possible they were present but died defending the village.
It's just not effective.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:57 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd love to see Owain return - I'd love to see him forcibly detranquilized by supposedly well intentioned mages - and then I'd love to see him slaughter everyone nearby in an uncontrollable rage of emotions as he screams: "Put me back!"

The Codex for the Tranquil states very clearly that a not insignificant number of mages seek Tranquility.

As far as storytelling goes, what they saw in the Tranquil must have been acceptable compared to the predations of demonic entities.

I felt like that was a more in depth concept than rape puppets or whatever nonsense DA 2 offered up.

I too would like to see the different reactions to reversed Tranquility. I thought it was interesting watching Pharamond unable to contain his emotional outbursts.

[Plaintiff]

What a non-Tranquil sees in Tranquility is irrelevent. They're completely ignorant and uninformed about what being Tranquil actually means, because the Tranquil, lacking emotions, are unable to adequately communicate how it feels. Nobody can know if they really want to be Tranquil until they experience it first-hand, and the only way anyone on the outside can be sure that they really want it is to undo it so they can ask them if they are sure.

As it is, the only two people who've ever been de-Tranquiled begged to die rather than return to that state. That's not enough evidence to draw a conclusion, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Cheylus]

1) They believe they exist. As you know, Templars were born when the Inquisition merged with the Chantry. Now that the treaty is broken, Templars lost their "legitimacy" and their purpose. People having abilities to hunt mages aren't "templars" anymore. They are like courtisans once you beheaded the king.
2) Every people with magic abilities are mages or apostates, depending on the point of view. If you end slavery, slaves only exist for slavers. If you end the Circles, apostates only exist for templars (see 1.).
3) No more "harrowing" or "tranquilization" if you prefer.
4) Ok, I'll try to be more accurate: education isn't mandatory and centralized anymore.

Modifié par Cheylus, 03 décembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd love to see Owain return - I'd love to see him forcibly detranquilized by supposedly well intentioned mages - and then I'd love to see him slaughter everyone nearby in an uncontrollable rage of emotions as he screams: "Put me back!"

The Codex for the Tranquil states very clearly that a not insignificant number of mages seek Tranquility.

As far as storytelling goes, what they saw in the Tranquil must have been acceptable compared to the predations of demonic entities.

I felt like that was a more in depth concept than rape puppets or whatever nonsense DA 2 offered up.

What we don't know is how many of those mages would have chosen Tranquility if death was not the only other way to avoid the Harrowing.  Some mages choose Tranquility due to fear of demonic possession, certainly, but you can't go assuming that's the go-to reason why they all choose it.  There simply is no way to know how many of them choose it simply because they aren't afforded a better option.  It's entirely possible that many of them make that choice simply as the least bad of a range of sh*t options.  Especially when, you know, they're being forced to make it in a roomful of armed and unsympathetic templars who want them to decide right now.

Moreover, it can hardly be said to be a choice freely made in full knowledge of what it will mean.  There's no way to test for Tranquility--at least prior to the knowledge that it was reversible--so that a mage can make an informed decision. 

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

What a non-Tranquil sees in Tranquility is irrelevent. They're completely ignorant and uninformed about what being Tranquil actually means, because the Tranquil, lacking emotions, are unable to adequately communicate how it feels. Nobody can know if they really want to be Tranquil until they experience it first-hand, and the only way anyone on the outside can be sure that they really want it is to undo it so they can ask them if they are sure.

As it is, the only two people who've ever been de-Tranquiled begged to die rather than return to that state. That's not enough evidence to draw a conclusion, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.

On that, I can certainly agree. It nearly broke my heart reading Pharamond's reaction to Justinia's announcement.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

What a non-Tranquil sees in Tranquility is irrelevent. They're completely ignorant and uninformed about what being Tranquil actually means, because the Tranquil, lacking emotions, are unable to adequately communicate how it feels. Nobody can know if they really want to be Tranquil until they experience it first-hand, and the only way anyone on the outside can be sure that they really want it is to undo it so they can ask them if they are sure.

As it is, the only two people who've ever been de-Tranquiled begged to die rather than return to that state. That's not enough evidence to draw a conclusion, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.

You are telling people that non-tranquil shouldn't have their view on it taken into consideration because it is irrelevant. But in your next sentence you say the tranquil aren't fit to speak for themselves or say what it is they want, and that the only way to know is to force them to become like us to make the judgement we can understand.

So basically force them to change back to ask them if they want to change back in the first place?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:02 .

[Silfren]

Cheylus wrote...

1) They believe they exist. As you know, Templars were born when the Inquisition merged with the Chantry. Now that the treaty is broken, Templars lost their "legitimacy" and their purpose. People having abilities to hunt mages aren't "templars" anymore. They are like courtisans once you beheaded the king.

Pedantic technicality.  Templars didn't cease to exist and this is a silly point to quibble over, especially when it's likely that many remained with the Chantry.

2) Every people with magic abilities are mages or apostates, depending on the point of view. If you end slavery, slaves only exist for slavers. If you end the Circles, apostates only exist for templars (see 1.).

Er, no.  People with magical abilities are mages, period.  Apostate is a separate distinction referring to whether those mages are kept within Circles or not.  And the Chantry is what defines apostates, not templars.  The templars will probably see all mages as apostates now, with the Circles not existing, and I think the same thing is said in as many words somewhere in the lore.  See my refutation of your first point. 

[

3) No more "harrowing" or "tranquilization" if you prefer.

It remains to be seen whether the Harrowing will continue in some form, though probably it won't be conducted the same way as previously.  As for Tranquilization, exactly what makes you think this has stopped? The templars DO still exist, whatever you say to the contrary, and I don't think they've lost the means of performing the rite on mages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
What response system would you recommend to save Redcliffe, in the context of telegraphs not existing*, any responding Templars/mages limited to the speed a horse can give them, and the problem starting in the equivalent of City Hall? (Seriously, if it were not for the Warden, that place would have been screwed.) Furthermore, can whatever you come up with be practically applied to an area less important than the seat of a relatively high-ranking noble?

* The Circle's Seeing Stones might be an answer to this problem, but I don't know how easy they are to make. For all I know the Circle could be capable of pumping them out fast enough to invent the internet, or they might be a lost technology the Circle understands just well enough to use.

Well, it's too late for Redcliffe. My plan is a long-term overhaul of the Circle and Templar systems, which I perceive as being fundamentally flawed in both theory and practice.

Yes, I know. But it's the best example of the Chantry having a point, so I figure that "what could have prevented this" is a good starting point.

It's multi-faceted, and would likely take years, and, as the pro-Templars are keen to point out, it wouldn't prevent every incident (as if the current one does), but that's because prevention isn't the sole goal of my system. I'm not interested in preserving a ****ty society, I want to create a fairer and more equitable one, one that's worth saving when stuff goes wrong.

I'm well aware that the current system doesn't prevent every incident. The main difference is that I'm still prioritizing that, because of the potential costs of even one incident. Thus, when one can be prevented, it has to be.

But for the purposes of your question, the main point is de-centralization. The Circles (and thus, the Templars) are just too isolated. Ideally, there would be, at the very least, a significant magic-policing body in every major population centre, similar to how police stations and fire stations operate in our own world.

That would require a lot of lyrium. Though if practical it should still be done, if only as a safety net. Still, this will result in a smaller force per population center than the concentration camp can provide. (Yes, I'm using that term. While the problem is dire enough that I regard this measure as a potential solution, I'm honest enough to admit that's what it is.)

They would be wholly secular, not operating under any sort of religious authority, nor would they answer to local lords or what-have-you. The difficulty comes in deciding if they should swear fealty to a monarch or other national ruler, or be part of some sort of international bureau, like the Inquisition and the Grey Wardens.

Swearing fealty to a monarch would give that monarch a degree of power I'm not sure I'm comfortable with monarchs having. As for being part of an international bureau, if that can be funded I think it'd be the best option. (I'm not in the habit of prioritizing money over lives, but any money spent needs to come from somewhere.)

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd love to see Owain return - I'd love to see him forcibly detranquilized by supposedly well intentioned mages - and then I'd love to see him slaughter everyone nearby in an uncontrollable rage of emotions as he screams: "Put me back!"

The Codex for the Tranquil states very clearly that a not insignificant number of mages seek Tranquility.

As far as storytelling goes, what they saw in the Tranquil must have been acceptable compared to the predations of demonic entities.

I felt like that was a more in depth concept than rape puppets or whatever nonsense DA 2 offered up.

I too would like to see the different reactions to reversed Tranquility. I thought it was interesting watching Pharamond unable to contain his emotional outbursts.

The unfortunate thing is that Pharamond's example of what happens when you restore a Tranquil to their natural emotional state is a very good argument for not de-Tranquiling any mage.  That, to me, is the tragedy of it: that it may well be too dangerous to restore even those mages who had Tranquility forced on them, whether through straight up force or simply through the lack of being given a free choice.

I maintain that it would be kinder and more honest to simply kill mages than to offer them the option of Tranquility as if this is some magnanimous mercy being offered.

[Cheylus]

1) Are cops still cops when they give up their insigns? No. They're vigilantes, milicia, etc. Same with templars.
2) That's exactly what I was saying. Apostates existed when the Circle existed. Circles don't exist anymore, there are no such thing as apostates except for delusionnal "templars". All mages are apostates for the "templars" and the Chantry; for everyone else, they are only "mages". Before that, you had both apostates and mages.
3) Templars has lost the authority and the right to perform the Harrowing. They are vigilante. If they perform harrowings, it's as outlaws, if the Chantry -still- dictates "law".

Modifié par Cheylus, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:14 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
But for the purposes of your question, the main point is de-centralization. The Circles (and thus, the Templars) are just too isolated. Ideally, there would be, at the very least, a significant magic-policing body in every major population centre, similar to how police stations and fire stations operate in our own world.

But there already is. There is a Chantry present in every major population centre and every Chantry will always have Templar to guard it and respond to threats to the population.
Denerim had Templars, Lothering had Templars, Kirkwall had Templars, Amaranthine had Templars, Val-Royeaux had Templars. Truthfully, the only major population centre we've seen without a number of Templars was Redcliff and it's possible they were present but died defending the village.
It's just not effective.

How can it be said to not be effective? You speak as if the experiment has already been tried, with mages living in the community and templars being stationed in those communities to address the possible abuses of magic.  The reality is quite otherwise: those templars stationed with Chantries weren't patrolling the streets or working with local guards as specialized forces, and the mages within any given locale were taken away to the Circles and watched by templars in a different location.  In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

Modifié par Silfren, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

Wait, really? And when was this? Do you mean she dismissed them from the castle when it became clear Connor had magic, or did she send them to search for the Ashes?

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
You are telling people that non-tranquil shouldn't have their view on it taken into consideration because it is irrelevant. But in your next sentence you say the tranquil aren't fit to speak for themselves or say what it is they want, and that the only way to know is to force them to become like us to make the judgement we can understand.

So basically force them to change back to ask them if they want to change back in the first place?

When you reduce my argument like that... it actually still makes complete and total sense. So, yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

Give people who opt for tranquility a brief test period before returning them to their natural state so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not they wish to proceed.

Like how universities give students a grace period, during which time they can opt to change or drop out of classes without incurring the enrollment fee. Because you don't know if you'll like something until you try it, and in order for the Tranquil to be sure they like being Tranquil, they need to be able to re-examine the experience with all their critical faculties intact, including emotions.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:20 .

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What a non-Tranquil sees in Tranquility is irrelevent. They're completely ignorant and uninformed about what being Tranquil actually means, because the Tranquil, lacking emotions, are unable to adequately communicate how it feels. Nobody can know if they really want to be Tranquil until they experience it first-hand, and the only way anyone on the outside can be sure that they really want it is to undo it so they can ask them if they are sure.

As it is, the only two people who've ever been de-Tranquiled begged to die rather than return to that state. That's not enough evidence to draw a conclusion, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.

You are telling people that non-tranquil shouldn't have their view on it taken into consideration because it is irrelevant. But in your next sentence you say the tranquil aren't fit to speak for themselves or say what it is they want, and that the only way to know is to force them to become like us to make the judgement we can understand.

So basically force them to change back to ask them if they want to change back in the first place?

What's being said is that people who have never been Tranquiled do not and cannot make an informed choice because they have no means of comprehending what Tranquility is like.  People who ARE Tranquiled can describe it, but only from a roboticized, emotionless state, which a person with the capacity for emotion simply will not be able to appreciate.

The only way for a person to truly be said to grasp it is to put them through the Rite, let it last for, say, five minutes and then de-Tranquil them so that from there, they can make an informed decision.

[Hellion Rex]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

Wait, really? And when was this? Do you mean she dismissed them from the castle when it became clear Connor had magic, or did she send them to search for the Ashes?

I think it might have been a bit of both. Connor was already being trained by Jowan at that point probably, so it would stand to reason that she might have sent the Templars away both so that Connor would go unnoticed and so they could search for Eamon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
You are telling people that non-tranquil shouldn't have their view on it taken into consideration because it is irrelevant. But in your next sentence you say the tranquil aren't fit to speak for themselves or say what it is they want, and that the only way to know is to force them to become like us to make the judgement we can understand.

So basically force them to change back to ask them if they want to change back in the first place?

When you reduce my argument like that... it actually still makes complete and total sense. So, yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

GIve people who opt for tranquility a brief test period before returning them to their natural state so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not they wish to proceed.

Like how universities give students a grace period, during which time they can opt to change or drop out of classes without incurring the enrollment fee. Because you don't know if you'll like something until you try it, and in order for the Tranquil to be sure they like being Tranquil, they need to be able to re-examine the experience with all their critical faculties intact, including emotions.

Except that the main pain of being Tranquil is being turned back. The Tranquil themselves don't notice.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
You are telling people that non-tranquil shouldn't have their view on it taken into consideration because it is irrelevant. But in your next sentence you say the tranquil aren't fit to speak for themselves or say what it is they want, and that the only way to know is to force them to become like us to make the judgement we can understand.

So basically force them to change back to ask them if they want to change back in the first place?

When you reduce my argument like that... it actually still makes complete and total sense. So, yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

GIve people who opt for tranquility a brief test period before returning them to their natural state so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not they wish to proceed.

Like how universities give students a grace period, during which time they can opt to change or drop out of classes without incurring the enrollment fee. Because you don't know if you'll like something until you try it, and in order for the Tranquil to be sure they like being Tranquil, they need to be able to re-examine the experience with all their critical faculties intact, including emotions.

Except that the main pain of being Tranquil is being turned back. The Tranquil themselves don't notice.

With only two test cases, I don't think that's clear at all.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
What response system would you recommend to save Redcliffe, in the context of telegraphs not existing*, any responding Templars/mages limited to the speed a horse can give them, and the problem starting in the equivalent of City Hall? (Seriously, if it were not for the Warden, that place would have been screwed.) Furthermore, can whatever you come up with be practically applied to an area less important than the seat of a relatively high-ranking noble?

* The Circle's Seeing Stones might be an answer to this problem, but I don't know how easy they are to make. For all I know the Circle could be capable of pumping them out fast enough to invent the internet, or they might be a lost technology the Circle understands just well enough to use.

Well, it's too late for Redcliffe. My plan is a long-term overhaul of the Circle and Templar systems, which I perceive as being fundamentally flawed in both theory and practice.

Yes, I know. But it's the best example of the Chantry having a point, so I figure that "what could have prevented this" is a good starting point.

I strongly disagree that this is an example of the Chantry having a point.  When you consider that Isolde's reason for not wanting her child to go into the Circle is because she fears having her son taken away from her, I think it is much more of an argument against creating an environment of fear and ignorance where parents are provoked into keep their mage children a secret out of fear of losing them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Except that the main pain of being Tranquil is being turned back. The Tranquil themselves don't notice.

With only two test cases, I don't think that's clear at all.

We only have two test cases for being turned back. That's not the same as the Tranquil who haven't been reverted losing the ability to express their lack of horror at the situation. Try the Codex entry "Journal Of The Tranquil." If you want it first-hand, try the Tranquil in Origins.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 04 décembre 2013 - 12:27 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

I strongly disagree that this is an example of the Chantry having a point.  When you consider that Isolde's reason for not wanting her child to go into the Circle is because she fears having her son taken away from her, I think it is much more of an argument against creating an environment of fear and ignorance where parents are provoked into keep their mage children a secret out of fear of losing them.

What I meant to communicate was that the Chantry more or less understands the threat an abomination can pose, which might otherwise be in dispute what with their claim that entire cities have fallen to them.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

Wait, really? And when was this? Do you mean she dismissed them from the castle when it became clear Connor had magic, or did she send them to search for the Ashes?

She sent them on the quest to find the Urn of Sacred Ashes, yes.

[Volus Warlord]

Really? A totalitarian police state?


Do you not even know what that means and are going for sound bite, or are you obscenely delusional?

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
How can it be said to not be effective? You speak as if the experiment has already been tried, with mages living in the community and templars being stationed in those communities to address the possible abuses of magic.  The reality is quite otherwise: those templars stationed with Chantries weren't patrolling the streets or working with local guards as specialized forces, and the mages within any given locale were taken away to the Circles and watched by templars in a different location.  In Redcliffe it is specifically pointed out that Isolde sent the templars away.

It was; there were at least 3 ages between the creation of the Chantry and the inception of the Circle and it was still deemed necessary.
Simple logic. It's the fact that the number of mages amongst populations is diminished to a hidden few that allows Templars to react to them more efficiently; increase the number of mages and you increase the number of threats Templars must react to as well as the number of people exposed to the threats.
Despite all of these Templars present at every major population center, Meredith's sister still became possessed and killed over seventy people. Now, imagine if mage kids in her circunstances were a common and perfectly acceptable ocurrence.

The Templars in the cities are a back up in case there are apostates outside of the Circles; plus they're likely meant to monitor for kids whose powers are just beginning to surface. They're not meant to nor can they be expected to effectively police hundreds of mages that have potential victims wherever they look (remember that magical abuse can be very subtle); much less police isolated villages. It's better to just keep the mages away from the population centers in the first place.